Wisdom of buying high priced digital gear (given new advancements underway)
Wanted to ask for thoughts from others on the forum who have been playing with digital front ends longer than I... I only recently dove into streamed hi res music given the Covid shut-in...(although I am climbing the learning curve pretty fast)
I have been an avid trader/tester of good used hifi gear for many years now, a cost effective way of auditioning and understanding high end pieces in my own system, my own home. Not for publication or posted reviews, just for my enjoyment and improving my own rig. Buy smart on the front end, can usually get all or most of your money back when you sell, so it is a fairly low cost trial and ownership experience.
As I am fairly new to the world of stand-alone streamers and DACs, as well as combo units like a Hegel amp with onboard DAC, my question is whether it is wise to buy some of the more expensive high end streamers and DACs, say in the 3-4-5 grand (and up) range.
For instance, a Bluesound Node 2i is a capable digital bit-source (weak internal DAC noted) at only $500, so I question the benefit of buying a $2-3-4k unit from Innuos, Brooklyn, Auralic etc etc? But if I do, just to try them, I am concerned there will be newer units out in the future, and these used units may take significant value hits.
Same thought for high end DACs... there are so many DACs out there, from high-value units like Chord, Schitt, RME for around a grand (or even less) -- what is the downside risk of climbing the curve of diminishing returns to get, say, for example, a Denafrips Terminator or PS Audio DS or Chord Dave for $4-5-6 grand used?
I guess what I am really asking is what is the relative stability of the technology, product development, and the trickle down effect in the streamer and DAC markets, and does this materially affect the loss of value for the higher priced units more so than with old school analog gear. This is something I feel I pretty well understand for speakers, preamps, turntables, the like...but not so much for the digital stuff, especially as streaming is really developing fast on the high end scene in recent years...
Digital sound quality has advanced pretty rapidly over the last decade or two, and less expensive newer models have often closed the SQ gap with more expensive older models. So it is kind of difficult to pay the extra bucks for the more expensive streamers and DACs.
However, it’s hard to say whether the better SQ for less money trend will continue or what will happen with digital. Will someone come out with a new DAC that renders everything else obsolete? Could happen. Will some of us die before that occurs? Could happen.
I think one should be careful to get good value when buying digital, but from what I read, there is better sound to be obtained by spending more. Sometimes much better sound.
So it’s hard to say whether you should go for the high value, lower priced units or stretch for the diminishing return, incremental but significant improvement higher priced units. The world of audio just seems to be getting more complicated, just like life in general.
1. I separate my streamer/transport/network server from my DAC to provide greater flexibility in future system changes.
2. I have chosen a DAC manufacturer who not only makes upgrades available but always has a generous trade-up policy. In my case Lampizator - who only depreciates the DAC by 1% monthly off the MSRP when applied towards a new upgraded unit. So even after 2 years I can still apply 76% of MSRP towards a new unit if I feel it presents a good value.
One's perspective is very much based on one's budget ... so I don't think there is any one "right" answer. Given the rapid rate that the technology has advanced, especially with respect to DACs, that I view DAC years very much like dog years. That is why I personally prefer to maintain the DAC as a more or less stand alone component. I'm more comfortable with the idea of a DAC with an integrated streamer than I am of buying an integrated amp for it's integrated DAC. My amp is 20 years old now. I picked up my preamp in 2004. I've had my speakers since 2011. But a year ago I bought a new DAC and moved a DAC that I'd had for less than 5 years to a second system. Nothing wrong with the old DAC. But the new one simply was that much better for around the same money I'd paid the first time.
I paid $1560 last month for a new Benchmark DAC3B. I was thinking this would be a good backup DAC or a DAC for the second headphone system I am also building. Well it turned out that the DAC3B sounds extremely good to my ears and the thoughts of spending more on another DAC do not make that much sense to me anymore.
I think my Benchmark preamp, HPA4 is likely the reason this DAC sounds so good. The noise level on these 2 components are almost non-existent. I am getting a new preamp next week for the second system and I will test the DAC3B with that preamp to see if it also sounds the same. The second preamp is not as quiet.
My plan is to use neutral and quiet components on the preamp and DAC and add some sweetener with the amps and maybe speakers. I think some of the more expensive DACs have some flavor to them which people like (maybe the exception being the Mola Mola Tambaqui).
For a streamer, I use the Sonore microRendu. You can get them for $429. I paid something like $700 for mine 5 years ago. It still works great.
Maybe analogous to smartphones. Yes the tech will increases rapidly but that’s a great thing! Would you still wish to be using an iPhone 4?
