a 3 way design speaker with the ESS Heil type sound
I have tried Klipsch RF-7 lll, ADS 780,880, 1290 ll, 1590 ll, ESS 3 ways with HEIL, and Daedalus Speakers. I still own all of these. Is there a speaker with the bass slam and dynamics of Klipsch RF-7 lll, and the midrange and tweeter sound of ESS HEIL, that is as beautiful, efficient, and easy to drive as Daedalus Speakers??
I have VPI prime. AT 760 SLC mm, and Sumiko Blackbird HOMC. Phono preamp is Ayre P-5xe. I run balanced out. I also have a Graham Slee Accession.
I use my Line Magnetic LM-515 CD player with balanced outputs. I like the sound. Great bass and extension. No fatigue with tube buffer output.
I have a Marantz SACD 30n for streaming, and SACD use. The Marantz is definitely a weak link.
I have Simaudio 740P balance into Simaudio 760A.
kinda dry sounding. Thinking this magic unicorn speaker (if existed) would solve my problem.
or do I need a good tube preamp??
AMT3s are di-pole, the air motion transformer electrostatic diaphragm sound you are appreciating, the design, and driver configuration is not easily replicated today. I completely designed my own version ground up with dual 8" Nomex woofers in place of the midrange and slow woofers from the originals. Requires all new crossovers to get the best out of the AMT and blending the woofer(s) or midrange properly. Few do the 3-way copies well imo. Keep in mind you are familiar to the older AMT sound, me too. I worked at ESS early 80s, an much better parts since.
Few others presented will equal the TYPE of di-pole AMT sound you like now. With your mention of Klispch, I suspect you’re just looking for the faster midrange and woofers speed. Lots of people try AMTs and few do it well. PAP, Gryphon, Quailo maybe.
Mundorf, Beyma, Dayton and others have all created AMTs that are unlike the AMT Great Heil. Each with their own designs and configuration, yet not the same. Looking at your 760 amp, I’d say PAP or Quailo might get you closer.
In attempt to equal your AMT3s (if that’s what you truly have), the Quailos open top section might be of interest, or the Pure Audio Project too. Check out Quailio too, check this. You’ll see people walking up behind them at shows trying to capture and listen what’s coming from the front wall. Well, it’s the back side of Di-Pole AMTs.
Some of the modern designs use the Mundorf AMTs. Best of Luck.
Hey @sputz If you have the funds and don’t care about Di-Pole AMTs, one of the best AMT implementations of the AMTs I heard at a show once, >> Gryphon <<.
The lower models like the Pantheon 3-ways are are not as efficient,
Gryphon Trident, 94db. Likely needs two monobock amps with real current imo,. Large AMT at the center, MTM style configuration like I run with mine today.
Some of these are 97db closer to what the OP was looking for. 10ohm tube amp friendly too. Very nice. Could be time to break the wallets out, wow,- or - reserve these for the bucket list.
@sputzTruly like bass. I must be a bass head ? But with details.
This also has a lot to do with your amplifier. Not just the speakers. Also fast mains paired with really good subwoofer(s) for lower-end duties can be a good mix too.
Imo, might be time to step up from the SA 760 to another amplifier with some real current and added grip, control of the drivers. As you likely well know that’s a whole separate thread on its own. I’m experimenting with that again now with my own AMTs comparing higher current tube amps, with pure Class A 50w solid state amplification. I might go back to trying other higher current Class A/AB amps again in the next year. There is something about sound pressure with the right amp(s) for powering AMT based loudspeaker systems.
Nice. Seems Piega has a sale going on too for their smaller units. And, speaking of paring smaller/faster drivers with their AMT, and running a sub separately, here it is. A link to the Piega USA site here, and a pic. Enjoying this thread and what y’all find.
They’ve got some massive ribbon speakers too, kinda reminds us of the older Infinity line of speakers. Nice to see fun options out here. :) For the OP too...
@toddalin I hope people realize that if one wants to build their own, on occasion ESS sells a pair of the Heils with all the mounting hardware and rubber gaskets for $250/pair brand new on their web site.
Right now they are priced back at $250 each, not per pair
@sputzdo you still have your 3-way AMT3s? Or, what did you have, read on if yes.
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If you still have them and update the crossovers by simply replacing the existing parts, and selecting more sensitive/rigid and responsive woofers and midrange, they can clean up nicely. A few threads over on AK on this, and AMT3s too.
Once updated, a nice SS amplifier with added current changes the sound of the Heil, woofers, and midrange with more grip and control. The worst to do is to underpower them. i.e. Running lighter duty 100w vs. 500w amplifiers with dual torroidal output transformers can really wake them up, more responsive, more dynamic. I tried several amps with all of my former AMT-Monitors and AMT-1Cs. A notable difference with higher quality amplifiers or bi-amping AMT-Monitors, AMT3s.
To @asvjerry trying again, the last shared photo link did not work. Deleted that post. Trying again, sometimes Google Photos is tricky and fails to present images on Agon. Some inspiration for your upgrade journey, its worth trying :). If you don’t see the photos, it did not work, lol. If you can see it, that’ is two separate crossovers for each speaker, one for the mid woofers and one for the AMT, separately. Won’t ever build these again, way too much work, last bucket list set.
Speakers are bi-ampable this way too. Bottom line, these two Nomex 8s work way better than one 12" with a passive radiator. The two keep up with the Heil better and less need to suppress the Heil this way for better blending, matching. Picks up some efficiency too. Tube amps, Class-A solid state lower power amps, it all seems to work. First time I heard these with my big tube amps was a nice surprise. Best of Luck on yours.
@avsjerry I’ve an older dbx 2way, a more current Behringer 2496 w/sub out, and an ESS Eclipse 2241AM which seems to be a rare bird item....
Electronics Crossovers:
Why not test and try the 2241AM. I have one of those too :), but don’t use it right now. If I had two of the same amps I’d try it again. Maybe some bits to replace inside due to age. Might be a future retirement project redo. Try that if you can, and then compare to your Behringer, w/sub out. That might sound better if you have really good subs. That sounds like a good idea too. Go for it!
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Rear-V:
Re: AMT Di-pole rear "V" design is something I tracked to with another group of engineers when ESS Labs got bought out and was shipped overseas to Europe for a number of years. See ESS 450 below. Saw this in euro and us photos too.
ESS generations of the Co:
Later they went over brought it all back on containers/boats. I’ve got photos of Transar ATDs in rows that came back to LA stored, argh.
Future:
At one point I had this dream of waiting til they are done and buying ESS, what was left of it, and bringing it right back to Sacramento CA as my last bucket list retirement project. Good to have dreams. No need, I can build my own now :) I had a local audio chain ask me to manufacture/build them and they would sell them in their hi-fi room. I guess I wanted to keep my designs private, just for me LOL.
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Another photo for inspiration. :) ESS 450 not regularly seen here in the USA.
Hey they even had your vision for 7" drivers with AMT, here it is.
Splitting hairs and depending on your definition of what a 3-way is, or 2.5 way with internal passive radiators, or the GoldenEar 3 is a 3-way and passives.
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