12au7 tube?

I know that a lot of the older 12au7’s can sound very different. Some I’ve found to be very bright, other thin sounding. Others too soft, others lacking in the highs, other with too much highs or lacking in deep bass etc.  So I’ve heard many different sounds from vintage 12au7’s but what I like about them above current production is that I feel vintage tubes are more transparent and flesh out and breathe the music through better. I will say I’ve heard some vintage tubes that have been veiled and aren’t so transparent and not as good as I expected and don’t like them but I will honestly say I haven’t ever heard a new or current production tube sound better, in terms of transparency and fleshing out the musicality better than some of the well respected and reputable vintage 12au7’s.  I think the only way we will see some current production tubes outperforming these classic vintage tubes will be if a company takes on the process of building high quality tubes as they did years ago. And as we see that happening today, those tubes from these companies usually cost $$$.  My friend paid a couple of thousand of dollars for a pair of Elrog 300b tubes. 

Tube rolling seems to be the correct way to begin fine tuning the sound. Cables and power cords should come next, I would think.

Most of my audio friends have collected way more stuff than what they need. I think this is something pandemic to this hobby and it happens over time the longer someone stays in it. My close friend has more than 15 of the best and sought after tube testers. Tons of other stuff like over 30 Guitars cause he’s a musician also. Reason why I got so many 12au7’s was in the beginning of me entering this hobby, my main pre for almost 10 yrs used only that type tube in the linestage. And back then, (over 30 yrs ago) we didn’t have so many various cables to tweak the sound as we have today. So tube rolling was a big thing then. Today there are additional options like trying different cables that do practically the same thing more or less. I use both options when I’m able. 

No, we are not, but still crazy enough.

It’s nice to know we’re not too crazy despite what our better half will tell us.  

@lowtubes

Man you’re speaking like a kindred soul here - I feel almost exactly the same way, and yeah, I also went way too far. On the plus side, my tube needs for life are easily filled. On the downside, it’s far too hard to liquidate these collections without a lot of give-aways and/or accepting pennies on the dollar. I'm just not into recouping funds 100 bucks at a time, for the effort involved here. So eventually, someone inherits the problem.

These days I spend less time tube rolling, because most vintage small tubes sound really good anyways, and your hearing just adapts to their nuances over time. If I want to change sonic flavors in a much more meaningful way, it’s easier to swap a cartridge or SUT (or components, or speakers).

Versus signal tubes, power tubes actually yield a more meaningful delta to shaping the sound IMO, but they’re mostly new (not vintage) and it’s pretty quick to hone in on which is the "right" choice for an amp. With small tubes you can easily get into a back-and-forth never ending hell trying to figure out which you actually like better.

I don’t recommend people buying a lot of tubes as I e done but I think it’s fine to pick up 2 or 3 different pairs of well respected vintage tubes and hear which they prefer. But if someone is already happy with the tubes they’re using, then I don’t see a need to try something else.  I’ve always did the tube rolling thing because I was curious about the differences. But nowadays, if I get a new component in my home and if it sounds good with the existing tubes, I usually leave it alone. About a yr ago, I purchased a very large single ended tube amplifier that uses GE 805 tube driven my a 300b and some small GE 5751 tubes with a Amperex 12ax7.  All the tubes in the amplifier are vintage and to me, the amp sounded fine. So I left all the existing tubes in the amp and went on to purchasing many of the exact tubes as backups. I don’t like having such a big collection of tubes and that is gonna be my children’s problem when I die. I feel having tubes in stock is similar to having cables in stock. All these things are tweaks to perfect the ultimate sound. I have a decent collection of cables as well, Interconnects, power cables and speaker cables. I own about 5 tube testers and have about 15 tube amplifiers.  Not suggesting anyone go to this level as I know I’ve went too far.  

@lowtubes there comes a time where tube life may actually exceed one’s own. Maybe a gruesome thought to some, but may as well face reality, lol. With the number of tubes I’ve collected over the years, I’ve decided to try listening to them rather than just collecting ‘em.  Kinda like money…can’t take it with ya.😵‍💫

@audiojan 

You have a nice system. I use telefunkens and hope they will last a really long time.

When I read your first comment it seems like you're being kind of cheap. Why are you limiting your purse string in this area.??

I don't like trying out different types of tubes I just settled for something that I knew would be exceptional purchased from Jesse. 

@audition__audio   @lowtubes. Thank you both.  It was my understanding too that all three were an arm of Amperex/Philips. The reason I asked who made what for who is I remember reading (can’t remember where) that Mazda did not manufacturer tubes…they were a rebrander only.  In any case they all do sound different.  I have all three varients of 12au7’s and have enjoyed them all over the years depending on the component they’re placed in, system matching, my mood, etc.

