Hello AudioJan, came across your topic from the list that is sent to me weekly by audiogon. Saw an interest in your question about 12au7. I’ve rolled that tube for years and have a huge inventory of the finest and best 12au7’s ever made. I didn’t read all the responses to your question but I saw many responses in which I feel were correct. I’ve found for myself that many 12au7’s can sound more transparent and revealing than other brands. Some are more musical and some more detailed. I’ve also discovered that the “holy grail” of a tube may not necessarily be the tube that sounds best in your setup even though it might be the clearest and most revealing. When I’m looking to tweak and make adjustments to perfect my sound, I’ll try the many various 12au7’s I have in stock, (somewhere around 60-70 different brands NOS). I happen to be bias in that I prefer older 12au7’s tubes from the 1950-1980’s. I may go through 1-10 different brands till I find the tube that sounds right even though I’m dealing with some of the very best ever made. Point is, you definitely want to begin evaluating with a great tube to hear if it’s gonna sound good but to find the perfect one for your system, you’ll need to try as many as you can. Unfortunately there’s no easy way around this. Me and my buddies have been rolling tubes for years and no-one can really tell you what will be the right tube for you in a particular component because that component is part of a complete system that all the other parts of that system will all be contributing it’s own sound. There are forums online that specifically talk about tubes and tube types. One that I’ve used many years ago is “Tubes Asylum”. You can put the type tube you want information on and can read many online responses to that type tube.
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Hello Marco1, I haven’t listened to my 12au7’s in a long time and I really didn’t get very interested in where they were made and for what purpose. But off the top of my head, some things I do remember, for instance the very popular and extremely good Amperex 7316 (12au7) was a later production tube made for computer purposes. I believe Mazda was made in France. Somewhere around 30 yrs ago, I Own a Conrad Johnson preamp for 10yrs that used (2) 12au7’s in its linestage and that was when I rolled and collected many brands and pairs of the 12au7’s. I still have some components in my collection that use the 12au7 but since moved onto other preamps that use other type tubes. All of the well respected vintage brands are worth giving a listen like Mullard, Telefunken, Valvo, Mazda, RCA black plates, Philips, Amperex, and so on. I have a big inventory of other vintage tubes as well EL34’s, 6SN7’s, 12AX7’s, 5751’s as well many other tubes. In my home, I have many tube amplifiers in my listening area. I prefer tube components and in the past did a lot of tube rolling to get the best sound. Nowadays, I still use all vintage tubes because I personally feel they sound better. Im not a fan of many current production tubes. The only areas where I am not using vintage production is the power tubes on 3 power amplifiers because the 3 amplifiers take so many EL34’s and I don’t want to burn up my good Mullards or Amperex, Teslas etc. My VTL mono amps use 16- EL34’s, Conrad Johnson Premier 1b, 12- EL34’s, Conrad Johnson Premier Four 8- EL34’s. I use my premium EL34’s in my smaller tube amps that only require 4 power tubes. The most important point I would like to stress, no one tube can be recommended to someone to be the perfect tube for someone unless it is heard in one’s system. I’ve forgotten so much about all the tubes I have in storage. But one thing I remember, you need to put the tube in the circuit and give it a listen to hear if its what you’re looking for. I recently picked up a Conrad Johnson Premier 3 and once again, pulled out my stash of tubes and started popping them in and out till I got the sound I was looking for in the linestage along with the phonostage.
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I don’t recommend people buying a lot of tubes as I e done but I think it’s fine to pick up 2 or 3 different pairs of well respected vintage tubes and hear which they prefer. But if someone is already happy with the tubes they’re using, then I don’t see a need to try something else. I’ve always did the tube rolling thing because I was curious about the differences. But nowadays, if I get a new component in my home and if it sounds good with the existing tubes, I usually leave it alone. About a yr ago, I purchased a very large single ended tube amplifier that uses GE 805 tube driven my a 300b and some small GE 5751 tubes with a Amperex 12ax7. All the tubes in the amplifier are vintage and to me, the amp sounded fine. So I left all the existing tubes in the amp and went on to purchasing many of the exact tubes as backups. I don’t like having such a big collection of tubes and that is gonna be my children’s problem when I die. I feel having tubes in stock is similar to having cables in stock. All these things are tweaks to perfect the ultimate sound. I have a decent collection of cables as well, Interconnects, power cables and speaker cables. I own about 5 tube testers and have about 15 tube amplifiers. Not suggesting anyone go to this level as I know I’ve went too far.
