Upgrade your DAC. In my experience the DAC has 95% of the sound the streamer is really not as important IMO. Find the streamer with the app you like and add a DAC you love.
I did the optimized PC then to a Roon Nucleus and finally an Aurender A10 and no, not worth the upgrades at any stage. If you need Roon to live, then find a Roon server you like but do not buy that overpriced nucleus major disappointment in my experience. (Just open one and see for your self)
The Aurender A10 was ok but to be honest not $7k worth IMO. I don't particularly like the DAC in it its rather boring. If i was really honest my prior Schiit Grunder milti bit DAC ($1200usd) was far better musically then the internal DAC in the A10. Streaming wise the Aurender is ok the app is a bit finicky IMO, but an upgrade over the Roon Nucleus for sure.
Personally, I would not do it again knowing what i know now. I would have got a streamer i liked the app for and upgraded my DAC.
Really my experience shows a dedicated and optimizes PC/Apple based computer is far better than any dedicated streamer I've used. The catch here is it has to be optimized for audio streaming and nothing else.
anyway, your milage may very but that's my experience so far with streamers.
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I went from a node with dac to a new streamer and new dac and very happy. Pretty big jump up for sure. Using the Zen Stream with aftermarket LPS.
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Upgrade your DAC. In my experience the DAC has 95% of the sound the streamer is really not as important IMO.
@glennewdick While I see how in your situation and with your streamers this could be the result, my experience is upgrading a streamer is at least as impactful as upgrading a DAC. IME everything matters, and matters significantly in a streaming setup. If I was recommending to someone how to build a good streaming setup I’d recommend something like a 50/50 split between spending on a DAC and streamer. Again, just my experience FWIW.
Would anyone make the argument that an Innuos Zen mini is an upgrade over an N100?
No The proper comparison would be with an Innuos Zen.
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I have owned both the Aurender N100, and the Innuos Zen Mini.
I ended up with the Innuos because it allows me to integrate 2 systems, whereas the Aurender does not.
Both are very good units. If you don't need to add other systems, and don't mind being locked into either Qobuz or Tidal, then the Aurender makes sense.
For me, I like to have more options. The Innuos allows you to use Roon- which I find to be quite a nice piece of software. And, though I hate to pay for more stuff, I really think it does a remarkable job of doing a lot of things in an easy to use package.
If you want a streamer with a lot of options, the Bluesound Node is probably the best one out there. Though I would get a nice DAC. Well, I would get as good a DAC, as possible for any of the choices I have given.
Bob
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Glennewdick is dead on. I will save you the long speech about my experience, just look at my house of stereo system. My streaming is now awesome without adding any expensive streamer. Just upgraded the NODE 130.
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As far as DAC, upgraded from Aries 2 to Gustard X26 PRO.
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Latest Node 130 works extremely well as long as you match it to a proper DAC
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I think you pose a good question. It has not been addressed directly. I will try a bit better.
I looked at reviews of the Inuous. I have to say researching many streamers and owning a Aurlic Aries G2, and Aurender N100, N10 and W20SE, I would go with the Aurender. They are top notch sounding streamers from a company that only does streamers. I can’t recommend them enough. My Aurender W20SE and Audio Research Reference DAC CD9 sound equivalent to my Top notch $45K vinyl end. I think that shows what Aurender is capable of.
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@scottya118
The short answer is NO. This would be a lateral move at best, if that! IMO, N100 is better than Zen Mini. Having said that, to get the best out of N100; the quality of DAC, USB & PC cabling and rest of the system is just as important.
At moderately priced level, there are so many options to put together a decent sounding digital streaming front end. The devil is in the details. What have you done to optimize your Ethernet i.e. the connection between your router and streamer?
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I’m using a SMSL SD-9 streamer and a Musician Pegasus DAC. The pair are awesome performers, and the streamer connects to the internet wired or wirelessly and provides access to Tidal and Qobuz. The Streamer supports Optiical, Coaxial, AES, Bluetooth, USB, I2S outputs to the DAC. The streamer is only 399, and the DAC only 1199 and they sound great together. I would get a separate DAC, as that will have the greatest influence on sound quality.
