A controversial takes on low cost speakers with a lesson...
A controversial takes on 5 speakers comparison with an acoustic lesson few will catch:
This curious thread is about acoustics not about speakers brand name... Then it is not a "curious " thread but an acoustics question thread... You are welcome to post your experience about acoustics ... My deepest regards...
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A thing i discovered thinking about the two groups opposing each others in audio: The so called subjectivist and the objectivist was their common ignorance about the importance of the acoustics and psycho-acoustics concepts and parameters because they are focus on the gear frequency response or their "taste" when "hearing" a piece of gear... But the frequency response as analysed by ASR afficionados or as experienced by audiophile ears in a living room dont tell the story that must be tell at all...
Now what means the ratio ASW/LV and why it matters so much more than the price of your speakers.... This is the subject of the thread i begun ....
For example when i did the mechanical tuning of my room to recover the spatial attribute of the sound i ought to be dealing with the trade-off between the frequency responses of the room/speakers for the timbre perception versus the spatial localization of the sounds sources. It was a trade-off an imperfect mechanical game of tuning... I learned a lot... but the only way to do it optimally without losing in this trade -off between timbre accuracy and spatial attributes cannot be mechanical...We need psycho-acoustics measures of the head and inner ears canals and the application of filters which will makes us able to recover the loss of acoustic information which is there in the recording but lost in the speakers/ room stereo unnatural situation ...
This is why it is very important for any audiophile to read articles by Dr. Edgar Choueiri to understand clearly the acoustic challenge at play, especially if unlike me you have not the time , the dedicated room and you are not interested in investing so much time in the tuning of a room mechanically...
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Imagine you yourself start a serious thread and few harassing posters tried to derail it... Imagine my only post in this thread of yours is about how dumb the youtube video which you used is, so dumb that this youtuber is certainly trolling us... Then if you put yourself in my shoes won’t you feel attacked as the OP of this thread by me posting as an answer that you had just post a so evidently dumb video designed probably by a troll ?
Go elsewhere if you are not interested by acoustics... And dont play the surprize game ....it is called hypocrisy...
I just posted few days ago in a thread of yours without any insinuation a good post answering your question , are you not able to act as a gentleman in the same way ?
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Why the frequency responses of a speakers design is not enough to know the speakers potential peak performance ?
Because of the room frequency response in which it will be working...
But why the room frequency response is not enough to reach the optimal sound quality experience ?
Because there is psycho-acoustics parameters...
Because stereo listening is completely unnatural for our hearing sense...We must use this unnatural situation for the best...
Then What ?
Then you can tune mechanically your room in relation to your own hearing perception...
I did it mechanically using Helmholtz resonators tunable and specifically located grid of resonators...I tuned them on a long period in a self correcting way i had 100....
Doing so i used in a mechanical way the psycho-acoustics principle related to the way each of our ears perceived each speakers timing and location ...
I learn acoustics doing it but it is not esthetical nor practical especially in a living room if you have no time ( i was retired)....
Then the only optimal way is after buying speakers, after doing the minimal acoustics treatment and control you can read Dr. Choueiri articles and methods using psycho-acoustics in a non mechanical way but with specific filters to optimize your speakers/room for your specific hearing...
There is no other way i know of....
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Now i go back to serious matter with a question : If the timing and directionality of reflections are critical, if early lateral reflections boost ASW, while late lateral and rear reflections boost LEV, then no matter which is the price or the design of your speakers, there are acoustical parameters that makes us able to transform completely our reviewing impressions about any speakers, then what matter the most acoustics parameters controls or a slight speakers design upgrade or price upgrade ? Knowing how to pose the question is already the answer... This simple discovery by the youtuber of my first video, who seems to be less dumb and of better good faith than some troll post in my thread, was the matter of my thread...
It is evident that each one of us, as the person in my first video, one day each one of us as beginner we discovered that speakers locations and the space we are with transform or had an impact on our evaluation of speakers workings ... Are we dumb because we are able to speak about it and are we troll because we post about this ?
This is why i used this video...
