These were prices from audiotubes.com, a very reliable source of tubes. In fact, RCAs are $100 for a matched pair.
12au7 tube?
Looking for a good 12au7 (JJ ecc802s currently). I know the Telefunken ECC802s is the holy grail, but it comes at a price that is just too steep for me to justify. Many will recommend Mullard, but I always find them a bit too "wooly", lacking in definition. They're going in a Mastersound 845 Compact.
What tubes would you recommend that fits between the clarity of the Telefunken (without the price...) and the Mullard? I don't mind spending a bit of money on a pair (let's say max $500 for the pair, prefer to be lower if at all possible).
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Well these are called life tests and should be done on all tubes sold. Most likely they are not by many sellers, especially on ebay. Having said this, a very well respected tube seller advertises "new old stock in white boxes", which translated means white boxed tubes testing as typical new old stock. Not the same thing. The same seller claims that Sylvania Bad Boy 6SN7GT varied in construction and included 2 and 3 hole plates as just on example. Best way to tell if a tube is NOS is by a close inspection of the pins. Deep grooves or burn marks are signs of use as is baked on lettering which cant be removed easily with a thumbnail or a wipe. Original boxes arent a definitive sign of NOS condition but they are a good start. Some tubes, like JAN tubes, were bulk packed without original boxes, but this is fairly uncommon in my experience. I have had used tubes which tested higher than actual NOS. Not unusual for true NOS test levels on the same tube type, from the same manufacturer from the same production run to vary up to 20%. So typical NOS levels listed on some testers are averages which arent particularly precise. |
They may not be actually counterfeit but also probably not NOS by any stretch of the imagination. I have quite a few in my collection and used to own a well calibrated Hickok Military Cardmatic tester that could actually stress the tubes slightly to look for possible longevity. So many tested high initially but showed they would only be in service for a much shorter time than one wants to believe. |
They hide this in the FAQ on their site:
You have to go to Support, then hit FAQ. Also this bit of dubious ’technology’:
How it can do that when it’s coating the glass is beyond me. Gotta admit, they have a good marketing department. They also explain why their tubes are better than all NOS tubes which to me is a blanket statement of nonsense. |
@decooney Yep. There is nothing new under the sun here, and I have to roll my eyes when somebody uses marketing / branding to act like a new tube manufacturer. At least be more up-front: "here is who makes our tubes, and here is what we do to (maybe) make them better than the standard production" |
Are you aware of who the OEM is for Ray tubes btw? Not to blow their cover but it’s fairly easy to search and find on the internet. Think large manufacturer who batches their top % of tested tubes and puts a different label on it.. Perhaps the helpful part is they are supposed to be top matched triodes tested [and as good as a guarantee that Ray gives them] whatever that is at the time the warranty is needed fwiw. |
@thecarpathian a d just as I thought I had the perfect tube you come up with the RCA’s… :-) |
I really appreciate these threads for information. inna commented about some 50s RCA black tops, back in February. I'd recently been trying out 12 AU7s in both an Aric Unlimited II, and a Conrad Johnson PV-11. Battle of the preamps and their line stage tubes. I've got a modest collection, but the black tops arrived last week. I've liked the RCA clear tops, and some Cryotones among the existing crowd, but wow. The RCA black tops provided more of everything. I've stopped rolling for the moment, just surprised. I had a buddy over a few nights ago, and he was looking around for the large speakers in the basement. They were just the little Dynaudios, pretending to be big. I give some credit to these tubes for that moment. |
Audiojan There are tons of variables for 12 AU7s and 6SN7s, as you've already seen. Whenever I need honest advice and a HUGE selection of tubes, I reach out to Brent Jessee. His tubes are not the cheapest, but he carries a large stock, and stands behind his tubes. Send him a note with your equipment, and ask him for his recommendations; he's been spot on and I've been buying from him for 7 or 8 years |