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One of the first things I did when I got my Vault 2i was to plug it into my existing DAC. It was an improvement, but like we all often do. I upgraded the DAC. I enjoyed it for a while then I spent a little over $3k on my current DAC. It sounds phenomenal, best sounding source component I have ever owned.
I wasn't in the market really for a streamer, not at the moment. However I did a trade plus cash deal that let me jump into a brand new Aurender N200 for only $750 out of pocket. It's a great machine. Sounds excellent with my DAC and driving my headphone DAC also with it's dual outputs. Easy to add songs via PC , build quality is over the top... built like a tank. I love it and it's good enough to pair with an even better DAC down the road
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Vault / Node is a really good value when you factor user interface, features , sound. Hard to beat.
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I have a Holo May KTE DAC, very happy with that. So getting a good DAC is paramount. Then I find all streamers sound different. I’m using a LUMIN U2 Mini, which I like a lot. The app is good too. It sounds a lot better with a cleaned up Ethernet connection.
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"... my experience is upgrading a streamer is at least as impactful as upgrading a DAC."
So ... what you’re saying is that, given the same (uncompressed) source file, different streamers send different bits and bytes to the DAC? I can’t believe that to be the case.
One might be able to hear the dfference between compression rates, but even that is hard ... find out if you have a 100% score below.
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My buddy works for a local dealer. His advice to me was that the Auralic was a better sounding unit. That being said, the sound comes mainly from the DAC. The DACs mentioned here IMO just standard mid-level DACs.
Happy Listening.
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Talking about moderately priced streamers, has anyone tried the Ifi NEO Stream? It’s relatively new and I haven’t seen many reviews
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So ... what you’re saying is that, given the same (uncompressed) source file, different streamers send different bits and bytes to the DAC? I can’t believe that to be the case.
@rudyb You’re free to “believe” whatever you want, but there’s more to it than just sending “bits and bytes,” not the least of which is the elimination of noise, which is the mortal enemy in streaming. Most people here will tell you streamers make a big difference in the ultimate performance of a streaming system, and I suggest you try it yourself instead of relying on a belief.
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Let me rephrase ... I know that not to be the case. A 'high end' streamer still streams the same digital data to my DAC as my tablet or PC or Bluesound Node does. If I suffered from noise, I'd invest a little in an optical cable, or a galvanic separated USB dongle.
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Let me rephrase ... I know that not to be the case. A 'high end' streamer still streams the same digital data to my DAC as my tablet or PC or Bluesound Node does. If I suffered from noise, I'd invest a little in an optical cable, or a galvanic separated USB dongle.
@rudyb What streamer are you using, and how exactly do you “know” you’re performance isn’t being compromised by noise (I think the more accurate descriptor here would again be “believe” rather than “know”)? I started streaming from my iPad and upgrading even to a modest iFi Zen Stream brought my streaming to an entirely higher level in every way. And streaming from a PC is fraught with noise and if you think that’s a suitable way to get good streaming performance, well, I think we know what we have here.
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@soix Let me first say there’s no need for us to quarrel. If someone hears an improvement after upgrading to a more expensive streamer, then that’s great.
I doubt though that such improvement has anything to do with the digital data. Playing from disk, or USB drive, or NAS, the data that reaches the DAC is exactly the same, no matter what streamer is in between. If it isn’t, there would be cracks and pops or hiccups.
And if the data is streamed over the internet, coming from the other side of the globe, it already passed countless hubs, switches, servers, repeaters, amplifiers, routers and what have you, before it reached our home … still it is the same data.
Streamers can’t generate an ’improved soundstage’ or ’deeper bass’ if that information is not already encoded in the digital stream in the first place. For the same reason I also don’t believe in ’audiophile’ ethernet- or USB cables … it really is exactly the same data that comes out. We can both read this text without the characters being messed up, the bytes all reached our screen perfectly well, with Megabyte or even Gigabyte speed.
FYI I use a Bluesound Node Mk2 with my main system. A dedicated fanless PC with my second system. And a ’high end’ (not audiophile high end, but digital high end) PC for synth and DAW music production, with two powered studio monitors. Besides the BS Node I use two DACs. With the powered monitors I suffered from digital noise, which was eliminated by using a galvanic separation between PC USB out to DAC.
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@rudyb I absolutely agree with not quarreling.