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It is evident that this man in this video is not a mature audiophile but an ordinary beginner not a "troll" as you seem to be with few others here derailling the thread with no positive comment... I did not used this video to troll myself as you insinuated qualifying the video of "dumb video" then attributing this quality by extension to me the OP when i used it to speak about acoustics importance and meanings.... I will takes back the apology i gave you few days ago thinking that you were a good faith person... The underlined part of your post reveal how hypocrital you are and conscious about the way to push the right button to derail my thread with some others which with you banded with... I gave you no respect for that and for your past trolling against me either...
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It seems that some had not understood the lesson this naive audiophile go trough... He discover that room acoustic even if it is only speakers location makes the greatest differences between speakers in a similar bracket price ... Qualifying him of trolling is preposterous... My thread is not, nor this youtube video, motivated by trolling... I have little patience for this accusations by the way....
It is acoustics the greatest factor and the more impactful one ....Especially if we compare speakers in the same bracket price...
As a personal anecdote: My friend own big Magnepan in a living room with no acoustics control... My past speakers Mission in my acoustics controlled room were way better than his Magnepan... To be clear the Magnepan well installed acoustically will beat the hell of my Mission...( but he was only able to produce a wall of sound where i was able to create a sound completely enveloping the listener from all side not because Mission speakers are better than Magnepan, they are not, but because of the power of acoustics parameters control) Then compared to a living room with no acoustic optimization for the Magnepan, my Mission in a very good optimization room for them beat them by a huge margin...
The lesson of this video is a beginners audiophile discover the power of acoustics.. Not the law of diminishing return... Not the overpricing of speakers... Not the way to troll .... It is why i used this video... I dont like accusation of trolling...
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There is a better road than the mechanical tuning of a room with a grid of Helmholtz resonators as i did for sure ( not esthethical and not suited for a living room )... The methods used by Dr. Edgar Choueiri will be more efficient using basic psycho-acoustic laws to compensate for the fundamental flaws of any stereo system if your room is minimally under acoustics control ( the right balance between absorption/reflection/diffusion)...
Those interested by acoustics with stereo system must read his articles... Those interested by acoustics experiments must read about sound waves reflection controls lateral and back reflection powerful impact and pressure zone distribution control with Helmholtz resonators...
Upgrading may be useless if you ignore acoustics....
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For physical acoustics: Any presence of a phantom speaker phantom Speaker a +speaker A and speaker B + phantom speaker b is the result of distortion caused by "speaker boundary interference effect" as well explained by my first acoustician video...
For psycho-acoustics: We have 2 ears : then the speaker A will create by time delay for each ear a phantom speaker image a and the same for speaker B and his image b for the other ear...
Then the phantom image of speakers is not only the result of acoustical physical conditions but result in a stereo system by the way each ears will perceive each speakers with a time delay...
These facts illustrate how complex is small room acoustics and i used these facts with great result creating an holographical surround space with my stereo system...
In a word distortion is not a simple negative physical fact resulting from boundary interference effect but result also of our body organization (2 Ears) perceiving unnaturally the same sound from 2 sources (stereo system) ... We must not simply eliminate distortion then , we must learn how to control it in our system/room....
It is not enough to understand physical acoustics, we must understand basic psycho-acoustics and learn how to use it... This is why the balance ratio between LEV and ASW, between listener envelopment parameters and source width parameters ask for more knowledge (reflections controls and pressure zones distribution controls) than just basic physical acoustics about speakers placement as illustrated by my first acoustician video...
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The acoustics principles are not only ignored but the way we can use them concretely are very complex to master in all their interaction... For example how can we act on the acoustical material content of a room , with his peculiar geometry,topology, to create a balance ratio between the listener envelopment and the apparent width of the sound source ? How can we use the reverberation time to do this? Why are we in the obligation to investigate how do this instead of upgrading without end ? A good gear piece design cannot replace acoustics controls, this is why. I have my own answer to this appropriate for my room and ears. There is many other answers possible... Acoustics of small room is very complex matter, only ignorant can claim as above that everybody know this...Buying acoustics panels is not enough in most room case by the way .... If those bashing the youtuber of my video and myself because we are faulty to suggest a reflection road about a complex problem, if those can understand even the way to pose the problem and know already the answer, they can answer for the benefit of all or go on insulting me and others giving sarcasms instead of thinking...
