a 3 way design speaker with the ESS Heil type sound
I have tried Klipsch RF-7 lll, ADS 780,880, 1290 ll, 1590 ll, ESS 3 ways with HEIL, and Daedalus Speakers. I still own all of these. Is there a speaker with the bass slam and dynamics of Klipsch RF-7 lll, and the midrange and tweeter sound of ESS HEIL, that is as beautiful, efficient, and easy to drive as Daedalus Speakers??
I have VPI prime. AT 760 SLC mm, and Sumiko Blackbird HOMC. Phono preamp is Ayre P-5xe. I run balanced out. I also have a Graham Slee Accession.
I use my Line Magnetic LM-515 CD player with balanced outputs. I like the sound. Great bass and extension. No fatigue with tube buffer output.
I have a Marantz SACD 30n for streaming, and SACD use. The Marantz is definitely a weak link.
I have Simaudio 740P balance into Simaudio 760A.
kinda dry sounding. Thinking this magic unicorn speaker (if existed) would solve my problem.
or do I need a good tube preamp??
looking for advice
op legacy focus why heil tweeter and midrange 94 db efficiency double carbon fire and silk midrange drivers for tremendous slam two 12inch woofers rated flat to 18hz known for great clarity incredible dynamics and very deep bass. and a huge soundstage
dave and Troy Audio intellect NJ ESS AMT1d owner and legacy dealer | ||||||||||||||||||||
AMT3s are di-pole, the air motion transformer electrostatic diaphragm sound you are appreciating, the design, and driver configuration is not easily replicated today. I completely designed my own version ground up with dual 8" Nomex woofers in place of the midrange and slow woofers from the originals. Requires all new crossovers to get the best out of the AMT and blending the woofer(s) or midrange properly. Few do the 3-way copies well imo. Keep in mind you are familiar to the older AMT sound, me too. I worked at ESS early 80s, an much better parts since. Few others presented will equal the TYPE of di-pole AMT sound you like now. With your mention of Klispch, I suspect you’re just looking for the faster midrange and woofers speed. Lots of people try AMTs and few do it well. PAP, Gryphon, Quailo maybe. Mundorf, Beyma, Dayton and others have all created AMTs that are unlike the AMT Great Heil. Each with their own designs and configuration, yet not the same. Looking at your 760 amp, I’d say PAP or Quailo might get you closer. In attempt to equal your AMT3s (if that’s what you truly have), the Quailos open top section might be of interest, or the Pure Audio Project too. Check out Quailio too, check this. You’ll see people walking up behind them at shows trying to capture and listen what’s coming from the front wall. Well, it’s the back side of Di-Pole AMTs. Some of the modern designs use the Mundorf AMTs. Best of Luck.
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Hey @sputz If you have the funds and don’t care about Di-Pole AMTs, one of the best AMT implementations of the AMTs I heard at a show once, >> Gryphon <<. The lower models like the Pantheon 3-ways are are not as efficient, Gryphon Trident, 94db. Likely needs two monobock amps with real current imo,. Large AMT at the center, MTM style configuration like I run with mine today. Drool starts here: https://gryphon-audio.dk/the-collection/loudspeakers/
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I like the PureAudioProject Trio with the Heil tweeter a lot, as well as the Duo speaker which has only one woofer. Both speakers are, however, two-way speakers. I don't know why three-way was specified. The Heil driver is capable of covering a quite large range of frequencies and is most often employed in two-way designs. The Heil driver and the woofers are used in open baffle configuration so that all drivers act as dipole drivers--the rear going sound is in opposite phase to the sound projected forward. Cinnamon Audio offers a three way with the Heil tweeter, also in open baffle configuration. Their speakers are very good sounding but are considerably more expensive than the PureAudioProject speakers. | ||||||||||||||||||||
Post by @larryi above worthy of a few pictures. Some of these are 97db closer to what the OP was looking for. 10ohm tube amp friendly too. Very nice. Could be time to break the wallets out, wow,- or - reserve these for the bucket list. https://cinnamonaudio.com/loudspeakers
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Good question raised by @larryi, why 3-way? This is one of the key attributes of the Heil design; the ability to cover a larger frequency span effectively negating the need for a 3-way (which makes it more challenging then a 2-way to blend all the drivers).
