I've always wondered why there are so many people out there, that more than any other speaker manufacturer, really hate the Wilson line. I own Maxx 2's and also a pair of Watt Puppys. They are IMHO quite wonderful.
I looked at the stereophile article and I am entirely correct. The folded ribbon AMT style tweeter is indeed too large for the high frequencies it is producing. Although not an Appolito design for this particular model, MA have used this style frequently.
In short, none of what you have said or alluded too (including insults of other people's systems/approach, or their manliness and your exclusivity to truth) indicate anything other than you are a narrow minded shrill for MA.
Bo, ......your head is 2 dimensional lol :) Do you seriously think that some crappy messed up network player can compete with
Marantz SA-1? I have owned the Olive 06HD as I have loads of other digital. Olive is sonically light years from SA-1. And yes I have also done a lot of shootouts from Accuphase to Zanden. As for Pass X150 I sold it over 10 years ago. For it´s used price it is great amp. Much better than some alephs.
Much earlier I asked a question about what gear you use/recommend? Your response, best that I could discern as it was so convoluted, was that you considered that information exclusive and proprietary. Now we discover, thanks to detective work by ct0517, that your system is comprised of excellent gear, yet gear that is available to mere mortals.
Now that that mystery is unraveled, please answer the last question that I asked:
How does S.A.P. eliminate early reflections (such as those from your uncovered wood flooring) that smear time coherence?
Its true that ribbon tweeters and folded ribbon tweeters are two different though related things.
That’s about as much as I know about it other than that folded ribbon tweeters tend to be more directional than domes and I’ve heard really good sound come from both set up well.
Its also true that I think Bo needs some human interaction training to go along with his hifi expertise. If I were his manager I’d stick him back behind that curtain with a gag in his mouth.
read the review which I put here before. The truth is difficult for some people to handle. They can use words to attack me. Then I will attack you based on facts. Be a man and just focus on the remarks.
Plutos the Pass labs X150 is one of the weakest amps Pass Labs ever created. The 150.5 had the same kind of limitations. I know them all.
Your Marantz Sa-1 is a 2 dimensional source. This means that the stage it build is not able to create over 1 metre of stage depth. It even creates less than 1 metre of stage depth. We tested it and we could proof to the client who owned it that it limited his 3D stage.
He sold it and bought an Olive 06HD. His stage became a lot deeper and wider.
Again this proves that most people buy 2 dimensional products.
You life in the past and we live in the future. When you audition S.A.P. you will understand that it does not makes sense anymore where they stand.
Many people with highend sets were amazed that we could create a level they never experienced before. The were the most impressed that even the loudspeaker is on the side and the other is a little more free does not make a difference.
S.A.P. adapts the speakers. It knows were it stsands in the room. With a professional microphone the volume of the left and right speaker is exactley the same. Even when the stand differently placed.
Another stunning thing is Stealth low freq. This creates a new reference in low freq. Many people called it the best low freq. they ever auditioned.
Because it puts the subwoofer in phase with the loudspeakers. Beside this the system knows exactley were it stand in the room.
The energy is exactley were it is on the recording. Never before you hear the energy of instruments fully free in space just like in real. This is not possible with old fashion audio without S.A.P.
In 3 years of time we auditioned only one system who showed all the parts of Tru-Fi. It had the same kind of structure we use but without Statement Audio Pro-measurement.
Tru-Fi is a totally different way of creating an audio system. Like Statement Audio Pro-measurement is a new approach to disclude the acoustic limitations.
Beside the acoustic limitations, creates S.A.P. much more details which are gone with any other highend pre amp.
In a comparison with an Audio Research Ref -5SE the differences could not be bigger.
We used the same Pass Labs Poweramp, AQ Redwood, 2 pairs of AQ Wel Signature xlr and Purist Audio Limited Edition luminist powercables.
The 5509 with S.A.P. had a much deeper and weider stage. The Ref 5Se created 0.5m of stage depth. The 5509 eith SAP can create 5-6metrres of stage depth with the same recording.
The 5509 could reveal details like the articulation of vloices which were fully gone with The AudioReseach.
Even in layers and emotion the 5509 outperformed the 5SE with ease.
The low freq went a lot deeper and had more layers compared to the 5SE.
The individual focus of instruments and voiced was so much shaper and precise than the 5SE. Soon a person with an Absolore pre amp of 30.000 dollar will come to my house. I will ask him if he is prepared for a shootout.
We have proven to many tube owners that our sound shows much more layers and creates more emotion thanb their tube pre amp and poweramp.
We want to use more shootouts in audio. We will make profesional videos of it.