By the way laoman come in any thread i answer with insults even few times in my private mail since more than one year... His history contribution of attacks is easy to see if you go back in his posts history...
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Now i will suggest a three minute videos by a pro-acoustician to understand why the balance between diffusion/absorption/reflection matter... This video do not cover the way we can use reflection....It only set the stage...
But this explain why our youtuber in the first video was flabbergasted by the speakers difference in slight different location...Imagine now larger acoustic difference and the huge impact of other parameters than just location ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYt10zrclQ
My three videos are only a beginning of thinking about the basics... I will wait for others impressions...
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Now an interesting 5 minute video with an acoustician about an underestimated problem well explained : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6N3uXxdYFs
Now this 5 minute is very basic.... It takes me a long time to use this pressures zones and reflections... I did not had the knowledge of this acoustician, i learn it bit by bit, i only experimented in my room for 2 years 7 Day on 7 and learn how to use these zones to my liking ... This is way more important most of the times than the difference of price between 2 speakers, as illustrated by the youtuber discovering it in my first video....
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I just started a thread using an interesting video with a simple lesson, valuable for many... (By the way there is way more in acoustics concepts than placing speakers but it is a beginning ) Then comes someone mocking the youtuber and Andrew Robinson,me for using this video of a sincere ordinary perso0n relating his experience and this with nothing of value in his post... I answered it, explaining why attacking people for the sake of it instead of thinking is stupid... Now , you had already few times attacked my character in the past and now with no arguments pertaining to this thread , and you come again "psychanalysing" my right to answer... Who pollute this questioning thread ? me ? Rest assure i dont have any persecution complex, simply many people gangbang the one who is a bit different... My thread is adressing a question... If you are not here to answer it why are you here doctor ? For a gangbang ? I am interested to discuss the astonishing many ways acoustics parameters impact any speakers evaluation.. If i start another thread by chance, will you come again after another who will mock another youtuber,and me using it with the same "psychanalysis" or will you use your brain for thinking instead of veiled sarcasms, false politeness, allusions etc ? That is my question for you...
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I appreciated reading your wise and interesting post... Thanks buellrider97.. By the way i lived through exactly the same experience...
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By the way i posted this video because i recognized myself before studying basic acoustics 20 years ago trying many speakers...
Am i an idiot? No i was ignorant... As most audiophiles are anyway about what makes S.Q. No it is not money, it is basics acoustics experiments among many other basic knowledge which makes a system great .... Then instead of mocking people we must think together not against one another.. It is incredible that i posted an interesting video, and some come attack the youtuber who did the video , and myself because i posted it and Andrew Robinson whom i dont know... Incredible...
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I did not call you stupid... I described as stupid our habit to attacking people as your post illustrate instead of thinking about his discovery lesson... I am direct as you are... but i never attack people... Andrew Robinson or any others...
Then instead of thinking objectively about this naive person interesting experience you mocked him and attack the reason why i can post seriously this video... Who attacked who ? i answered you as you did in a direct way... I appreciate arguments not Ad hominem attack even against unknown people Youtuber or Robinson or myself posting this video lesson... Read the beam in your eye not the straw in others eyes...
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I myself know what "sound" is... I dont give a damn about the industry... This thread is about acoustics education and wise informed purchasing... not about Industrial marketing...
This video will inform beginners to think about before throwing money and study basics acoustics BEFORE upgrading... A lesson i learned alone, because no one taught this in audio thread save to sell acoustics panels conflated with acoustics science... i wish someone had taught me 40 years ago....
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I take him seriously.... Because coming in audio thread for decade i read all day long people throwing money on brand name but never saying anything about acoustics concepts... It is easy to mock him as an uneducated audiophile... I prefer to think than mock people... His experience tell us something we cannot dismiss with sarcasm if we are not stupid and pointing him scapegoating him for our own deafness and blindness... I put this video because of his "naive" takes on speakers and his genuine surprize about the POWER of acoustics... Now imagine he knows everything there is to know about Helmholtz resonator... Imagine he begin experiment with his low cost speakers...instead of "upgrading"...Before "upgrading" ... Instead of mocking someone think and think again...
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