Mattw73, great information. I liked your knowledge and experience on various tubes. Sounds like you’ve done a lot of listening to different types as I have. Well I know these things sound crazy but that’s why this is a hobby. I can’t remember all the ridiculous hours I spent during the day and late at night comparing the difference between one brand of tube against another. Well most of that is behind me. Today I find myself doing comparisons with cables. Give or take, the 1940’s to 1960’s was the era of vacuum tubes. Probably continued up into the 80’s. No where in time did we have so many great vacuum tube companies making quality tubes as we did in the era. Today, we are in a different era, The era of hifi cables. Many different cables have many different characteristics. With getting the correct tubes in the circuit and right cabling on the components, we have great opportunities to get fantastic sounding systems. I believe getting the correct tubes in a circuit is extremely important but so is the cabling between the components. Of course there is no end to tweaking as I’ve even gone as far as to change Capacitors in my components which is another world of tweaks of its own. |
@tksteingraber , Yes, indeed! The pair I have look like new. All silkscreen perfect, and I think I paid $35 for them about 4 or 5 years ago. Haven't seen another pair since. Just a smooth, easy sounding tube. Oh, and apparently the ’V’ over ’M’ stands for Voice of Music. I think if they got the press Telefunken, Mullard and Amperex get, the price would go up 10 fold. |
+thecarpathian Agree the Westinghouse Carbon Plates from the ‘60’s are fantastic but they need to meet the description details provided above. I have 2 pairs for my Raven Blackhawk and they sound the best of many that I have rolled. When they can be found they are usually inexpensive as a bonus. Tube Maze has a good review and sells them at times. |
I have a couple 12au7 type preamps. For nice clarity & sound or a step above the usual suspects of 12au7’s I think the Siemans with silver plates are a great tube. I also always seem to like anything Holland Amperex. I find that the much cheaper early GE tubes to be close in sound to the balanced characteristics of Amperex tubes. Valvo’s are always a winner as well. If your transformer can handle it I really prefer the E80cc tube. They have a 10,000 hour life span so you definitely get your money’s worth. Great clarity & dynamics. The Tungsram are a fine tube. I recently bought some PCB’s from Mellow Tone Kits & just copied their e80cc schematic & it was a good preamp with lots of drive & low output impedance I paired with a Hypex Nilai. I’ve also tried the e80cc with adapters in my 12sn7 & 6sn7 preamp circuits. I preferred them with 12v on the heater but will work with 6. The American 5814 tubes are good 12au7 types as well for the money I feel. 12bh7’s even better if the transformer will allow. For 6sn7’s the early 50’s Sylvania chrome dome gta’s are a safe bet. Some pretty good 6sn7’s that don’t have a crazy price tag are the early 50’s GE GTA’s. Side getter, copper grid posts, parallel gray plates, short bottle. I just picked up another nice pair recently for about $50. GE’s don’t get much love as any tube type..but they have some gems that can be found cheap due to this No Love. They are great as cathode followers. A lot of the VT-231 type tubes are just stupid expensive in my opinion. I don’t notice a big enough difference in good 6sn7 tubes to justify the cost. I am a fan of the 5692 tubes when plate voltages are under 200volts. These are expensive but in the right circuit are very quiet, transparent, dynamic, enlarged soundstage, just smooth & sweet. 10,000 hour life to maybe justify some costs. In the wrong circuit (high voltage) they can sound grainy & lifeless..& burn out quick. I also like most early RCA 6sn7 types in general. Smoked glass being less transparent but fun for certain genres. 6cg7 types with 8 to 9 pin adapter go nicely in any 6sn7 spot. These are identical to 6sn7’s in 9 pin form. I prefer 12volt 12sn7’s..though they are supposedly identical to their 6 volt brother/sister. I’m currently using a pair of Sylvania JAN CHS 6sn7wgt in my Icon Audio LA4 preamp & liking it. I’ve used other wgt’s in the past & didn’t totally love them. This pair that I really like actually took me awhile to put together a matching pair..buying one & finding a match many months later. Compared to my other wgt’s these have the bottom round plate slightly above the base, a half chrome top but can see the 4 hanging filaments. Mid 50’s, 3 hole, shorter bottle but without super short plates..white lettering. Buying singles can lessen the cost but can sometimes take awhile finding a good balanced match. But I think it really comes down to the circuit if the tubes sound well. And almost all tubes should sound good to decent in the circuit. Usually if NOS tubes don’t sound good it’s probably because something is wrong with one of the tubes. If the tubes are good the music should sound good..some tubes just sound slightly better than others. Everything in this post is just my opinion of course. With quality tubes being so scarce & ultra expensive I should really start trying more aftermarket/new tubes to see what works well. I have no experience with newer tubes. |
If you can find a pair of these, grab them. Westinghouse carbon plate 12au7, but a very specific limited production type.