Before someone quibbles with the analogy yes of course the rate of advancement is different across the industries but the general point is the same. With much advancement comes much improved sound. Whether to pay for it? As always a personal decision
I have pretty much decided for now it is not worth it to go for a more expensive streamer than my Node 2i and Sonos w/ reclocker - both are nice, clean bit sources with good useability. I think todays’s streamer choices are more tied to user interface, which can vary all over the map in quality, flexibility and ease of use. SQ is pretty decent as long as the bitstream is low jitter. I have not given in to the Roon thing yet, despite its purported superiority - prefer to see if Roon survives the streaming shake-out that is likely coming. Shouldn’t surprise us if a few years down the road only Spotify and Amazon are the whales -- having eaten Tidal, Deezer, Quboz all niche players...
DAC’s are more challenging and unclear. I agree that some inexpensive DACs sound really really good. On a lark, I picked up an old Van Alstine TOPP FET tube DAC for $400 - old thing, 15 years old, NOS Philips chip, big box, redbook input only -- but OMG it sounds so right! Better to me than hi res thru a ’modern DAC’ like a Topping D90 with newest AKM chip... which is clear but somewhat bleached out, much more mechanical sounding...
Also got a nice MHDT NOS R2R tube DAC and a Border Patrol to try... they are both sub $1K pieces used, sound very organic and musical, with excellent detail and slam in my system. Just wondering how much better the DACs are that are 3-4-5-6x in price.... not sure I want to pay to find out!
I think some perspective helps. On the DAC side, there was a rather dramatic improvement in sound quality from the introduction of CD through the Introduction of, say, the Levinson 30/31. And, for me, while digital sound has improved, the improvement is smaller than the leap from the introduction of digital music, via the CD, to the release of the 30/31. I'd suggest, based on hearing a 31.5/30.6 vs. a dCS Rossini, that there has been less improvement in terms of sound quality over that timeframe than before. It's rather funny to host a demonstration (well, pre-COVID) and to play something modern, like the Benchmark DAC3 vs an old Meridian 563 or 566 or an older Theta or an older Wadia. Most people say the older DACs sound better - go figure!
Streamers appear to have undergone a similar rapid development that is now slowing. Martin Colloms implied that the Naim ND555 with two 555 power supplies is the finest source he has ever heard. Interesting, then, to juxtapose that with Naim's own R&D head saying there was not a clear winner between the ND555 and its predecessor, the NDS. Less expensive streamers appear to be the beneficiary, as their price/performance ratio appears to be improving as companies work to improve them. On the other hand, the sonic difference between the newer Naim NDX2 and its predecessor, the NDX, is relatively small, which the NDX2 counters by providing more services (amongst other things).
So, to answer your question, I'd say find what you like and stay with it. "Worth" is entirely too subjective and dependent a term for anyone to answer here.
Software services however could change at any time. Tidal has been rumored to be on rocky financial ground for instance, and the Amazon music service is relatively new and not interfaced by all (i.e. Roon).
My solution has been to use a Linux Roon server/ Pi streamer with Mytek Brooklyn DAC.
I think it’d be worthwhile to buy a better streamer used to see what kind of improvement you get. If it’s “meh” just sell it for little loss, but those who’ve upgraded from the Node to the likes of Innuos, Lumin, etc. seem to say pretty consistently that it’s a fairly significant upgrade. Just my $0.02.
One of the benefits of something like the Node2i is there is a reasonably good sized company behind it which means the likelihood of good software support for an extended period, which could become important as things like digital rights/etc. change. As someone mentioned above, splitting that function from the DAC gives you flexibility of upgrade without saddling yourself with an expensive function that becomes obsolete.
What does more expensive streamer get you? We are transferring bits over Ethernet or USB. My understanding is better streamers have lower analog noise transferred on the wire to the DAC.
A fiber optical cable (not the same as Toslink) is said to not be able to carry this analog noise. So wouldn’t a streaming solution that incorporated fiber optical from your network switch be the ultimate solution?
If and when I need a second streamer I will get the SystemOptique system from these guys. My current "noisy" microRendu works well.
If I win a lottery today I may get the Lumin X1 DAC with built-in Fiber Optical streaming input. My prediction is future DACs will also have this type of FIbre Optical input.
BTW - I was talking on A’gon PM with someone who bought the ROON only version of this SystemOptique and said it was better than his Bluesound Node 2i.
New technology and advances in quality and cost are always a consideration. Many things do get better and cheaper in time. I paid $900 for my first VCR in the early 80s. My first calculator, a Texas Instrument model cost $79.00 and the characters were tiny. I still have it just for sentimental reasons. High Def TVs are getting better and cheaper every day. I know I'm not telling you folks anything you don't already know, I just wanted to reminisce a little and offer my two cents. I don't post often but I love this site. I read it every day and have learned a lot, thanks. Doug Hess, Newtown Square, Pa.
What is "high priced"? In the context of a $500 Node 2i, then perhaps my $2K TEAC NT-505 is "high priced". In the context of my vinyl playback system and most of the other components in my system, it's a bargain.
The NT-505 was a noticeable improvement over my Node 2 / Auralic Vega DAC combination. So spending more can get you more. Would a $10K DAC sound that much better than my $2K DAC? I would expect there to be a little more resolution and detail, but how much more?
