I own 2.5 way speakers which are very simple to drive and I agree that full range speakers may go lower but are extremely difficult to drive, there is no shortage of LF at my listening room , Sometimes I miss my sub once watching action movies but for music listening adding a sub to my system is absolutely unnecessary.
Wilson Audio Haters
I've always wondered why there are so many people out there, that more than any other speaker manufacturer, really hate the Wilson line. I own Maxx 2's and also a pair of Watt Puppys. They are IMHO quite wonderful.
Why does Wilson get so much thrashing?
429 responses Add your response
People don't understand what a subwoofer does, when you read the reactions overhere it is stil clear that people have no idea. Stealth Low frequency will always create a superior sound quality than any stereo system without it. Stealth Low Frequency showed; - stage became wider and deeper - instruments and voices becomes more tanbible. - at very low volums you have a much deeper freq response. - In the mid freq the sound becomes richer and shows more diversity - the energy of instruments come more apparent of the loudspeakers. When you play with a system with big speakers which can reach 20hz. You still need to play at high level to get this low. All the test with huge speakersystems showed that at very low volume level you missed the drive. Stealth Low Frequency also goes deep with even very low volume. - new people who auditoned Stealth Low Frequency for the first time, often use the word Reference level. It goes so much further than what is possible with just loudspeakers. I have many stereo clients who never used a subwoofer for stereo use before. Just like me. When a subwoofer by S.A.P. and Stealth Low freqency is uses it creates a new level in integration but also in a higher level of the low frequency of the whole system. The accuracy of Stealth Low Frequency makes it easy to use subwoofers till 120-140hz. This is also something people don't know. When you connect a subwoofer without S.A.P. you go to an inferior level of timing. This is the level you all know. You all judge based on this information. Again this is audio 1980 thinking. The Pl-500 creates a stunning level in low frequency without a subwoofer. But when you bring in the subwoofer by S.A.P. the people their faces says it all. The level in sound quality goes to an even higher level. They all understood after the demo how important the subwoofer becomes based on Stealth Low Freq. This only can be reached when you get the subwoofer in phase. And also the exact location were it has been put. Without roomcorrection a subwoofer is useless. The roomcorrection systems use in subwoofer are able to limit the acoustic problems. But there is a huge but....... It don't places it in phase and the right position. This is the level you all know. This level is in my world 100% unacceptable in result. I understand the reactions. But they are based on the fact that you still think in 1980 knowledge and insight. |
The Pl-500 is created this way because they wanted to build a loudspeaker what used the best configuration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24vv7fsA3NY When you audition them you will understand why they used it. The load of the low frequency are separated over 4 drivers. I never audioned this level in authority in this price range. The mid frequency are also separated over 2 drivers. Again it creates a new level of physical image we never auditioned in this price before. Ofcourse there are better speakers, but they will cost a lot more. We always focus on what is the highest level you can create in each price range. For all the trail and error people overhere I will proof that what I wrote is 100% True. I am looking forward to all the reactions.......:) |
My clients understand now how extreme limited most people are in audio. All the reactions are all the same. They all laugh about 2D sound and calll it inferior or standard audio. They are able now to correct the people in audio shops. Their systems outperform all the inferior trial and error systems in shops. These days we laugh about it, it is insane that people ask 275.000 euro for a hifi stereo system with a stage of 1 metre. They even called it highend. When we asked a few simple questions they were not able to answer it. Most systems have no foundation. That is why over 99% of all systems are 2D. Beside this the level of emotion is very poor as well. Each single person will never be satisfied with a 2D system after time. All the discussions I had with people who owned and paid a lot of money on audio were the same. They were honest and had the gutts to speak free and said: I was never really happy with the systems I own. There are also people who will defend their system and choices till they die. These are the people who limit themselves. Inside they know they are not happy. We cannot help people who don’t want to be informed. The people who reacted the most overhere in the last week, have budget systems they think it is stuning. Okay you are amatures, but you write overhere if you know it all. I bet you have not done thousands of test in many price ranges just as me. Trial and error is an amature way of creating an audio system. I understand thay you work like this, but it always will be extremely ineffective. For those I will proof it with all my love :) I will send the proof especially for these people. I can proof and garantee (wanna bet on money?......please do:) that their choices are done by trial and error. Beside this they own many products which have superior competitors in their price range. |
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@ct0517 ; hahahahahahahha, mannnnn you have a nice 2D system. I auditoned many of the products you own. I can garantee you 100% and I invite you to make a shootout with your products against superior products in their price range. They products you chose are by far not the best in their price range. Maybe you are an amature, I can garantee you could have created a superior level for the money you spend. B&W 800 is also a 2D loudspeaker. No one can change that, and you can't either :) |