You present a reasonable argument why streamers should not make a big difference. I told myself that for years. I streamed with every conceivable device.
Then I finally took home a reasonable mid-level streamer (Auralic Aries G2)… jaw drop, and all that theory went out the window. The problem is, in the real world it is not true.
The streamer is like a turntable in… if you do not have a great source… it doesn’t get any better. Now having owned streamers from the $3K range to over $20K… the streamer is absolutely critical in the playback.
My most expensive component is my Streamer.. to which non-dedicated devices cannot hold a candle… assuming you are being reasonable and not pairing a $200 streamer against a $2,000 carefully optimized PC… or some stacked comparison.
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@soix Let me first say there’s no need for us to quarrel...I use a Bluesound Node Mk2 with my main system.
@rudyb Wow, a Node Mk2!!! I can certainly see why you think you don’t have a noise problem. Good luck with that. Heh heh. I refer to @ghdprentice above.
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@scottya118, IMHO having the best DAC that you can afford with the cleanest power is far more important than looking for a streamer that can supposedly do everything. I use a Chord Hugo TT2 DAC with a Chord M Scaler that use Nick Bacon’s excellent WAVE Storm BNC interconnects. Both have their own linear power supply units that are plugged into an AudioQuest Niagara power conditioner.
I use a simple Roon Nucleus music streamer with its own LPSU because all I needed was a small dedicated computer to help me navigate through the millions of tracks available to be streamed over the internet. I didn’t want another multi thousand dollar box with its own internal filters, a display screen, and that weighed several kilos between me and my music. The Nucleus is just a pass thru for the internet signal. It’s what’s in front of it coming from my router, and what’s behind it going to my M Scaler that makes the real difference in sound quality in my system. And as @richtruss said, things sound a whole lot better with a cleaned up Ethernet connection.
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@ghdprentice Thank you for an as reasonable written contribution.
@soix I'm happy with my Node.
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Get the node and add an external LPS and a separate DAC.
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@cwatters0 I've heard it (the iFi NEO Stream) uses the same software as the iFi Zen Stream, so I wonder if it too is hampered by Wi-Fi connection issues or must be used wired? Would be good to know.
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@rudyb Its fine you’re happy with your Node, but don’t come in here overconfidently spewing crap you think you “know” when you’ve obviously no idea what you’re talking about. That might fly on ASR or Reddit, but people here are more knowledgeable and experienced so better to be a little more measured than coming in here telling us what you supposedly “know.” It comes across as both arrogant and ignorant. My advice — try a Lumin, Innuos, Aurender, Aries, etc. and then reassess what you think you “know” and if you’re still happy with your Node. I bet not.
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Maybe this is a good read: Denon USB DAC whitepaper.
If one follows these guidelines, digital audio will reach the USB DAC ’bit-perfect’, as Denon calls it. It can’t get any more perfect than that can it?
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@rudyb thanks for that link. It will help me teach some friends about setting up JRiver...Cool.
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You're welcome moonwatcher and thanks for taking the effort to reply.
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If one follows these guidelines, digital audio will reach the USB DAC ’bit-perfect’, as Denon calls it. It can’t get any more perfect than that can it?
Ugh. 🙄
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@moonwatcher any comment on the sound quality of the neo stream?
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@cwatters0 I've not heard it, I was only offering that software observation based on a YouTube video I watched that stated that it did run the same software as the Zen.
When I heard that, I stopped watching. I don't have an easy or elegant way to feed an Ethernet cable into my listening room, so a solid wireless connection is paramount to me.
Many have bemoaned that iFi hasn't yet updated the Zen to be better in that regard, otherwise they'd have a true winner on their hands at its price point. I would hope the NEO Stream would even be better. Good luck if you purchase one.
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@cwatters0 on paper at least the Zen NEO Stream looks great, a reasonable jump from a Bluesound Node (as it should be at over twice the cost). The onboard DAC seems to offer a lot, even outputting DSD files directly to analog without first converting them to PCM.
But it still comes down to ease of use without aggravation. No matter how good the hardware is, if it isn’t easy, fun, and reliable to use, then I’d rather have a slightly lower quality sounding device that is easy, fun, and reliable to use.