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Most of my audio friends have collected way more stuff than what they need. I think this is something pandemic to this hobby and it happens over time the longer someone stays in it. My close friend has more than 15 of the best and sought after tube testers. Tons of other stuff like over 30 Guitars cause he’s a musician also. Reason why I got so many 12au7’s was in the beginning of me entering this hobby, my main pre for almost 10 yrs used only that type tube in the linestage. And back then, (over 30 yrs ago) we didn’t have so many various cables to tweak the sound as we have today. So tube rolling was a big thing then. Today there are additional options like trying different cables that do practically the same thing more or less. I use both options when I’m able.
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I know that a lot of the older 12au7’s can sound very different. Some I’ve found to be very bright, other thin sounding. Others too soft, others lacking in the highs, other with too much highs or lacking in deep bass etc. So I’ve heard many different sounds from vintage 12au7’s but what I like about them above current production is that I feel vintage tubes are more transparent and flesh out and breathe the music through better. I will say I’ve heard some vintage tubes that have been veiled and aren’t so transparent and not as good as I expected and don’t like them but I will honestly say I haven’t ever heard a new or current production tube sound better, in terms of transparency and fleshing out the musicality better than some of the well respected and reputable vintage 12au7’s. I think the only way we will see some current production tubes outperforming these classic vintage tubes will be if a company takes on the process of building high quality tubes as they did years ago. And as we see that happening today, those tubes from these companies usually cost $$$. My friend paid a couple of thousand of dollars for a pair of Elrog 300b tubes.
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I like Telefunken very much. Always found them to be very open and musical. They last for yrs. In fact all of my tubes, doesn’t matter what brand last and have never worn out. The only tube I remember having problems was the Sylvania triple mica black plate 5751. It’s maybe considered one of the top 5751’s but for me always had a high failure rate. Even all my power tubes have lasted these 30yrs because I have several amps and I use all my amps so my tubes have never failed except for going faulty. I like the 6SN7 tube and I have a lot of the true Sylvania Chrome Domes made in 1952-53 which is a really nice tube. Also have the 1940’s Holy Grail 6SN7 Tung Sol round plate smoke glass. For me, I liked many many of the different vintage 12au7’s including the Mullards but my favorites were the Amperex. I felt Amperex had everything all in one tube. There are many different versions of Amperex 12au7’s, I liked Old World Logo and the 7316.
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I never thought the Sylvania GTB was anything special. Very warm midrange and extended top. I liked the Raytheon 6SN7 WGT brown base which is a really nice sounding tube. For 12au7’s, I liked Raytheon’s, RCA black plates, Valvos, Brimars, didn’t like many Siemens because in my circuits they sounding bright.
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Mulveling, good points on the 6SN7’s.
Audiojan, reason why I think it’s important for one to hear the tube in ones own system is because what sounds good in someone else system may not sound best in yours and you might have a different preference. Example, many people like the 1940’s Metal base Sylvania 6SN7GT or 6SN7W. I really don’t, I prefer the Sylvania 1945 6SN7W short bottle because I find it sweeter and nicer than the more expensive and sought after metal base (taller bottle) which I find a little too analytical for my taste. The 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle and the 1951-53 Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Domes are probably my favorites from those type tubes. Mulveling, you mentioned Shuguang and JJ Czech in your post. Because I use so many EL34’s, I’m using 8 Shuguang in my CJ Premier Four and in my CJ Premier 1b, using 12 JJ from Slovakia Czech. My VTL all have 16 Russian EL34’s.
Inna, I never thought the Svetlana/SED EL34 "Winged" were anything special. And even though people claim they are a close copy of Mullards, they’re not. Not even close. I’ve found a few EL34’s that nicely outperform the Svetlana tube. One of my personal favorite EL34’s are the 1970 Tesla brown base. Very revealing and beautiful sounding tube. I like it in some ways better than my Mullards. The Svetlana winged C doesn’t compete with these caliber of EL34’s even though people have falsely claimed so. I mention in a previous post, I would only use inferior tubes in my equipment because it might be too expensive to use premium tubes. On my amps that ONLY require 4 EL34’s, I have on most of the 1970 Teslas, 1960 Mullards or 1960 Amperex XF2.
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Mullard EL34’s are great and there is opinions about the differences in sound between the single and dual getters. I think I have both but never compared to hear which is better. I did evaluate between single getter 1960’s Mullard and 1970’s brown base Tesla dual getters. The amp I used to compare these tubes was a Conrad Johnson MV55, with 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle driver tubes and 1950’s Mullard MCI long plate 12ax7’s driver tubes. The Mullard is just a great all around tube. Very well balanced with Great detail, smoothness and musicality. I found the Tesla, in my amplifier tested, to be more euphoric and engaging. The Tesla had something special that fleshed out the information above the Mullards. Strange thing, even though I feel I was getting a more fleshed out midrange and more immediacy from the Tesla’s, they also had this sense of warmth to them. When I heard the Mullards, no warmth, just musical and straight up good tube. When I play the Teslas, warmth and euphoria and midrange clarity returns.