Geez Bo. Sigh. Telling everyone else that they are audio neanderthals and that the only systems that create accurate depth and "emotion" are those of your design is a good bit over the edge. Get a grip. Was not your mental database of what you consider to be superior components formed by trial and error? When will all of your promises to "unveil" the validation of your magical talents through viable and credible channels actually come to fruition? Dave |
The problem in audio is that most products in each price range are rather poor. They will never make any person happy. Soon we will discuss Tru-Fi with manufacturers. Because audio is a market what decreases. We want to reach more people who are now not interested in audio. When we visit shows, shops, distributers and new clients we see that the level of most audio systems will never create a satisfied feeling. You cannot go on this way. It will have a negative influence on audio in the comming years. We want a higher level for all people all over the world. What I said; it is not about me. We want to give people the experience to feel the emotion of music. We are a team of audio fanatics who are all perfectionists and only go for the best. Maybe it is my idea, but I am just one person of the whole team. I use the experience and knowledge of different people who are just as fanatic as I am. Togheter we can create new products and a superior level in sound&vision. We all have the same goal; to become the best company in sound&vision in the world. This is not only selling products, but also a lot of research and doing tests. The team of our company gives me the freedom to focus even more on new products and qualtiy. It is a addiction for me to improve sound&vison over and over again. Each single person has his own task and part of our company. I never loved my job so much as this moment. Because the time I spend in research and test created a superior level in bith sound&vision. I still want to improve it time after time. This is what I love. My team gives me this freedom. I am thankful to do it togheter with all these unique people. |
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D.A.R.T. is the only company in HI-FI that offers the Wilson hater or other audiophiles the ability to truly decouple listener from room induced resonance issues that plague all lesser systems mostly causing the 2 D effect. This nasty R.I.R.I. that plagues all listeners in all rooms is greatly reduced by addition of D.A.R.T. audiophile isolation. Our new improve Chromium-Molybdenum ball hitch fastened to our proprietary tech tone-wood spiked chair greatly reduces the destructive listener seating fatigue or LSF that was problematic with early D.A.R.T. offerings. Not any more!! we as audiophiles spend much money and effort on reducing unwanted resonances in our rooms and components why not take the next logical step and isolate listener? We at D.A.R.T. have surrounded ourselves with best designers ever to have existed in the total of human existence why not take advantage of this and fully isolate your body from room? enter code IAMNOTSOSMART to recieve 110% discounts off full retail pricing for more -DARTaudiophiledecoupling at CompuServe.com |
@jmcgrogan2 @bo1972 , I WISH I could afford 1980 gear!!! That’d be terrific!!! Who needs a audio system to satisfy them? Bo, your comedy is all the entertainment anyone needs to feel satisfied! You provide zero substance, but your material is hilarious! You really should look into writing a nice book on audio.......to be sold in to fiction section of course, with lots of 3-D pictures. Hahaha! Keep enlightening all of us with your wealth of knowledge your Imperial Grand Wizard!!! ;^) |
And stil there is a lot of audioblindness. It is not black&white. Audio is all about sound and how you can reveal the emotion the music possesses. This only can be reached when a system owns all the different parts which can be there to reveal all the different parts which are needed to show the emotion. Trial and error systems always show that they are incomplete. We will use presentations to explain this and show it as well. This is how we work, always based on shootouts and comparison. We even can use different songs to explain each part of Tru-Fi. This makes it more easy to understand. We did it with many of our clients. Sound has nothing to do with personal taste. You want music to sound as it sounds in real. That is the only thing what is important. For example: almost all 2D systems build voices and instruments on the same line. But in real there is a lot of depth and space between them. This makes it very easy to understand that 2D sound is not natural. Most systems are not able to create diversity in sound. And again it is very easy to let people hear a system without diversity and with diversity. It makes people become aware how important diversity is en that this is needed to experience the emotion of the music. Like voices and instruments are very direct and small in demension. We call this intimate sound. We will use students of the conservatory to show how small and direct voices and instruments are. And what intimate does means and does with your emotion. And we also want to use them to show what diversity in sound means and does with your emotion. Tru-Fi is all about how voices and instruments sounds in real. This has northing to do with personal taste. We think and we believe that audio is all about a personal taste. This is how some people told us. And we believe that this is the truth. But when we ask people different questions about voices and instruments in real they have no idea how it sounds. Tell me how do you want to create an audio system when you don’t know this. This explains how silly it is and that trial and error never will create an audio system what comes even a little close to how it should sound. When people will become aware that sound owns different properties and togheter they build the sound and stage what we hear. They will understand that it is not about personal taste. That it is about the truth, real live music. |