The Pure Audio Project Trio10 Heil's a really special speakers (albeit lower efficiency then for example the Trio15 Voxative) | ||||||||||||||||||||
Wow. I appreciate every single response. Thank you all! Some truly great ideas, and beautiful speakers. I love having my eyes opened. I knew of Qualio Audio. I have been interested in those. I knew of the Monitor Audio Platinum PL-300 series. Heard good things about them, but, was worried my little Simaudio 760a amp with 130 watts at 8 ohms would be enough. Those Cinnamon Audio looks like my unicorn!! My ohhh my. Beautiful! If they sound as good as they look I would be a happy camper! Now, for the sticker shock. I have not heard of that brand. Truly like bass. I must be a bass head ? But with details. I think I am sensitive to metal tweeters and definitely cheap horns. Also, if midrange beams. | ||||||||||||||||||||
This also has a lot to do with your amplifier. Not just the speakers. Also fast mains paired with really good subwoofer(s) for lower-end duties can be a good mix too. Imo, might be time to step up from the SA 760 to another amplifier with some real current and added grip, control of the drivers. As you likely well know that’s a whole separate thread on its own. I’m experimenting with that again now with my own AMTs comparing higher current tube amps, with pure Class A 50w solid state amplification. I might go back to trying other higher current Class A/AB amps again in the next year. There is something about sound pressure with the right amp(s) for powering AMT based loudspeaker systems. | ||||||||||||||||||||
certainly a very constructive and orderly thread…. i always thought the magic of the real ( my words ) of the O.H. AMT was the large format dipole model. Why 3 way . is the driver can’t do mid bass slam…. 100 ish to 400 ish hz ( also why OP ADS w lovely dome mids can’t do it either )…. so the MTM w mid bass drivers of 7” or so with a sub makes sense…just my .02$…. | ||||||||||||||||||||
Thanks again everyone. Does that midrange work for slam and dynamics? Thought they made use of full range midrange. | ||||||||||||||||||||
I bought a Melton tube amp with P/P KT88s and do not care for it with the Heils. I much prefer my Yamaha RX-Z9 receiver in "Pure Direct" with them. Older recordings prior to reworking the crossovers, but that has no effect on the highs. A quality monitor will easily display the differences. Levels were matched to within 0.2 dBA with pink noise. Some may prefer the "tube sound", but at least in this case, I prefer the solid state. | ||||||||||||||||||||
While I have voiced enthusiasm for open baffle speakers, this does come with the warning that dipole speakers often do not go very deep in bass response because the opposite phase front and back waves tend to cancel each other at progressively increasing amount as frequency goes down. This is true of dipole panel speakers as well. I am not a bass freak so this is not as big a deal to me as it might be to others. | ||||||||||||||||||||
That configuration is darn close to my own custom built setup:
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Certainly worthy of some links to pics. Wow, those are some serious AMTs! Very interesting open-baffle designs. Others coming in April 2025 eh’. Very Cool. https://arionaudio.com/speakers/ Way more than a 3-way, in a line array, huge AMT sound. Holy cow. :)
Three-Way, Five Driver Dipole Full Range Floor Standing Design
2-Ways, smaller
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@larryi , the AMT 1B’s had a single driver on the face facet with a matched diameter passive on the back... If the bass seemed out of phase, it really was the room. And the means to DSP the space with white noise that likely made the neighbors think our vacuum cleaner had been plugged into the wrong plug.... The issue with AMT drivers ’in general’, imho, is matching the response speed of the bass drivers to keep up. My approach is to have a ’mid/high’ 6.5" bass unit(s) and dump the low bass into a healthy sub or 4..... Like the ’look’ of the Line 10’s over the Cinnamons’......the latter would be a tough sell to the sig other.... | ||||||||||||||||||||
....and, at the starting $'s for the 10's, I could diy the entirety's concept. My question would be what 6.5 raw mid would be this crowd's fav.? Not too much 'overlap' at top & bottom....and 'nimble'.... It's/they have a hard act to follow.... ;) | ||||||||||||||||||||
Nice. Seems Piega has a sale going on too for their smaller units. And, speaking of paring smaller/faster drivers with their AMT, and running a sub separately, here it is. A link to the Piega USA site here, and a pic. Enjoying this thread and what y’all find. They’ve got some massive ribbon speakers too, kinda reminds us of the older Infinity line of speakers. Nice to see fun options out here. :) For the OP too... https://www.piegausa.com/products/premium-701-speakers