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I mix match cables and try to use quality cabling. I pretty much don’t use basic cables. I had them in the past, Wireworld, Audio Quest, Cardas, MIT, Tara Labs and so on. I’ve been using newer cables from new companies that sound better to me than cables of the past. I have a limit to what I want to spend on a cable and keep it at that. Today some really nice sounding IC cables can be purchased from $100-$500 pair. Speaker cables as well. Yrs ago not so, for that price only decent sounding but today things have changed and some really good open sounding cables can be purchased at a reason price because we have so much new on the market. I like using silver a lot on my IC’s. I find silver more open, smoother and natural over copper. Thank God I’ve found contentment when I get a setup sounding good. I usually leave it alone and enjoy the music and that’s really what this hobby should be about. But I went through a lot of listening to components, tubes, cables to satisfy my curiosity. |
No I do not ever try to match brands of tubes together nor have I ever thought about that neither do I see any benefit to it. Almost all of my equipment is operating with all different brands of tubes. Even though I had Mullard MCI 12ax7’s as input tubes, my favorite 12ax7 is the Amperex long plate double DD getter. But at the time of evaluating the EL34’s, I had the Mullards in the input. The Mullard MCI btw are some of the best 12ax7’s ever made. In the beginning, Depending on the type of tube equipment I’d own in the past, I usually was very curious at how much improvement in sound I could get by picking up premium tubes that were favorites by many audiophiles that were in the hobby before me. Slowly I began purchasing tubes and listening to them in my amplifiers to hear what they sounded like and to satisfy my curiosity. Nowadays when I’m in need of a specific or special sound I’m hoping to achieve, I have some of my favorite tubes to put in place and see if it helps. Ive been in this hobby for 30 plus years and I already know by listening to a system if it’s good or if it’s lacking. I only swap tubes today if I hear a problem. If it sounds good, I change nothing. My ears tell me when something is transparent, revealing, airy, engaging, natural, and all the beautiful things we want to hear from our systems. If I purchase a new piece of equipment that has Chinese tubes, I very much might keep those tubes in as long as it sounds transparent and good. When I purchased my Conrad Johnson Premier Four, it arrived with 8 Shuguang Chinese EL34’s. First thing I wanted to do was get them out and put something better. But after playing the amp for the first week, I found no issue with the Chinese tubes. To my ears, they sounded great and were doing the trick. So instead of putting in 8 Teslas, I searched for more Shuguang tubes and purchased 16 as backups because in the end, it just sounded fine. I did change out the input and driver tubes on the amp to something better from my vintage stash. I feel setting up a system is a mix of a lot of different stuff. I don’t recommend using the same brand of tubes the same way I wouldn’t recommend using the same brand of cables throughout a system. Building a really nice sounding system is something that is done one step at a time and to get it to be really, really good, it usually takes time tweaking and making little but worthwhile adjustments. It can take yrs till it all finally comes together and the funny thing about this hobby is that when that happens, usually audiophiles still aren’t happy. I do t think many audiophiles will ever be content or happy with their systems. |
Mullard EL34’s are great and there is opinions about the differences in sound between the single and dual getters. I think I have both but never compared to hear which is better. I did evaluate between single getter 1960’s Mullard and 1970’s brown base Tesla dual getters. The amp I used to compare these tubes was a Conrad Johnson MV55, with 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle driver tubes and 1950’s Mullard MCI long plate 12ax7’s driver tubes. The Mullard is just a great all around tube. Very well balanced with Great detail, smoothness and musicality. I found the Tesla, in my amplifier tested, to be more euphoric and engaging. The Tesla had something special that fleshed out the information above the Mullards. Strange thing, even though I feel I was getting a more fleshed out midrange and more immediacy from the Tesla’s, they also had this sense of warmth to them. When I heard the Mullards, no warmth, just musical and straight up good tube. When I play the Teslas, warmth and euphoria and midrange clarity returns. |
lowtubes, though I did not compare EL34 tubes yet, I too can't say that I hear anything special from SED tubes, not that I expected it. They seem to be alright, nothing more. That's why I of course want to find a reasonably priced matched quad of XF1 or XF2 Mullards, even used from a reputable source. Tesla, yes, I heard about them, saw them on ebay and nowhere else. |
Mulveling, good points on the 6SN7’s. Audiojan, reason why I think it’s important for one to hear the tube in ones own system is because what sounds good in someone else system may not sound best in yours and you might have a different preference. Example, many people like the 1940’s Metal base Sylvania 6SN7GT or 6SN7W. I really don’t, I prefer the Sylvania 1945 6SN7W short bottle because I find it sweeter and nicer than the more expensive and sought after metal base (taller bottle) which I find a little too analytical for my taste. The 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle and the 1951-53 Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Domes are probably my favorites from those type tubes. Mulveling, you mentioned Shuguang and JJ Czech in your post. Because I use so many EL34’s, I’m using 8 Shuguang in my CJ Premier Four and in my CJ Premier 1b, using 12 JJ from Slovakia Czech. My VTL all have 16 Russian EL34’s.