I was able to listen to a set of Sasha Series 2 and also a set of Alexx speakers today. I personally thought the Sasha's were better. I was picking up a little hum on the Alexx speakers that I didn't notice on the SS2's. The 2 systems were not identical so there could have been some other factor that was causing the noise, however, I still liked the all around feel and look of the Sasha's more. There were a few bass notes that I noticed on the Alexx over the Sasha, I think due to the 2 different size woofers. But overall I enjoyed the Sasha's listening experience more. If I could take home a set today regardless of price it would be a set of Sasha Series 2's. As a note I'm still pretty new to the Audiophile program so my input might not be warranted to a full scale reviewer. |
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The Watt/Puppies image like 3D. Most people don't like flat FR response, although they think they do. Wilson spks are not set and forget; they must be set up right. Room acoustics and cables should be optimized with a set of ears which can hear. Not for low quality source material, but gets it with the high end crowd. |
jmcgrogan25,689 posts02-18-2017 11:57amHahaha!If a man is standing in the corner muttering to himself, do you engage him or walk away? |
I have continuously owned Wilson Audio Speakers over the past 15 years, I'm currently on my 5th pair (Sasha 2) and have been very happy with the performance and quality of the excellent products offered by this outstanding American Company. Unfortunately, far too many posted opinions are from Members that have admittedly never owned, or even seen a pair of Wilson Audio Speakers, yet will freely post negative views on their products. Prospective Buyers soliciting advice on Wilson Audio Speakers should do so from current and previous Owners, imo. |
I unfortunately see a lots of propensity for hate in this country. There just seems to be no lack of people flowing with hate through their veins. Look at the result of the past election. Tragic! The very high end expensive speakers engender a large amount of hateful post and badmouthing due to what appears to be due to envy and invidia. I wonder if this is universal in other countries as it is in the U.S. Hate is ugly in all forms. |
Skytop, I believe that the word "hate" is used far too often to describe what is more accurately disagreement or difference of opinion. In the current environment any opposing perspective is so quickly (and easily) deemed to be hate (ful). I don't consider the result of the recent presendential election "tragic" and certainly not a sign or affirmation of hate. Quite the contrary in my opinion. We have a very different perspective, I don't hate you. In regard to the thread topic, people can dislike Wilson and express this in some cases with passion. It's over the top to refer to this as hate. Charles |
Independent of Audio hobby, in this society there is a population of people who clearly are motivated by severe, diabolical hate and not by mere disagreement. Their hate is now yielded damage. Perhaps TV, Hollywood actors and social media are espousing and manipulating such bizarre behavior. In any rate, they are definitely exhibiting and motivated by raw HATE. 'Nuff said. |
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Thought this was as good a place as any to post this...lol My experience with Wilson Last week I bought a used pair of Wilson Witt mk1 ( yes the cheapest Wilsons you can get, gotta start somewhere!) After spending about 60 minutes or so working on placement, although they ended up very close to previous Focal 826v placement, I sat down for some critical listening impressions. 4 hours later I was still there, with the grin getting wider possibly in direct relation to the increasing volume I was trying. Definitely my ears gave up before the Wilsons did! Very very solid powerful controlled bass, great soundstage and vocals. BUT......they definitely do not suffer poor source material to wit.... Was playing Tidal and 2 albums back to back exemplified this point. 1/ remastered version of Crime of the Century by Supertramp.... absolutely in heaven, the piano on the title track was just ethereal in nature and i could find no fault with any song on the album or its replay. 2/ Pollinator by Blondie....oh good lord, WHOEVER mixed this new album should have been taken out and shot! What I would describe as disco bass, overblown boom, boom, boom blah! And as for the higher registers? I thought the tweeters had blown! cymbals were just all tizzy and splashy, truly awful, could only manage a coupel of tracks before had to turn that off. Quality electronics and quality source paired with Wilsons and you should be in heaven. Anything less and they will ruthlessly annihilate your music! |
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Kosst_amojan - I couldn’t agree more. The room is one of the biggest challenges in audio. It’s hard enough assembling a system that plays well together. But getting the placement and room acoustics right is like naked blindfolded voodoo. And not in the good way I know you all first pictured. Experimentation and research definitely pay dividends! |