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Right now they are priced back at $250 each, not per pair Some times they do come up per pair for $250 but its been a moment since | ||||||||||||||||||||
@sputz do you still have your 3-way AMT3s? Or, what did you have, read on if yes. ----- If you still have them and update the crossovers by simply replacing the existing parts, and selecting more sensitive/rigid and responsive woofers and midrange, they can clean up nicely. A few threads over on AK on this, and AMT3s too. Once updated, a nice SS amplifier with added current changes the sound of the Heil, woofers, and midrange with more grip and control. The worst to do is to underpower them. i.e. Running lighter duty 100w vs. 500w amplifiers with dual torroidal output transformers can really wake them up, more responsive, more dynamic. I tried several amps with all of my former AMT-Monitors and AMT-1Cs. A notable difference with higher quality amplifiers or bi-amping AMT-Monitors, AMT3s. | ||||||||||||||||||||
Always a pleasure to read some details and thoughts about the Heil AMT's. @decooney To have it imparted by one who had been in the trenches at ESS is a special treat. ;) Having been a fan of their qualities that span effortlessly over the range produced by a seemingly tiny radiator is modern magic. *S* Along with a new pair, I've an older pair that came with the original Xovers which still work. Replacing at minimum the caps is but one of the projects on my bucket list, as well as bi-amping them. So your comments regarding what watts would work well in the care and feeding are appreciated. *5's* with a +10... I'll have to wander over to AK and give the locals a break from this Walsh Wacko for awhile.. ;) | ||||||||||||||||||||
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To @asvjerry trying again, the last shared photo link did not work. Deleted that post. Trying again, sometimes Google Photos is tricky and fails to present images on Agon. Some inspiration for your upgrade journey, its worth trying :). If you don’t see the photos, it did not work, lol. If you can see it, that’ is two separate crossovers for each speaker, one for the mid woofers and one for the AMT, separately. Won’t ever build these again, way too much work, last bucket list set. Speakers are bi-ampable this way too. Bottom line, these two Nomex 8s work way better than one 12" with a passive radiator. The two keep up with the Heil better and less need to suppress the Heil this way for better blending, matching. Picks up some efficiency too. Tube amps, Class-A solid state lower power amps, it all seems to work. First time I heard these with my big tube amps was a nice surprise. Best of Luck on yours. | ||||||||||||||||||||
*Loud fanfare* Yay, pics! *L* Would one object if I cut to the chase with some outboard X-overs I have? On that latter one, any insights or comments on it would trigger high gratefulness from yours unruly.🤞🙄 Bi-amp is easy, multiple means of splitting off a sub...or not. A/B entire, but I'm a First Watt believer even if no tubes involved...although I wouldn't cringe to own one. 8", huh? Fav of the single driver crewe.... All forward, no back? Curious, given the AMT dipole in cut-away slots...🤷♂️ | ||||||||||||||||||||
Electronics Crossovers: Why not test and try the 2241AM. I have one of those too :), but don’t use it right now. If I had two of the same amps I’d try it again. Maybe some bits to replace inside due to age. Might be a future retirement project redo. Try that if you can, and then compare to your Behringer, w/sub out. That might sound better if you have really good subs. That sounds like a good idea too. Go for it! ------- Rear-V: Re: AMT Di-pole rear "V" design is something I tracked to with another group of engineers when ESS Labs got bought out and was shipped overseas to Europe for a number of years. See ESS 450 below. Saw this in euro and us photos too. ESS generations of the Co: Later they went over brought it all back on containers/boats. I’ve got photos of Transar ATDs in rows that came back to LA stored, argh. Future: At one point I had this dream of waiting til they are done and buying ESS, what was left of it, and bringing it right back to Sacramento CA as my last bucket list retirement project. Good to have dreams. No need, I can build my own now :) I had a local audio chain ask me to manufacture/build them and they would sell them in their hi-fi room. I guess I wanted to keep my designs private, just for me LOL.