Audiogon is a lot of fun for me. I need to laugh all the time when I read the reactions
Yes for me too. I got a good laugh when I saw your system set up so "proffesionally". All nicely lined up against the wall. Tru-Fu is probably hiding behind the curtains?
You just keep showing your ignorance when you criticize my gear. Just as you look ignorant dismissing Wilson. Take a good look at those tweeters on your favorite spurious artifact producing speakers - too tall for the job - technically inadequate for the job. You like spurious artifacts that give you your 3D circus performance. No doubt it is impressive. No doubt many audiophiles crave this kind of show. Others have different needs like accuracy, correct timbre, balance and ability to play at realistic sound levels without ultra low levels of distortion. Sorry but 3D SFX is not what I am looking for in audio.
Bo being empowered to hijack another thread for free advertising.....
Such innovation should easily support paying for publicity but granted free is more cost effective.
I would not rank Bo’s campaign as most self defeating I’ve seen but its up there. At least in these parts. I’m sure there are some out there with a budget seeking a guru who might buy into it.
In Bo’s defense, at least he puts it all out there with little obfuscation. His goals are clear if not so much his unique innovative approach so good job there.
Audiogon is a lot of fun for me. I need to laugh all the time when I read the reactions.
Lol:)
When I take a look at most systems overhere at Audiogon it proves that systems are chosen by trial and error.
We will demo and proof that with Tru-Fi you always will create a superior level. We have proven this to many people already. The difference is we will share it now with every one.
We want as many people possible to bring them to a new level in experience their music. Tru-Fi brings audio much more close to how music sounds in real. And it proofs that the level of emotion and exitement is superior.
I met many people who invested a lot of money on acoustical treatment. This is inferior to the results of S.A.P. It is even a big laugh how big the difference is in result.
Our clients react the same way when they visit other shops and shows. They are all already in the new world of audio This world we will share soon.
We created Statement Audio Pro-measurement. It brings stereo and surround to a new superior level. This is again not based on personal taste, but again on facts.
If you would have read better you would have known that we have not the acoustic limitations most people have. That is why I said: ( I will repeat it again for those who forget) when we visit new clients, shows, distributers and other shops we always go back in time.
In their world the acoustics limits them a lot. I have done a lot of research in over 6 years of time in the acoustics. That is why we will share Statement Audio Pro-measurement with the world this year so many will get a superior sound quality they never experienced.
It is not possible to reach this level with old fashion audio without S.A.P.
It outperforms pre amps in all 8 parts of Tru-Fi. It looks like it is not possible for people to understand what it means when you do research all the time in sound&vision. Because you never read and saw people who work like this.
I did take a look at your systems. Mann this is the work of an amature. Most of the brands and products you use are by far not the best in their price range. We are talking about 2-dimensional standard audio.
If I would sell it to clients, it would be time to quite directly.
First you need to listen to it before you judge. The products you bought many of them are even rather poor.
We test and listen to as many products possible to find the best of it’s class.
The one who creates the best sound&vision in each price range understands it the best way. This is how sound&vision needs to be exposed. This is how we work. And all people can compare it with all other products.
Looks like a very nice system Bo, comparable to many seen here on the Virtual Systems pages. Don't see much (anything?) in the way room of acoustical treatment.
The
beryllium tweeter of the Focal speakers also showed harshness at many different shows and demos we auditoned. The AMT tweeter laughs about these limitations :)
With the Sonus Faber Lilium we had the same experience. When we played Diana Krall we all could hear ssssss all the time. The people who gave the demo said; this is based on the fact that she is very close to the mic and it is based on the recording.
Lol, these recordings never showed any kind of harshness and sss sounds to all systems we sold.
I will do my best to create a shootout with these speakers against the Platinum series. This is how audio should ne used. We like things to be clear and honest :)
At this moment people are working on our new website.
Most things we do we will never show. The products have a much lower value than how they are used. At the end it is all about detail and how you use it.
You cannot see the Statement Audio Pro-measurment, adapting electricity, magnetism, high frequency noise, smog, modifications and many tweeks we use inside the amps, sources, cables and many other places.
When you create and sell a sound, it is a totally different approach than the silly extreme ineffective way of trial and error.
Even when you would buy the same stuff I own, I does not make sense and it will never work.
I had a lot of contact with Desmond Harrington(president) of Pass Labs. I was talking also about our Statement Audio Pro measurement. In 2015 he send me an email that he was thinking about buying a 5509 as well.
I had to laugh and I wrote, without my brains and insight the 5509 is fully useless. He cannot think and work in patterns/properties like I do. This is needed to understand it.
