The beaten up, heavily used stuff is sold on EBay. |
I love the sellers trying to unload a CD player (yeah, a CD player) that they paid like $20,000 for a few years ago for $12,000. WOW. Try $2,000 maybe. Who is buying these CD players that cost as much as a car???
Take almost ANY decent DAC around $2,000-$4,000 range with good hi-rez 24/96k or 24/192k files and listen to it DESTROY that CD player ALL DAY LONG and twice on Sunday.
This is the reason that many hi-end stores stopped even carrying them and hi-end manufacturers stop making CD player at all. Wadia (one of the "leaders" in digital according to many), stopped making CD players alltogether, as well as many others.
My local hi-end dealer says they are taking LINN DS units under $3,000 and going head-to-head with $10,000+ CD players all the time.
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For some people I suspect light use means they didn't prop their car up on their monoblocks while changing a tire. There are those who have systems in vacation homes, some who have very little free time ( more money than time), and those who don't listen much because their system doesn't engage the listener.
For the most part, I would expect a really good sounding piece to be listed as "heavy, heavy, use-- it sounds so good I can't turn it off." Be forewarned, if I sell a piece as lightly used, you don't want it. |
Same here, light use in general. I refuse to even run in cables because I won't add time on my tubes, I cook them 1 album at a time.
Also, light use means just that with most audiophiles who try a lot of different stuff and do a lot of trading. That is the case with me. |
Im in the same boat as Donjr. Once spring hits Im outside all the time,rarely turn the rig on. Summer comes its so hot in my house I cant sit and relax. Never have used my system for background music,if I cant sit in the sweet spot for awhile it aint going on! Basically have moderate use in the fall/ winter. I feel comfortable saying my equipment has light/moderate use when I sell. |
I'm lucky if my rig gets used once a week spring though the end of summer. Then it's 10 hours a week tops in the winter. |
This means they used it with a light on. |
"It seems to be a law of the universe that all tubes have 200 hours on them"
Yes this is really funny but to me what's funnier still is "NOS" tubes with "low hours" being advertised as NOS. There should be two descriptions for the old tubes from days yonder that are coveted by audiophiles, UsedOS and NewOS. If it's used how can it be new? With the prices of some of these desirable tubes rising to ridiculous levels it will eventually get onto the radar of the professional scammers that are always looking for an angle to make a fast buck or has it already?:) Cavaet Emptor, especially with "lightly" used NOS tubes. |
Ok lets think about this. Most of us have jobs, that means we get about 3 hours after work each night of free time. So maybe 2 to 3 nights and 2 hours on those nights to listen.
If we have kids then that go's down to about 1 hour per night of free time and maybe 2 night of listening at low levels because of the children.
Now we have the weekends, if no children 5 hours per day and with children 3 hours at most.
No Children, 14 hours a week = 728hrs+ per year.
With children 7 hours a week lol = 364hrs+ per year.
Light use I would say yes.
If an owner is like me. I work very long hours during the summer and winter fixing A/C and heating systems. I have very little time to listen if any. I save up to buy new things during the Spring & Fall so some items I have even though a couple of years old really have little time on them. I have an IDecco I purchased a few years ago to see if I liked computer audio. I used it as a DAC for the one spring season. I have not sold it yet because I may have use for it in another room. Even though it is a few years old I will state low use in the ad.
How often do we really put our systems to their limits and abuse them. I cannot be in my room if I set the system to abuse levels anyhow and would be visited by the police if I did.
All this is out the window if the person is under 25 as all I did back then was blare my system.
What gets me is most of us are happy to buy Demo equipment because of the warranty but that equipment is used the most of all and could have 5 time more use at higher levels than used equipment.
IMHO |
Revisiting this thread, lot's of very entertaining posts! |
If you ask the seller the date of manufacture you can find out if he's full of s***. When the seller avoids the question in his response... maybe he's not the original owner as stated or the gear is much older then claimed. Sometimes the seller doesn't even respond. I don't think this question is to intrusive? |
Hifihvn, your missing "remote" scenario (or any undisclosed missing component) is a real peeve of mine as well. Why should a buyer even have to specifically ask if all the original accessories are present? One would "naturally" assume all OEM items should be included, but as you've discovered, your purchase would've arrived without it. And when you confront some seller afterwards, regarding the missing items, merely faults YOU for not asking in advance and refuses to assume any responsibility.