------- Another photo for inspiration. :) ESS 450 not regularly seen here in the USA. Hey they even had your vision for 7" drivers with AMT, here it is. ESS Connoisseur Series AMT 450 Loudspeaker
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Back to the OP, hahah, @sputz asked for some 3-ways. These are somewhat unobtanium. Transar ATDs. Posting just for fun. How’s it work, don’t ask...LOL. Bouncing flying-saucers for midrange. Big sub too.
Another I found on the net posted by some lucky bloke.
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Sorry for the historical sidebar posts, :), Back to reality, and for OP @sputz - here is another 3-way AMT https://www.wharfedaleusa.com/collections/elysian/products/elysian-2-bookshelf-speakers |
| Treble: | 3.5" (90mm) Air Motion Transformer |
| Midrange: | 6.0" (150mm) coated fiberglass matrix cone |
| Bass: | 8.5" (220mm) coated fiberglass matrix cone |
| Nominal Impedance: | 4Ω (compatible 8Ω ) |
| Crossover Frequency: | 360Hz, 2.9kHz |
| Frequency Response: | 35Hz ~ 22kHz (+/-3dB) |
| Sensitivity: | 89dB (2.83V @1m) |
| Recommended Amplifier Power: | 25 - 250W |
| Weight: | 67.2lbs |
| Dimensions (HxWxD) | 27.6" x 13.1" x 17.0" |
Splitting hairs and depending on your definition of what a 3-way is, or 2.5 way with internal passive radiators, or the GoldenEar 3 is a 3-way and passives.
https://www.goldenear.com/full-range-tower-speakers/triton-series/triton-three-plus
Ah....wow.
Stunned. @decooney ...If someone could bring back some memories of a chunk
of my audiohistoria, you just did with nearly all of the above.
Filled in some blanks, too.
I actually had the ’pleasure’ of being in a room with the Transar Trio, ’unpleasurable’
in the fact that they were not being played.
Recognized the large Heil’s, sub likely a big woof, but the ’midrange’....WTF?
’K...c/f rods, alum ’bubble wrap’ kinda stuff, driven bottom only top too close to the Heil....?
Price, like the Apogees’ of the era, in a much higher orbit than the parasail kite I flew on the beach. I’m pretty sure it was the 2nd and last S.F. Audio Show.
The second was where I wore hearing protection so I only had to listen properly to what I wanted v. being merely subjected to. The first one was only slightly less crowded, but most of the vendors were playing their wares Loud.
Always different music that flowed into halls, the sound reaching between showrooms a muddle of beats, riffs, creates a headache that one ought to have after having one’s skull vibrated like that.
So you're promoting a Battle of 22's....A piece of ESS history v. the Behr pro upstart? Welll....
The dbx is a 223XL
I can almost hear it in the rack...... ".....I..... I can be a contenda'...."
And all I wanna hear is the message beep
My dreams, they got a kissing
'Cause I don't get sleep, no
There's a project...
I trust you've in hand the *ahem* 'details' of a 2241AM? If we send any gentleman into a battle, it behooves me to check it's vitals...at least, check the caps, connects, all that...(one of the caps is suspect; the 223 an intermittent switch which unknown)
Anyway....supplicantly yours,
Jerry
Interesting things and thoughts aligning re my last post.
PM if curious..."It's a concept you may be able to dance to..." ;)
I remember the Cerwin Vega speakers sold by chain stores like Crazy Eddies back in the 1970's. I believe they use ESS heil tweeters. They really were dynamic speakers with incredible bass. They came out when disco became popular after the movie Saturday Night Fever appeared in movie theaters around the United States. As I recall they sold very well.