All people in audio focus on products and brands. Sound does not work like that, this way it always will be very ineffective. You never can reach the full potential of each part in your set. This is why money will never solve this problem.
Most sets are incomplete and beside this they miss properties you need for a higher level in emotion and realism.
At the end it is all about what you can hear. We have proven many times that our way of Tru-Fi with each single Monitor Audio loudspeaker sounds superior to the same speaker at any other shop. This is based on the fact they we can use the full potential or all properties the speakers own. All shops connect some stuff based on trial and error, they are only able to reach between 10-30% of the quality. And again we have proven this many times.
Audio is all about sound and what you can hear. This will be always less important than the technique they use. Technique does not garantee you a better quality.
In magazines and on websites you often read the information about the technique. And only a few lines about how it sounds. This shows again how limited these people are.
Of course the technique Monitor Audio uses is the reason why it creates the level what is possible. But it still does not garantee you anything. This counts for other brands as well.
An AMT tweeter is not a ribbontweeter. It is a totally different technique. Again 3-dimensional sound has nothing to do with a ribbontweeter.
We also have clients who use speakers with a dome-tweeter who also own a 3-dimensional stage now. It is based on properties and working very accurate. 3-dimensional sound is not new, there are different brands and products who can build a 3 dimensional stage as well.
It is a 100% fact that people prefer a 3 dimensional stage. The same as that people prefer a sound with more diversity. This has nothing to do with personal taste. But like I said again: it is based on our emotion.
Some people have difficulties to read, so I will repeat it for those. 3-dimensional sound is only 1 part of Tru-Fi. All the different 8 parts are important and influences our emotion.
It was a 100% fact that the AMT tweeter outperformed the tweeter of the Wilson Sasha. Again it has nothing to do with personal taste.
The AMT tweeter vs the outdated dome tweeter of the Sasha showed:
- The AMT could reveal more details - could reveal diversity in height of instruments and voices. With the Wilson they showd the same level in height. - with different recordings the Sasha showed harshness ( ssssss sound) in the high freq. The Pl-200 II showed with all these recordings no any kind of harshness. - The low frequencies were so much faster and showed more layers compared to the Sasha. - The Pl-200 II could create a wider and deeper stage. - The sound of the Pl-200 II was more natural and more open - The individual focus of instruments and voices was so much sharper with the Pl-200 II. - The Pl200 II showed much more diversity in sound.
We want more shootouts of audio, and no more bullshit paid stories. Audio is all about facts and shootout.
All our clients with more expensive audio have a Statement Audio Pro measurement. The difficulties most of you suffer, are gone for us already for many years. The resolution in audio shops and at shows is inferior compared to our resolution.
Advantages AMT against a dome-tweeter are: bigger power handling, significantly less distortion, bigger stage, more natural sound, better dynamics, a better timing and a more flat impedance.
************************* to Crazyeddy’s thread subject.
Personally. I have known two Wilson speaker owners over the years, of which I actually heard their systems. This was a long time ago. Both were using their shared living rooms and were married. The first guy had speakers on castors and was anal about room positioning. He would roll them out to the tape markings on the floor when listening and push them back to the front wall when not in use. The second fellow, he had them arranged along the front wall, very similar to the system shown in Bo1972’s url link above. Both could be described as audiophiles and music lovers. Different expectations.
Bo has simply discovered the weird directivity effects of ribbons. Nothing new about that. A ribbon tweeter is much too tall for the frequencies it is transmitting. This means you get weird flanger comb filter type effects - some frequencies totally cancel out while others reinforce. This is the 3D he has discovered. It is laughable really because this is an artifact. It isnt high fidelity at all. It really messes with the sound and your perception of where it is coming from as a function of frequency. Some frequencies will come from ceiling and some from only side walls and others from the speakers. Basically a total mess if you are a purist and seek high fidelity. But great if you like weird SFX and point sources to become larger than they should.
You also get weird artifacts with an Appolito design. He may have discovered this also. Nothing he has discovered has not been known for already 30 years. However he thinks he is on to something new because most speaker companies shun these type designs that give inconsistent 3D artifacts in favor of accuracy and high fidelity.
It has nothing to do with a personal taste. People in audio think and believe the best way of creating an audio system is based on personal preference.
Really, this whole hobby is about preference, isn’t it? Yes, there are objective measurements and observations that we can make. But even the best audio system is just an imitation of the real thing, so some kinds of trade-offs have to be made along the way.
The preferences never end ... from choosing formats to taste in music, from deciding what’s reasonable to spend to deciding how much time we’re willing to commit to maintenance and tweaking. The notion that any one person can decide what’s best for me or you - especially in an internet forum with people we can’t possibly know - is just beyond silly.