One of my previous Audiogon purchases stated "box" and "manual" in their ad. What actually showed up was a standard cardboard box with a Pass Aleph-5 amp surround by Styrofoam peanuts, BUT, though the OEM box was folded up like origami and tucked inside. Should I really have to ask any specific questions in advance within THAT scenario?
Regarding yet *another* recent EBay transaction; the item was listed as "New-in-box". Anyone selling/buying on EBay, with 200 positive feedback, should know EBay's grading criteria at face value by then, or can read the criteria if in unsure. What I received was a box with several *previous* shipping labels, each item showing light usage, and a used/substituted AC power adaptor. I expected a brand new item, so a claim had to filed. EBay sided with me, but the seller just refused to acknowledge EBay's grading criteria and had the audacity to say I was too fussy and nit-picky, even after Ebay pointed out his error! A few of my Audiogon nightmares were quite similar and have dramatically reduced my trust, plus the current feedback system as mentioned before. |
Yes, all gear is lightly used in a smoke free, pet free, (fish tanks don't count)and child free environment |
Oh,
I've also seen statements "checked by my tech(or dealer) for excellent operational condition few weeks ago"
After unpacking and connecting the unit, you find that the balance knob is off middle position almost to 2 o'clock and indeed you need to keep it there otherwise channels are out of balance. After slight tech-check with DMM immediately found that one of the output transistors gone short. Obviously there was some "cut the cwap" conversation involved about how-to-be-honest-101. |
I can only speak for myself but when I buy an expensive piece of gear I treat it with kid gloves.. I do that for two reasons first I think it's a sin to not take care of any product that's expensive or beautifully made.. Kind of like the rich a'hole who buys a Porsche or BMW and treats it like crap, never washed, door dings, wheels curbed.. I'm sure you've all seen what I'm talking about, too much money and no class. The other reason is that at some point I'll most likely sell the piece of gear and I want to get as much money back as I can, sell it as quickly as I can, and not have to make any apologies about it's condition, or that I'm a dick for not taking care of it :-) |
JohnK your comment "Who buys used headphones anyway? Like buying a used shoe..." is quite surprising.
I beleive that for most folks, headphones are a secondary items compared to speakers (not everyone of course, but I would think a good 80%).
Headpnone have pad or earcovers that can be fully cleaned borderline aseptized when not completely replaced for not much money. Your "shoe" analogy bears no comparison here. Now, maybe you find $29.95 box-store specials ok, and there's nothing wrong with that.
But if you are shopping for headphones in the $300 a $1,500 price bracket, and wish to pay full retail, be my guest. |
"Light use" means they didn't listen in the dark. I thought everyone knew that.
Have to agree about the credibility failure of those who claim they only took it out of the box to take pictures/never used.
Let's face it - buying used is a crap shoot but Audiogon, for most of us, has been relatively low risk.
Also agree that the feedback function has been rendered meaningless, probably due to some lawyer's advice.
I've got stuff to sell but not a lot, maybe a few grand worth. It just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble anymore. Maybe my heirs will sell it someday, if they can figure out what they have. |
Who buys used headphones anyway? Like buying a used shoe... |
While on the subject about ads, a lot of people have CD players/transports and other items that came with a remote. Some items have limited, or no functions without the remote. In their ads, there is no mention of them. When you email them, a lot don't have them. I've never sold anything here, but have done a lot of buying and selling in the past. We *always* mentioned if the remote was missing, or had heavy wear, that came with the unit. Actually, the only time I remember remotes missing, were at pawn shops. Yes it happens during moving or some other unusual occasions, but in general, it seems to be pawn shop merchandise in my experience. |
Thats funny...I have noticed that as well. I wish I had the income to allow me to buy tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear to never listen too it. I personally use my stuff, I take care of it, but I USE my stuff no matter what it is. I'll probably never sell anything on here....but if I do you can bet it won't say "light use"..lol. |
I will not consider gear if a picture is not posted with the add. I also want to see the original specs in the body of the add so I don't have to go searching all over the place to find them. I'm not sure why anyone thinks I would spend $5000 on something sight unseen but I'd test drive a $1000 winter beater. What I like about pictures is that I can quickly see how a person takes care of their gear. I will not consider gear when the picture..
-shows a dust covered piece of equipment (lazy slacker)
-was taken in your garage, sidewalk or deck (stored in garage?)
-is from the manufacturers web site (hiding something or just lazy?)
-was taken with the gear on your wall to wall carpeting (why?)