The difference between $500 and $2000 is not that much to me, but the difference between $2000 and $10000 is.
The NT-505 is pretty much a closed system - streamer and DAC, no upgrades other than adding an external master clock and whatever firmware upgrades come out for it. There's no digital out, so if some must have feature comes out, I have no way to connect it with an external DAC that has that magic feature.
I don't feel stuck at all, I'm not sure what new feature is going to come out that is going to make me feel like I have to replace what I have. I trade components out of my system on a somewhat frequent basis, but I can see this piece staying for a long time.
I had a friend over last night and until recently he owned a $13K Lumin X1 and overall has a much more expensive system (one of the best I've ever heard). After listening for a bit, he asked me to write down the name of the NT-505 so he could do some research on it. I don't think he thought the NT-505 was better, but it was clear that after living with a top of the line DAC like the X1 he was impressed by the sound quality of my much less expensive DAC.
My favorite DAC, the MHDT Labs Orchid, doesn't do MQA, DSD, or Roon, and only outputs at 16 bits. All of which mean nothing to me, because I enjoy listening to it, which is what matters the most. To me.
re the node 2i, yep, i have it... good streamer, poor dac, good interface, but really can’t complain for the $
@big_greg
i pretty much agree with your definition of expensive... i am lucky to be able to afford most audio equipment, short of the insane megabuck pieces. losing a couple hundred bucks on a piece is no problem, when its over a grand or more on a single piece, i think carefully
i also agree on your notion that it is all about how good it sounds, could care less about MQA or high res in and of themselves, but since they have a lot attention through marketing if nothing else, i have checked them out to see what they have to offer... and in doing so, the original posted question has come to mind
streaming services are in flux, wifi bandwidth and usage is in flux, chip companies and hifi equipment makers big and small keep working on new stuff, for better or worse, from an audiophile sound quality perspective
Has anyone tried using a Schitt Modi Multibit DAC with their Node 2i? If so, would you provide your opinion of the improvement, if any, of using this external Schitt R2R DAC over the Bluesound Node 2i's internal DAC? Thanks,
New advancements are always underway. Denying a purchase because something new/better will be coming out can induce paralysis (deer in headlights). The same thing occurs with photographers: they delay purchasing new cameras out of concern that a better model will come out after they bought the latest camera. But they miss the enjoyment and quality pictures they could be taking NOW. As noted it is a good idea to pick a company that offers solid software upgrades. For example: Linn came out with new versions of thier Space Optimization technology which is a major option and cost nothing for owners of Linn DSM boxes...
your point is well taken but the intent of my original post is to define a price point where purchasing modern digital gear makes sense (for normal people who value money and have competing priorities for spending of it) to get very good quality and minimizing the risk of 'wasting' money as things move on
i have come to the conclusion that about $1000 for a streamer (used) and $1500-1800 (used) max are the cut off points for me... i have tried several highly regarded streamers and dacs more expensive than these levels now, and i have formed my opinion of where the sweet spots are in their value curves - just my opinion, using my system, my ears, my sense of the value of money
@jetter
don’t know about modi - it is schiit’s bottom dac... i tried a bifrost mb it was ok but somewhat sibilant, sold it, currently have a gumby in house, it is nicer for sure. warmer, clearer, less sibilant all at the same time than the bifrost as i remember it
if you want a really inexpensive dac to beat the pants off the internal node 2i dac i suggest a chord mojo... some ergonomic differences to be navigated but the sound is absolutely superb for how inexpensive that cute lil thing is
Thanks for the feedback, the chord mojo is the other dac I am considering. The reason I was interested in the Schitt Modi Multibit is because it is considered a R2R dac and many think the R2Rs have a more analog or at least musical presentation. Also, truth be told, its the least expensive R2R being sold.
The threshold for all this is up to the indidual. The “that’s just silly money” point for one person might be the bare minimum for another. I see a ton of “all DACs sound the same” and “don’t spend money on a DAC as it will be obsolete in a month” posts on audio forums. Its not like DACs stop working just because some new box comes out.I have a friend who has a 20-year-old Proceed processor/DAC and it still performs and sounds wonderful. It might not do MQA but the level of decades long service is commendable.
Buying this stuff is like everything else: do your research, audition (if possible) and spend your own hard earned money wisely. I think the important thing is paying attention to the used market: regardless of price range you want a box that has solid resale potential if you decide to upgrade or go in a different direction. Some tech and brands will go out of flavor which impacts resale potential. It happens. I am also a paddler. Long sturdy kayaks with rudders were once all the rage but today folks want shorter, lighter boats with a skeg. When to buy and when to sell is all part of this game...
Roberttd, a.k.a Atdavid, now Danna is back ! Under a new handle this time. Again! ... Why do you have to resurface under different usernames anyways? Why are you doing this?
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