Frankly, no matter the context: I don’t trust self-proclaimed gurus. That’s rarely where knowledge is found, ime. Some of the most knowledgeable people here are the most patient and polite.
Bo, it's not like you invented fire. Those of us who are old enough to have been around high end audio for 40+ years have been aware of 3 dimensionality in the sound stage for ages. You just now discovered it. Good for you. But it is pretty delusional of you to think you have discovered a secret and you somehow possess knowledge that is unique. Congratulations on your discovery. Most of us have known it all along; we just didn't feel the need to beat others over the head with it.
Bo1972 "I will never share this for free. I spend a lot of time and it gave me a huge leap against all my competitors. Do your own research and I wish you goodluck"
Bo, it is obvious you do not think it is improper on any level to fill pages and pages with what boils down to your advertising (call it self promotion or whatever). What makes it really ridiculous is that you don't even seem to have anything to sell in the U.S.
You should be required to put a dealer disclaimer or whatever type of sales entity you are on each of your mini novels. I would not want to talk negatively towards you but you have not had any problems directly and rudely bashing purchases by A'gon member.
It has nothing to do with a personal taste. People in audio think and believe the best way of creating an audio system is based on personal preference.
Until januari 2016 I believed this as well. But a client convinced me that personal taste does not make sense. It took many conversations before I understood and I agreed with him.
I thought for a long time the same way. But research (People have no idea how addicted I am in music and sound. Almost each day I create new things in my head to improve it. This is also like an addiction. So I test new things)
We all agree that emotion is what we want to experience during listening to our beloved music. People who use tubes think and believe that with tubes they create a more musical and emotional sound.
I have proven to people who own highend tube amps and pre amps that my sound had more layers and a higher level of emotion. A tube colours the sound in the whole freq. range.
The emotion is inside the music and not in an audio system. So you need to understand how you can reveal all the information of a recording. A tube will not give you more information. It will create a pleasant sound. But diversity is sound is a different thing. This is the key to experience realism and emotion during listening to music.
At this moment of writing diversity in sound is the biggest problem and limitation in audio in general. Almost all streamers/networkplayers are not able to create diversity in sound. This is the main reason why cd-players are stil being sold.
In amps we see and hear the same kind of limitations. People who create new products are often not able to understand how instruments and voices sounds in real. And how they are projected and how big they are in proportion.
It took me many years to be able to hear the DNA of each single part of an audio system. In 1998 I thought that if I want to understand sound I need to separate all the properties it owns. This is what I inproved during time. Doing thousands of test is easy when you are addicted to it. It has become my second nature. It does not cost a lot of energy.
In 2016 I have done a lot of reseach on parts what influences audio systems negative.
- the acoustics, we want to share Statement Audio Pro-measurement with manufacturers this year. This way many people can go to a much higher level in sound than what is possible at this moment.
- smog, people have no idea how huge and negative this is on a system. I can limit this for a big part.
- magnetism also has a huge negative influence on the sound. It occurs in cables, amps, sources, speakers and even in conditioners. I can limit this also for a big part.
- High frequent noise, also had a big negative influence on the sound. Again with different tools I can limit this as well.
- In 2015 and 2016 we did a lot of research in electricity. Here we also made big steps.
I will never share this for free. I spend a lot of time and it gave me a huge leap against all my competitors. Do your own research and I wish you goodluck.
We also use different lasers and digital level devices. I learned to use them at different ways. I will never share this.
With vision we work the same way. Here we also can outperform any company in sound&vision.
What I said before I love competition. I always want to win and create a superior quality compared to the best there is. Only the best is what counts, 2nd best is for losers. I understand that it sounds hard to others.
I do everything for my clienst to give them the best quality possible. It always needs to be superior to all competitors.
It seems evident to me that Clearthink's excellent command of the English language indicates that he is not Bo. However, regarding Clearthink's statement that:
He is being generous by contributing here to share his knowledge about
Tru-Fi and the way it can be applied using properties to music
reproduction systems and installations.
... as far as I can recall, having read many of Bo's posts, he has never provided definitions of Tru-Fi or what he refers to as "properties" that are specific enough to be of any practical usefulness.