All,

Trust is a rare commodity in this hobby.  Being new to tube gear, I really appreciate all of the experiences, insight and recommendations.

Also, FYI - I contacted the folks at premiumvaccumtubes.com.  Their business model is 'don't call us and we won't call you'.  That's correct.  They will only communicate via email or chatbox. 

Hard to say if they are ethical, but I know I will shop elsewhere - the other vendors are happy to discuss their products, and that rapport creates trust (and, thus sales).

Yeah, it can just be different, not better or worse. That's what Brent from Audio Tubes told me when I asked him about possible comparison in my amp between RCA black plates and Mullards, don't remember the exact model. And I decided not to get the Mullards since I liked the sound I had and didn't want it to be any warmer than it was. But someone else might've wanted exactly that, it would've been excellent sound too.

But for 12AX7 in the preamp my Mullards go nowhere.

Hello Marco1, I haven’t listened to my 12au7’s in a long time and I really didn’t get very interested in where they were made and for what purpose. But off the top of my head, some things I do remember, for instance the very popular and extremely good Amperex 7316 (12au7) was a later production tube made for computer purposes. I believe Mazda was made in France.  Somewhere around 30 yrs ago, I Own a Conrad Johnson preamp for 10yrs that used (2) 12au7’s in its linestage and that was when I rolled and collected many brands and pairs of the 12au7’s. I still have some components in my collection that use the 12au7 but since moved onto other preamps that use other type tubes. All of the well respected vintage brands are worth giving a listen like Mullard, Telefunken, Valvo, Mazda, RCA black plates, Philips, Amperex, and so on.  I have a big inventory of other vintage tubes as well EL34’s, 6SN7’s, 12AX7’s, 5751’s as well many other tubes. In my home, I have many tube amplifiers in my listening area. I prefer tube components and in the past did a lot of tube rolling to get the best sound. Nowadays,  I still use all vintage tubes because I personally feel they sound better. Im not a fan of many current production tubes.  The only areas where I am not using vintage production is the power tubes on 3 power amplifiers because the 3 amplifiers take so many EL34’s and I don’t want to burn up my good Mullards or Amperex, Teslas etc. My VTL mono amps use 16- EL34’s, Conrad Johnson Premier 1b, 12- EL34’s, Conrad Johnson Premier Four 8- EL34’s. I use my premium EL34’s in my smaller tube amps that only require 4 power tubes.  The most important point I would like to stress, no one tube can be recommended to someone to be the perfect tube for someone unless it is heard in one’s system. I’ve forgotten so much about all the tubes I have in storage. But one thing I remember, you need to put the tube in the circuit and give it a listen to hear if its what you’re looking for.  I recently picked up a Conrad Johnson Premier 3 and once again, pulled out my stash of tubes and started popping them in and out till I got the sound I was looking for in the linestage along with the phonostage. 

I think, RCA black plates from 50s give excellent balance, at least in my amp. 

marco,

The 3 types you mention above are all Philips Europe companies. Made in Holland, Belgium and France respectively. Each has a unique acid etched code which begins the second set of each code. For Philips/Amperex is was a delta or triangle on its side, Mazda a L and LA Radiotechnique a plus sign directly over a slash or minus sign. All have many internal similarities and all have the 4 seams coming out from the nipple on the tube tops. There is much online about these codes and is the only true way to identify a Philips Europe tube and I have never known these codes to be faked. Many of the Holland made tubes will be branded Philips as well as Amperex.

You Can't beat Andy @ Vintage tube services.

There are so many variations in NOS Mullard tubes (different factories, different styles, a whole range of dates of production), that it's impossible to generalize about them.  I wasn't impressed with the pair that I got, but that doesn't mean that some other pair might sound fabulous.

That's one positive vote for the Apos Ray.  I'm feeling tempted.

I've had really good luck with the new-production Apos Ray 12AU7s. They come with a warranty and sound very good compared to the leading NOS 12AU7s I have in my stash...

The OS (used) Mullards I got from Andy Vintage Tube Services are fantastic, and not woolly. If you buy slightly used from Andy you can get great vintage tubes for much less than your budget. Recently I bought a quad of Rays tubes, the EL 34. They are the best new tubes I’ve heard in a long time. Their 12 AU7 might be worth trying too

50”s VALVO.

@lowtubes with your expertise in 12au7 tubes, I wonder if you could help clarify something touched on here and something I’m still a little unsure of.  Regarding vintage Amperex, Mazda and Radiotechnique, generally who made what for who? I guess I could ask some of online sellers of vintage tubes but since you’re here and they’re not a clarification could also be helpful to some of the other participants of this thread.