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Mullard MCI 12ax7 input tubes.
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No I do not ever try to match brands of tubes together nor have I ever thought about that neither do I see any benefit to it. Almost all of my equipment is operating with all different brands of tubes. Even though I had Mullard MCI 12ax7’s as input tubes, my favorite 12ax7 is the Amperex long plate double DD getter. But at the time of evaluating the EL34’s, I had the Mullards in the input. The Mullard MCI btw are some of the best 12ax7’s ever made. In the beginning, Depending on the type of tube equipment I’d own in the past, I usually was very curious at how much improvement in sound I could get by picking up premium tubes that were favorites by many audiophiles that were in the hobby before me. Slowly I began purchasing tubes and listening to them in my amplifiers to hear what they sounded like and to satisfy my curiosity. Nowadays when I’m in need of a specific or special sound I’m hoping to achieve, I have some of my favorite tubes to put in place and see if it helps. Ive been in this hobby for 30 plus years and I already know by listening to a system if it’s good or if it’s lacking. I only swap tubes today if I hear a problem. If it sounds good, I change nothing. My ears tell me when something is transparent, revealing, airy, engaging, natural, and all the beautiful things we want to hear from our systems. If I purchase a new piece of equipment that has Chinese tubes, I very much might keep those tubes in as long as it sounds transparent and good. When I purchased my Conrad Johnson Premier Four, it arrived with 8 Shuguang Chinese EL34’s. First thing I wanted to do was get them out and put something better. But after playing the amp for the first week, I found no issue with the Chinese tubes. To my ears, they sounded great and were doing the trick. So instead of putting in 8 Teslas, I searched for more Shuguang tubes and purchased 16 as backups because in the end, it just sounded fine. I did change out the input and driver tubes on the amp to something better from my vintage stash. I feel setting up a system is a mix of a lot of different stuff. I don’t recommend using the same brand of tubes the same way I wouldn’t recommend using the same brand of cables throughout a system. Building a really nice sounding system is something that is done one step at a time and to get it to be really, really good, it usually takes time tweaking and making little but worthwhile adjustments. It can take yrs till it all finally comes together and the funny thing about this hobby is that when that happens, usually audiophiles still aren’t happy. I do t think many audiophiles will ever be content or happy with their systems.
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I mix match cables and try to use quality cabling. I pretty much don’t use basic cables. I had them in the past, Wireworld, Audio Quest, Cardas, MIT, Tara Labs and so on. I’ve been using newer cables from new companies that sound better to me than cables of the past. I have a limit to what I want to spend on a cable and keep it at that. Today some really nice sounding IC cables can be purchased from $100-$500 pair. Speaker cables as well. Yrs ago not so, for that price only decent sounding but today things have changed and some really good open sounding cables can be purchased at a reason price because we have so much new on the market. I like using silver a lot on my IC’s. I find silver more open, smoother and natural over copper. Thank God I’ve found contentment when I get a setup sounding good. I usually leave it alone and enjoy the music and that’s really what this hobby should be about. But I went through a lot of listening to components, tubes, cables to satisfy my curiosity.
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Mattw73, great information. I liked your knowledge and experience on various tubes. Sounds like you’ve done a lot of listening to different types as I have. Well I know these things sound crazy but that’s why this is a hobby. I can’t remember all the ridiculous hours I spent during the day and late at night comparing the difference between one brand of tube against another. Well most of that is behind me. Today I find myself doing comparisons with cables. Give or take, the 1940’s to 1960’s was the era of vacuum tubes. Probably continued up into the 80’s. No where in time did we have so many great vacuum tube companies making quality tubes as we did in the era. Today, we are in a different era, The era of hifi cables. Many different cables have many different characteristics. With getting the correct tubes in the circuit and right cabling on the components, we have great opportunities to get fantastic sounding systems. I believe getting the correct tubes in a circuit is extremely important but so is the cabling between the components. Of course there is no end to tweaking as I’ve even gone as far as to change Capacitors in my components which is another world of tweaks of its own.
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One point also, we are also in the era of hifi Capacitors as there are so many variety and wonderful and beautiful sounding capacitors being made today from various good companies.
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