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I generally agree with what Kevin says, but we're all individuals and different in key ways. Anyways, he's almost certainly referring to rolling different makes of the same type. Meanwhile, I'm much more willing (than most) to play fast-and loose with rolling different types into power slots, as long as it's guaranteed safe. E.g. KT88 versus KT90 and KT120 or KT150. Depending on amp, you can even mix more different types in there, like EL34, 6L6GC / 7581A, etc. This will certainly make many cringe (maybe Kevin too), because the fact is an amp can only be "optimally" designed for the parameters of 1 output type. That's why I called it "playing fast and loose". But here clear as day, I can hear one of my VAC amps (450S) sounding far better with KT120 than the KT88 it was designed for - in THIS room, on THESE speakers. Meanwhile, another VAC amp (Master 300) sounds far better with the GL KT88 it was designed for, than those same KT120. The sonic difference from these KT88 versus KT120 rolls is far greater than any small-tube rolls. KT150 does the same again, but there I've always found the results too bass-heavy. |
marco1, I see. I just don't want any Asian tubes in my amp, or current production Russian ones, for that matter. I am a NOS or good used Old Stock kind of guy. I just have to use earlier production Svetlana/SED EL34 "Winged" because Western vintage tubes are too expensive, when you can find a matched quad. mulveling, it's interesting what you previously said about power tubes influencing sound more than signal tubes. I remember conversation with Kevin of VAC and he said exactly the opposite. I myself have no opinion, I didn't compare power tubes, but doing a little of tube rolling with 12AX7 in the preamp and 12AU7 in driver slot reveals big differences.
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Right, but these days who else could it possibly be? We could pretty much guess that every time, and be right :)
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@inna rumor is PSvane makes many of the Ray’s tubes. |
@audiojan also try some RCA 5814’s with your Sylvania’s. They are warmish but seem to go nicely with the Sylvania’s I’ve tried in my preamp. |
Yeah, GTA / GTB variants aren’t as good sounding as most of the older 6SN7GT tubes. You would need a GTA / GTB for 2 reasons:
If you find you really need GTA / GTB (these are the same for audio applications), you might look for older 1950’s Sylvanias with deeper chrome tops and (sometimes) tall bottles. Sylvania really started cutting corners on production costs & quality in the 1960s. Their tubes also lost their beautiful midrange, sadly. Then they became Philips ECG and at that point, they practically sound like solid state devices. |
I never thought the Sylvania GTB was anything special. Very warm midrange and extended top. I liked the Raytheon 6SN7 WGT brown base which is a really nice sounding tube. For 12au7’s, I liked Raytheon’s, RCA black plates, Valvos, Brimars, didn’t like many Siemens because in my circuits they sounding bright. |
I'm also going to test different 6sn7's. I already have a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome Tops and I'm getting a pair of Melz 1578's (which likely will take quite some time to arrive since they're coming from Ukraine). They're kind of on two different sides of the spectrum where the SYL is a bit darker and with better bass and scary good midrange than the 1578 which is supposedly a bit brighter, super detailed and widest/deepest sound stage, but lighter in the bass.
I'll keep posting my findings as I get some time to do a proper run through them all (and all combinations...) |
I like Telefunken very much. Always found them to be very open and musical. They last for yrs. In fact all of my tubes, doesn’t matter what brand last and have never worn out. The only tube I remember having problems was the Sylvania triple mica black plate 5751. It’s maybe considered one of the top 5751’s but for me always had a high failure rate. Even all my power tubes have lasted these 30yrs because I have several amps and I use all my amps so my tubes have never failed except for going faulty. I like the 6SN7 tube and I have a lot of the true Sylvania Chrome Domes made in 1952-53 which is a really nice tube. Also have the 1940’s Holy Grail 6SN7 Tung Sol round plate smoke glass. For me, I liked many many of the different vintage 12au7’s including the Mullards but my favorites were the Amperex. I felt Amperex had everything all in one tube. There are many different versions of Amperex 12au7’s, I liked Old World Logo and the 7316. |
Rays select 12AU7 https://apos.audio/collections/top-sellers/products/apos-ray-tube-12au7 |
I spent $450 for very close tolerance within 2% medical grade Telefunken with the red tips worth every penny and last for years. if you want a very good modern tube -12au7 at APIs audio Rays select tubes hand picked closely matched made to a very high standard and a full 1 year warranty for-under $200 . I have the Rays big bulb 6SN7 complementing the Tele 12AU7 in my LSA preamp is sounds very good . |