Hello AudioJan, came across your topic from the list that is sent to me weekly by audiogon. Saw an interest in your question about 12au7.  I’ve rolled that tube for years and have a huge inventory of the finest and best 12au7’s ever made. I didn’t read all the responses to your question but I saw many responses in which I feel were correct. I’ve found for myself that many 12au7’s can sound more transparent and revealing than other brands. Some are more musical and some more detailed. I’ve also discovered that the “holy grail” of a tube may not necessarily be the tube that sounds best in your setup even though it might be the clearest and most revealing.  When I’m looking to tweak and make adjustments to perfect my sound, I’ll try the many various 12au7’s I have in stock, (somewhere around 60-70 different brands NOS).  I happen to be bias in that I prefer older 12au7’s tubes from the 1950-1980’s. I may go through 1-10 different brands till I find the tube that sounds right even though I’m dealing with some of the very best ever made. Point is, you definitely want to begin evaluating with a great tube to hear if it’s gonna sound good but to find the perfect one for your system, you’ll need to try as many as you can. Unfortunately there’s no easy way around this. Me and my buddies have been rolling tubes for years and no-one can really tell you what will be the right tube for you in a particular component because that component is part of a complete system that all the other parts of that system  will all be contributing it’s own sound. There are forums online that specifically talk about tubes and tube types. One that I’ve used many years ago is “Tubes Asylum”.  You can put the type tube you want information on and can read many online responses to that type tube. 

@twoleftears 

I forgot all about them.  They came on like gang busters advertising everywhere and then just stopped. I’ll be listening to hear what answers you get.

Oh and thanks for jogging my memory.😊

I settled on Radiotechnique in my Backert preamp. I thought they were made by Mazda but perhaps I'm wrong.  They just edge out the Cifte's that I also have and which I'm pretty sure were made by Mazda.

Amperex is great too: a tad warmer, whereas Radiotechnique gives you a little more "air".

I didn't get on well with Brimars because of reliability problems but perhaps that was just bad luck.

I tried a pair of Psvane ART series a while ago and thought them the best of new production that I tried (Mullard and Gold Lion), but prefer NOS.  No problems with the Psvane but two tubes in a preamp for not too long is hardly a representative sample.

Question: has anyone tried the Apos Ray 12AU7, which seems to be the new kid on the block making a few waves.

@curiousjim ,

Gotcha, I was under the impression that you didn’t get the tubes from them.

@hasmarto 

I have six PSVANE/Art 12au7 tubes and five of them are bad. Both Viva the vender and PSVANE blew me off. 
 

I will NEVER give either one of them my business.

@curiousjim , 

Have you ever bought problematic tubes from Viva and not been taken care of by them?

I’m asking because they always take care of their customers, at least in my experience.

It's quite concerning hearing about the quality issues at Psvane. Grant Fidelity (premiumvaccumtubes.com) dropped them due to quality concerns/issues and are selling Linlai only.

This makes it really difficult to find good 845 tubes for a future tube upgrade... As far as I know, of new tubes, there's only Psvane, Linlai and KR making them (and KR doesn't follow the standard, so they're out).

I like reliability in tubes. I’ve never been let down by Gold Lions, and their performance is very good. And you can get them for a song on USAudioMart. 

I use NOS 12SN7 with adapters in place of 12AU7's in my Backert Labs preamp. They are superior to the 12SN7"s.

@curiousjim ...A couple of weeks later I read an article saying that PSVANE had put out a batch of 12au7 Art series tubes that were bad. Again I sent emails mentioning the article to PSV and Viva and still they won’t budge! So that’s why I will never buy PSVANE tubes again and I will never buy from Viva again.

Transparently - something very similar happened for me. Had everything to do with the tubes being lightly packed, loose boxes, no foam or peanuts inside. Same seller, and they were Gold Lyon, not PSVANE. Got a refund, thankfully. Crackling and snapping and popping in the first 1hr, and tried again like you - several times. Had been down this same path with other tubes, but something in common I found.

There is a whole other thread about this, and I’m challenging the distributors and reailers who unbox from Asia, and then test, and not put foam or peanuts and all that back in - leaving the tubes LOOSE inside, rattling and bouncing during shipping. Even the leaders at PSVANE are aware of poor re-packing/shipping issues. And they seemed to have fessed up a bout some batches that went bad  a while back, told me "poor QA". This next - Not sure what your case is - but I’’ll mention this if you need it. This can helps if you suspect poor repacking to you. 

You have another option. I just got a pair replaced, direct from the factory. They are going to ask you to share intel and photos and will want you to physically break the tubes to replace them - send them photos back of it all - in order to get replacements. Contact PSVANE direct. Try it, they were good responding to me. Took 17 days to get replacements. I’m using my 6SN7 replacements now, no issues, were packed really well too - fingers crossed for you., https://psvane.co/pages/contact-1

Oh and I misspoke on my original post.