@clearthink = @bo1972 = Bobby Kingma Note how Clearthink chimes in on this thread and stated: Quote: With your permission, if I may, please kindly allow me to elucidate these matters regarding Bo, who is a visionary and trailblazer in the world of hi-fi. How, you may ask, do I have anything to contribute to this detailed discussion? I am a client of Bo. By client I mean that I am not a customer. It is much the same as when you visit a physician or a lawyer. The wise man does not instruct the professional how to treat his ills! He entrusts the outcome with the professional of his choosing. Otherwise a man could treat or represent himself. Music is all about emotion. When I felt that my music reproduction system and associated components and installation was failing to deliver proper emotion to me I decided to seek Bo for consultation. Bo was very generous with his time! He showed me how Tru-Fi works. It can be demonstrated to every listener that Tru-Fi works by applying properties to the reproduction of music. By proper application of these properties, which sometimes requires adjustments to within .5 mm, Tru-Fi can be achieved and all will agree that this is how hi-fi should be sold. Not all components are capable of Tru-Fi. Because Bo has a photographic memory as applied to sound reproduction, Bo can identify those components that deliver 3D sound! Most components deliver only 1D or 2D sound! This Bo can demonstrate. Bo can evaluate your 1D or 2D music reproduction system and prescribe a solution using components that are 3D and can deliver Tru-Fi. These are improvements all can hear because music is about emotion and all can feel the emotion in reproduced music once Bo has demonstrated Tru-Fi to you. He can do this in a shootout as he has done many times and proven to all who listen. Throughout the course of Human History visionaries and trailblazers have been laughed at, minimalized, derided, ridiculed and chided. Bo knows this! He is being generous by contributing here to share his knowledge about Tru-Fi and the way it can be applied using properties to music reproduction systems and installations. He has demonstrated to many manufacturers, distributors and designers of components used in music reproduction systems the ways of Tru-Fi and properties and I suspect that you will see some major manufacturers adopt Tru-Fi methods, techniques, standards and practices as time moves forward. This is because all who hear Tru-Fi exclaim for the first time they are hearing the emotion in music, which is what music is all about. Those of you here who are dubious about Bo have never heard Tru-Fi and have not heard 3D sound in their music reproduction systems. Once you have heard Tru-Fi, you will realize that all other approaches to the design, assembly, fabrication, installation and specifying of music reproduction systems is flawed. Only Tru-Fi can deliver the emotion in music, which is what music is all about. There is no point to music reproduction systems if there is no emotion. I hope Bo will forgive me speaking on his behalf here. Unquote It is time for Bobby to create another user account to be a shill for TruFi as his Clearthink account has been revealed to be him!!!! |
I will ask once more...What is the connection between the "emotional" reproduction of music, and that reproduction being perceived as "3D". I would submit that timing, timbre and dynamics have everything to do with the communication of emotions in music, and the perception of space is a distant fourth. |
I just happened to run across this thread on December 31st, 2017. I spent almost an hour reading most of the comments, especially those from the Holy One of Bo. I don’t know why I read most of the 70 posts from Bo1972 as he kept saying the same thing over and over and over and over again... and over. There was a bunch of promises of things that would happen in 2017, such as: “You have no idea what we created and what we do. Most things we will never post or share. I can garantee you that it will change the world in audio in 2017.” “2017 will be the year we share it with manufacturers and customers. We have done it with many people all ready. But now we will make it public as well. “ “We will invite many people in 2017. Everyone is welcome in our world. We will never disclude any person. We create it to make other people want to buy more audio. “ “The difference where we are compared to the rest is galaxies away. 2017 will be the year we will share it, soon you will hear from it as I told before.” Some statistics of his posts: The word “garantee” was misspelled 14 times. “True-Fi” was written 59 times. The word “proof” was found 25 times in his post. In search of his proofs, “garantees”, and to check his statements about 2017, I did some Google searches. A Google search of "Statement Audio Pro-measurement” returned 4 results. Perhaps Google stopped working today, and Tru-Fi is taking over?!? "Stealth Low Frequency" returned 10 results, most of which were related to missile defense and guns. But again, let’s not forget that Tru-Fi might be taking over the Internet, and Google might not be so effective while transitioning their data to Bo. He said: “We own Sony Professional video stuff, so we will make videos soon.” in one of his posts. Good to know he owns at least one decent piece of audio-video equipment. He also said: “In 2017 we will start a videoblog as well.”. I am still looking for those. Please point me to them if you see them. Not that I want to watch them, just curious if they exist. So after I read all that crap (btw I was interested in the topic of this post but the thread was hijacked a long time ago), I decided to check what Bo1972 is posting these days. I found one of his latest topics here - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-audioquest-hurricane-part-1 In one of his posts there he said: "When I look for example at Facebook for Highend For Passionates. I can see many faults at almost each single photo...." "When I see the pictures of loudspeakers of 200.000 dollar and the way they place them, it is the proof that it is done at the level of a child." The reminded me of something I just read here: Plutos: “I got a good laugh when I saw your system set up so "proffesionally". All nicely lined up against the wall.“ bo1972: “@plutos ........hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha lol :) You life in the past and we live in the future. When you audition S.A.P. you will understand that it does not makes sense anymore where they stand. “ That's enough for me. Wasted enough time. |
Someone else said: "The more popular the brand, the more fans and the more detractors." I couldn't agree more. I do "feel your pain" as I own a McIntosh preamp and power amp, match up very well with my other equipment. There are probably more "McIntosh haters" out there, compared with "Wilson haters". I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla...... |