-is taken so far away I can't pick it out from your other gear
Dents are absolutely out of the question. I can understand a scratch but not multiple scratches. Then I know you're running through the woods with your equipment : ) |
My Nordost interconnects I am selling have light use, maybe too light, as my ad vanished today with the new download. LOL Hopefully they will come back in a few days. |
Since I built a dedicated listening room I seems to listen to music less. It takes time away from my family.
I enjoy talking to my wife and playing with my animals.
My dedicated room room is on my first levevl of my house with one chair in it. I do put in more chairs if I have more than a few people come over to listen to music.
So my my main system does have very light use. I take the time on the weekend for a few hours of some very good listening but my wife and family also need my time.
I always wanted a dedicated listening room and now that I have one, I really do enjoy it but would like to have my main syssten upstairs were I could listen to it more and also spend time with the family. My dogs and cats are not allowed in the sound room, no drinking or smoking either.
Bottom line my main equipment is lightly used.
Joe Nies |
Yes, this feedback situation complicates the matter. I always talk, usually through e-mails, before offering anything, trying to read between the lines of the conversation and in the item description. I also don't buy very popular stuff which, I think, more often ends up in the hands of people who are not very honest audiophiles.
Say, it is less likely perhaps to be screwed up by those who sell LAMM, VAC, Gryphon or Nottingham than by those who sell some other brands. And I mean individuals not dealers.
As for light use of equipment, some people drive hard their amps and speakers so even 2000 hours will not be light use. With players, yeah, there is another problem, they can just stop playing next day after you bought them.
For example, I have an eleven years old CEC belt drive player. After about 3000 hours I had to replace the belt, now it plays just like new but it might break any day nonetheless. |
Tpreaves, Sonicbeauty stated "feedback" on 12/21 regarding any submitted negative feedback must be *agreed to* by the other party, or nothing gets posted within the current feedback system. Why would anyone agree if they have a choice, hence the ridiculous system, and why hardly anyone has negatives in their profiles - all so that Audiogon maintains a goody-goody, trusting persona.
I'm all too familiar with Sonicbeauty's experience, and even though I ask all the right questions to reduce condition discrepancies, including all original OEM components, literature and packaging, and addressing any additional concerns to minimize surface chaffing or other shipping protections - equipment still arrives in sub-advertised condition - unaffiliated with courier handling.
My negative experiences with EBay purchases are even higher in percentage, and as Sonicbeauty stated, is a complete waste of time and energy on various levels. At least one can leave negative feedback on EBay.
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What do you guys think about the line that goes like this:
" I just took them out of the box to take these photographs."
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Sonicbeauty, a "negative review" and "negative feedback" are two different things. Which one were you denied? |
After much discussion and haggling, I was finally able to return the product. Still, this proved to be an unbelievable waste of time not to mention the frustration of having to fight for some respect here.
This does not take away from the fact that this seller presented his product wrongfully in the first place. After numerous times I gave up trying to post a negative review as my attemps were in vain. Definitely made me question the objectivity of the whole feedback process. |
"I once purchased a "very slightly used" 9/10 pair of AKG headphones. Arrived in a shape suggesting they had been abused, permanent rubbing marks and all. This product had gone to hell and back and was a 6/10 at best.
Unfortunately, Audiogon never let me post negative feedback..."
Could you please eleborate on this. I never tried to post negative feedback but it would seem to me that if the item was not in advertised condition you should have been able to return it to the seller for a refund or that would constitute grounds for negative feedback? |
Actually, my concerns have more to do with careless owners with recent gear than carefull owners with older equipment.
I dont mind if an amp has a lot of mileage on it. I'll take this any day over a newer unit that has been moved around and nicked to death.
I once purchased a "very slightly used" 9/10 pair of AKG headphones. Arrived in a shape suggesting they had been abused, permanent rubbing marks and all. This product had gone to hell and back and was a 6/10 at best.
Unfortunately, Audiogon never let me post negative feedback... |
"Light use" is one of the Audiogon descriptors for classifying your equipment during the posting an ad process. It is part of the "9" rating. Maybe there should be away to differentiate perfect in appearance, that does not suggest the piece was hardly used. |
Couple thoughts. I have benefited from others impatience in allowing time for burn in. In such a case, I surmise that the seller concluded it is not what they are looking for after few hours, when in fact, they obviously needed to put some more hours on it.
Another thought is that some people are subject to impulse buying, or perhaps are just dealing with poor synergy with other pieces.
I have found little reason to question the veracity of most of the listings on this site. The trust that enables us to sell our used gear on this site is essential for most of us to be able to continue in this hobby. Its not worth picking up a few extra bucks on a sale.