It was the Tungsols that came in second place, not the Gold Lions.

@decooney 

I bought a preamp that came with a bunch of extra tubes.  One of the selling points was six brand new PSVANE 12au7 tubes that were still in perfect boxes with Viva stickers on them.  I put in the first two and within 72 hours one of the tubes started making crackling static noises. I put in another set and the same thing happened after about a week.  I put the set in and in about 12 hours it started again. Over the coming weeks I played with different combinations using a Telefunken that I knew was good and when all was said and done, I had only one PSVANE tubes that worked! That’s when A, I  started buying matched set of New Mullard, Gold Lion, Tungsol and NOS RCA and Amperex tubes. All worked great and I waited two weeks with each before trying the next set.  I settled on the RCA Cleartops and they’ve been in a few months now. And B, I sent emails to PSV and Viva. Viva said because I didn’t buy them I was out of luck.  And PSV kinda blew me off as well.  A couple of weeks later I read an article saying that PSVANE had put out a batch of 12au7 Art series tubes that were bad. Again I sent emails mentioning the article to PSV and Viva and still they won’t budge!  So that’s why I will never buy PSVANE tubes again and I will never buy from Viva again.

@audiojan Nice selection of tubes. Enjoy!

@signaforce + 1 on the 60s Brimar, cv4003. Use them in my DAC & much preferred over many of the other usual suspects. I believe the 50s Brimars are even better but good luck finding a pair south of $500.

Brent Jessee has the Phillips factory codes and how to read them on his site here:

Mullard, Philips, and Valvo Tube Codes

Phillips owned many of the popular NOS tube manufacturers. Brent says one thing I disagree with, though. That is that you only need to look at the etched codes when the labeling is not readable. Phillips labeled tubes made in one factory with the brand of another factory all the time. You have to look at the etched codes to know where a tube came from and when it was made. They can be hard or impossible to read, though.

I am pretty certain that the French tubes, La Radiotechnique (RT) were actually made by this factory which was owned by Philips Europe. Has a unique acid etched code. 

@curiousjim My preamp uses 12au7’s and I’ve tried PSVANE and will never buy them again and would suggest than nobody should buy from them!

Share more. While I have more vintage pairs of 12au7s than I care to recall - including RCAs, GE, Tungsram, the best of Blackburn Mullards, and more ---- and just sent back failed Gold Lyons, I’m currently running PSVANE 12au7, 12at7, factory direct for a year and no problems so far. My local dealer runs all OEM PSVANE made and rebranded for AudioNote, no major reports of failures.

Always curious where folks source their tubes from and how they get packed and shipped. The poorly packed and shipped tubes sure do seem to suffer past few years, fwiw. Always taking photos when I unbox to show packing, boxing, effort.

Call Andy at Vintage Tube Services. Doesn’t matter what tube you decide on if you can’t trust that it is working as it’s supposed to. If you buy from Andy, it will be as it should. 

My preamp uses 12au7’s and I’ve tried PSVANE and will never buy them again and would suggest than nobody should buy from them!  I tried several others and settled on NOS RCA cleartops.  They give me great highs, wonderful midrange without being too forward and really clean bass. In second place was the were the Gold Lions.

All the best.

For preamp, I’ve had had good luck with NOS Mazda gray plates.

For power amp the Brimar flying leads in conjunction with Ampererex 7316 for the 12ax7

Brent Jessee sent me those.  

You want to go with what the cognoscenti declare to be the best of the best?

Telefunken G73-R. Love to try out a pair of those. 

+1 @audition__audio  about the clear tops. Annoyingly bright.

@audiojan could be, but  probably more likely Amperex. They probably do sound similar though.

@marco1 The Radiotechnique's are likely made by Mazda...

Try Mazda too.  Fit very nicely between the Tele’s and Mullards, just like you’re looking for.  

@audiojan Thanks everyone. I have a bunch of tubes incoming. Radiotechnique, Genalex Gold Lion, Brimar, Amperex.

That's the way to do it.  Do some nice pair comparisons, select a few vintage you like, and a few new/re-issue tubes to play when you like. Then store off the keepers and sell off the stuff that's just okay or does not gel well with your system so much. 

i don't know how good they are, but, a local dealer helped to sell off a very valuable collection of tubes.  Included in the collection were something like eight original Genelex  B749 tubes (12AU7 variant).  These sold for north of $1,000 each.  

Thanks everyone. I have a bunch of tubes incoming. Radiotechnique, Genalex Gold Lion, Brimar, Amperex.

And all things being equal, pick up a current production Gold Lion 12AU7, an excellent reference tube to judge all others, NOS and current production, based on my experience with the 12AX7.