When I come home from work, I want to blow off stress and listen to music. I don’t want to have to spend an hour troubleshooting devices or having to second guess software. iFi seems to have some great devices from their Zen series to now, the NEO series, but in terms of user functionality, they need to get with it.
It is beyond maddening that a cheap $99 WiiM Mini Streamer has better user interface software and better Wi-Fi connection than devices costing much more. Dumb.
I’ve had my eye on the Zen Stream since it came out, wanting to pair it with a "decent" DAC, but am waiting on some reviewers to say that "yes", the Wi-Fi connection issues have been fixed.
Till then, the seemingly best low cost solution is to buy an easy to use, easy to love Bluesound Node and never use its onboard DAC, but rather feed an external one that is demonstrably better, maybe the Denafrips Ares II or a Schuman Ladder (if you want better bass). Pity.
My budget for a streamer and DAC or a streamer/DAC is capped around $2500. I’m 64, my hearing rolls off at 13,000 Hz and have a touch of 8000 Hz tinnitus, so I tap out at that level of quality and can call it a day. More power to those who have better ears and deeper wallets. Enjoy.
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@rudyb - Thank you for sharing the link of the NPR site. Great web link they have created for listening test. I listen using my headphone (as always recommended for this purpose, good one) and, I got to admit, I could hardly discern the differences. Maybe my ears need to be tuned / trained. I had similar experience in listening with the compressed files such as AAC streamed from Youtube against the hi-rez. flac 16/44.1, 24/96 or even 24/192 files.
I understood you are just sharing / exchanging the information in this platform. Appreciated. Don't be intimidated with or bothered / discouraged by some unkind words. We could agree to disagree while keeping good manners ...
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@temmple what DAC did you end up pairing with the Zen Stream? To your ears does the Zen Stream feeding that DAC sound better than the Node feeding the same DAC? How would you characterize the sonic difference? Does it have something to do with the noise floor? Thanks.
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I have owned/own Aurender, Innuos ZenMini, and Nucleus+. Aurender sounds very good for the money "out of the box". ZenMini and Nucleus both must have external Linear Power Supplies added but then both of them sound excellent. All 3 in this configuration offer excellent sound and value for the money.
My issue with the Aurender are the limits of the Conductor app. Backup and editing of Meta data are challenging at best as well as integration with external NAS. The Aurender Sense App is similar in functionality to the Conductor app but backup and Meta data editing are a breeze as is integration with external NAS or additional hardrives.
I find Roon to be exceptional and best setup uses a Nucleus(or Nucleus +) as the "core" with an internal SSD hard-drive feeding Innuos as a Roon endpoint. In fact Innuos has released a line of streamers (Pulse) setup for this specific configuration and though I have not yet auditioned the Pulse, I expect that it will excel as the rest of the Innuos line.
I have not yet updated my network switch but others I respect have found this is critical to getting the best out of any of these systems.
Solely because of the integration with Roon, external play, editing and backup considerations, I would highly recommend ZenMini. It is a bonus that you can add the LPSU separately to break up the cost.
Good luck!
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The Innuos Sense App is fantastic.
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When I heard that, I stopped watching. I don't have an easy or elegant way to feed an Ethernet cable into my listening room, so a solid wireless connection is paramount to me.
@cwatters0 @moonwatcher A way to both get around the Wi-Fi issues with the Zen Stream and having to run a long Ethernet cable is to use a Wi-Fi extender, and an added bonus is you’ll get better sound than using Wi-Fi. FYI I bought this one but there are many others available…
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MR90E3A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Just plug this into an outlet and run an Ethernet cable from it to the Zen Stream and you’re done. I haven’t been able to set mine up yet, but I’ve heard from several people that this solves the Wi-Fi issues. Hope this helps.
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@soix Thanks. I might consider that Wi-Fi extender (especially one that can do 2600 Mbps). Appreciate it. I hope it works well for you and eliminates aggravation.
Would be best though if iFi would update their devices to work better on Wi-Fi in the first place, since that functionality is part of their marketing to consumers.