BTW, I have a lightly used 12 yr old pair of Maggies for sale, fully broken in, but just barely. Not only do they sound great, but they also make outstanding sleds. Just a few nicks here and there from hitting a tree. Almost impossible to see the damage from 500'. At price, I'll through in a NOS 1962 Mullard GZ34 that I bought from E-Bay. Tests good, sounds like crap. |
The key is to look at a buyer's/seller's feedback and have a real time conversation with the other party before committing to ANYTHING. I have purchased both excellent, accurately represented equipment here and also mediocre that barely scraped past honest description. When selling the key is to underrate just a bit so as to exceed expectations so that buyer has that AHH experience and provides A+++ feedback. |
I realize there's a lot of skepticism about the "low hour" claim by many sellers. Much of it deserved.
However, IME there are many audiophiles who are constantly turning over equipment in search of the holy grail.
If you can identify these folks, there's a high probability what you are buying is truly very lightly used.
IMO |
These mega-buck speakers were played lightly, ONLY with the BEST ancillary equipment, what a laugh.
They have a memory for the next buyer, BEWARE. |
You people are tap dancing around the word 'dishonest' |
And of course everything for sale is the best the seller has ever heard. One can only assume they prefer to keep the 2nd best they've ever heard. Dr Phil where are you.... |
It seems to be a law of the universe that all tubes have 200 hours on them. |
Don't forget all the refurbished 20 year old stuff like adcom amps. |
Whow what a wonderful world .Only 50% is true. |
Can't guarantee audiogon blue book would have much on that model in that many rarer models do not have a lot of data, but for the monthly fee it is generally a good investment. Audiogon blue book is worth having whenever seriously considering buying used expensive gear.
I'm not familiar with that specific Onkyo but Onkyo has made some beauties that also perform quite well over teh years. |
Mapman:
Thanks for your answer. I was thinking of the Onkyo M-510 for sale on this site. It's so beautiful, that being operational, is almost incidental. hahhahaha |
"What are the major considerations in evaluating old equipment and what is considered a good price vs the original MSRP."
The same as any other except issues are more likely with older gear so assume that by default until you are able to disprove. Not a bad rule in general.....
Original msrps from years ago are not really that meaningful for determining current value I would say. You have to look at current market prices and establish the true condition of the gear in question, again probably always a best practice regardless when buying. |
"The ads with the high prices that just sit there are another one I can't figure out. I thought they want to sell something, but they won't adjust their prices into reality."
In that case they are clearly fishing for suckers. They want to sell but only if it translates to a big payday and are willing to wait. |
I have seen some beautiful, immaculate amps that I would like to have, esp the Japanese ones with the big meters, but when you click on 'research this item' they are sometimes as much as 25 years old. What are the major considerations in evaluating old equipment and what is considered a good price vs the original MSRP. |
I'm sort of an audio hoarder. I have stuff sitting in the closet for years. Stuff like cartridges, amps, preamps. Even some of it in sealed (NOS) boxes. Some of it does only have a couple of hours, from trying it out. A lot of NOS spare tubes. The stuff I use every day is another story. High hours that are unmeasured. There are ads I've seen where the people must not be audio people. Auction resellers I'm guessing. The description they use just doesn't fit. Those ads make me curious at times. Ads for CD players that say low hours, but a tired (dim) fluorescent display says a lot there. The stuff here looks a lot better at times, than some Fleabay ads. Use your better judgment.
The ads with the high prices that just sit there are another one I can't figure out. I thought they want to sell something, but they won't adjust their prices into reality. |
I tend to believe most on this site keep their gear in good shape and these represent fair values used for the most part.
Of course always exceptions.
And sure, sellers always look to put the best spin on a product no matter what or where. Exaggeration is a fact of life, especially when there will be no evidence to the contrary.
Best to deal with those with a good reputation and history of being accurate and reliable whenever possible. I always ask lots of questions before buying used to help gauge. It has worked out pretty well. I have probably participated in a couple of dozen audio related transactions between here and ebay over the last 5 years or so. Only one bad experience on ebay, involving a deadbeat buyer, though that one was a couple of years back and helped tame my enthusiasm for ebay. |
Schubert,
So far I kept Totem Forest speakers over 10 years.
Can't say anything about light use though. |
I guess as they say "you don't have to eat the whole egg to know it is rotten"
sell it and move on...
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Audiopiles usually don't keep things long enough to use much. |