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I have posted this before and will do it again. I a/b’d the Bluesound Node2 against an Aurender N100 through the same DAC (at the time the Hegel 190).. I wanted to like the Aurender better because I could get a great deal. After two hours of patient listening I could detect NO difference. And the cheaper Node has a far better user interface that you don’t have to pay for. Of course I still wonder because we are all searching for the holy grail of sound, but so far all I hear is conflicting gobbledegook about which four figure streamer sounds better. I have since upgraded my DAC and that did make a difference as did the upgraded LPS. Adjusting the time clock on the Node was a nice tweak. All of this being said my perception is that higher end streamers do not seem to make any difference. Folks need to do an apples to apples a/b and send out their results
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Would be best though if iFi would update their devices to work better on Wi-Fi in the first place, since that functionality is part of their marketing to consumers
@moonwatcher Amen brother, I’m right there with ya. And I’ll add their complete lack of customer service is downright unforgivable. But, at $399 and the sound quality/$ I was willing to do a workaround rather than punting it off my roof in anger and disgust. But if it gives me any trouble with the extender I’m hitting the roof immediately.
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I agree with the statement that quality of your DAC is far more important than your streamer. After all streamer just sends bits. In my opinion, buying an expensive streamer with internal DAC and using only that device is a mistake because external R2R DACs are far more superior. In my experience I bought relatively inexpensive Bluesound Node streamer and connected to Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC. I think despite price of that combo is very is very similar to Lumin or Aurender, sound is far superior to streamer DAC combo.
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I agree with the statement that the quality of your DAC is far more important than your streamer. After all streamer just sends bits.
@drbay Due respect I couldn’t disagree more. Streamers are instrumental to minimizing noise among other things — the arch enemy of good quality streaming. You’ve got an awesome DAC, and if you think the Node is on the same plane as Lumin, Aurender, Innuos, Aries, etc. I think you’re sorely underestimating the role of a streamer. I’d highly encourage you to try one of these better streamers in your system and see what you think, because IMHO you’re leaving a lot of performance on the table. Just my $0.02 FWIW.
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This is so common an issue. One component is really critical until it at or above the rest of your system… then it is not. If you have a low quality DAC… then, upgrading makes a huge difference. Then, if you upgrade the streamer… OMG, what a difference.
I do not want to take anything away from @soix. He is right. The streamer is critical, unless your DAC I’d the bottleneck.
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I’ll just piggyback on @ghdprentice that in streaming, as with all or audio, the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. But, my experience with streaming this is on steroids, perhaps because the signals are so minuscule and thus susceptible to intubations from noise, timing issues, etc. that it’s amplified 10-fold down the line. Anyone who’s heard an Aurender N20 has been overwhelmed by its sonic benefits, so for you to say a Node is adequate with your awesome DAC, no — just no. Again, try a better streamer that is much more befitting your DAC.
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I'll jump on the pigs back too. Been there, done that. Get a good streamer and see what you've been missing.
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I had a very good experience upgrade a Bluesound Node 2i with the Fidelity Audio PSU replacement module and running the next-to-best FA LPS. It was a significant and obvious improvement in SQ. So when the NODE 130 came out I ordered it directly from FA with the PSU module and an added clock board (pretty affordable as you don’t pay VAT if you are in the US) and found that that unit was obviously better in SQ than my modified 2i. ( BTW, when discussing the value of Bluesound streamers, everyone needs to specify which one is being discussed, as almost everyone who has heard both thinks the NODE 130 sounds better than the 2i ). That being said, I recently added a Gustard X26 DAC which makes the whole thing sound better, but did end up tweaking that a bit more with a good USB cable. I think a modified NODE 130 is a very good streamer/DAC unit, and because of the friendliness of the interface, makes a very good streamer to use with with an external DAC. I think exclusive of power cords and the USB cable, my pimped 130 with LPSU was about $1500, with the Gustard X26 adding another $1600.
I know some may be skeptical, but when I was auditioning speakers in the showroom with a comparable amp/pre setup to what I have at home, using a $3000 streaming/DAC, and there was no let down when I played the new speakers at home with the pimped 130 (before I added the Gustard).
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+1 or 2 or 3 on how a good streamer will improve a good /DAC. At first the new DAC is so good you are sure you are there. I thought this with my Tambaqui which replaced an Auralic Vega. Nirvana. Later I added an Aries G2.1 streamer and it got significantly better.
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