Wow...have only loosely followed Bo's confused ramblings in the past and with mild amusement. Also have occasionally seen some accuse others in these pages of folks posting under false user ID's...can't recollect ever feeling like they might have been anything more than 'witch hunts' (a we-accuse-you-of-that because-we-can, personal feud kind of thing)...but This... IMO, I'm afraid Clearthink is revealing himself to be, in fact, Bo. Dunno if Bo has ever done anything like this before, and it doesn't matter here really, since the evidence here in my opinion is apparent, blatant I might say for anyone who has eyes to see it (and yes, I know that's just my opinion). Normally I don't resort to accusing people of things I know I can't "prove", but this IS a public forum and I think Bo, for me, has just crossed a line...used to think of him as deranged but harmless - not anymore. I now believe he's revealing himself to be a liar, someone of questionable ethics and someone that is not to be trusted.
I think this is the kind of thing the community should not necessarily turn a blind eye toward. Wherever suspicion is evident it should at least be pointed out and recognized and not willingly hidden under the the guise of the fact (and it indeed is a fact at the moment) that this accusation cannot be directly proven...otherwise we are not policing ourselves, despite Bo's implied right (on our soil) to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. But, rightly or wrongly (maybe time will tell) I'm just going on record here and saying that I think that it appears that Bo is being intentionally deceitful here. Like I say, it may not be something that I can prove, but that does not mean that this event, topic or my opinion should not be discussed and I'm willing to do so. This has nothing IMO to do with audio. I know this threatens to hijack the thread for which I apologize in advance, but this may be something of an exceptional circumstance.
clearthink,
I wonder if some of us become Bo`s client`s, do we all start to think and write
exactly same way as Bo?
He is being generous by contributing here to
share his knowledge about Tru-Fi and the way it can be applied using properties
to music reproduction systems and installations.
Sadly we have not heard a word about how he
measures
and applies this magical Tru-Fu spell...
The funny thing is many people on Audiogon are like bo, "opinionated ". No everyone doesn't write like bo or talk about 2d vs 3d, but many, many people are just as passionate about their preferences.
"He has demonstrated to many manufacturers, distributors and designers of components..."
Now we are at the crux of the matter.
Where are the testimonials, writings or documentation of thoughts and impressions from these people? Who are they? So far it has been only the evasive ramblings of one whom is the source of these claims.
Interestingly, the style and prose of your writing, clearthink, is very similar to Bo's.
bo1972YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IT ...
Yes we don´t understand what this mythical and indeterminate "
Tru-Fi
" actually is so please explain us what rituals you do that all your systems sound so much better than all others?
Bo...I repeat from a previous post, is an audio zealot. He has found his flavor of audio truth and simply cannot accept that others have taken a different pathway to their audio truth. As Plutos mentioned in his post, "there is some truth to Bo's mantra". Of course the dimensionality of a system is a quality most of us can appreciate. But so to is timbre, pace, soundstage and numerous other characteristics we use to identify when listening to and comparing equipment. Obviously, this dimensionality is a characteristic that resonates with Bo's emotions. Good for him. Just don't be surprised and frustrated that it just might not resonate with everyone the same as it does with you. These are mutually exclusive situations. If I am engaged and drawn into a musical performance for reasons other than dimensionality who are you Bo to tell me that my experience is invalid? Just, lower yourself a little bit from your high horse.
It has nothing to do with Monitor Audio or any brand. Tru-Fi is based on properties. There are more brands who own the right properties we need and want.
Tru-Fi is combining properties togheter. The brand or products are of minor importance than the sound we create. You all think in products and brands. We only think and focus on properties.
I will repeat it again: Most of my clients said: when I would have listened to Monitor Audio in audio shops I think I would not have bought it. But the way you create it, it is a sound without any competition.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........oh, I'm sorry, I must have dosed off there for a second. Please bo, could you run that scintillating theory of Tru-Fi by me again???!!!
Now we have strong recommendations from Bo (and many others) of MA Platinum speakers. Also the Lumin S1 modded by Bo.
Clearly, Bo, you feel strongly that you have a secret recipe/method for assembling superior sounding systems that you also feel to be proprietary. Perhaps you do. Audiophiles are a skeptical lot (understatement) and don’t typically trust others to spend their money.
Playing "I’ve got a secret" is not very helpful to the audio world. Are you willing to seek out and participate in some hi-end shows such that your setups and their sound quality can be shared with others in a credible way?
Until you do that, your mini novels are not going to promote more interest than they already have. The harder you try to sell, the less others will perceive your credibility or value your input.
It has nothing to do with Monitor Audio or any brand. Tru-Fi is based on properties. There are more brands who own the right properties we need and want.
Tru-Fi is combining properties togheter. The brand or products are of minor importance than the sound we create. You all think in products and brands. We only think and focus on properties.
I will repeat it again: Most of my clients said: when I would have listened to Monitor Audio in audio shops I think I would not have bought it. But the way you create it, it is a sound without any competition.
We understand that people have to hear it. We have a maketing specialist who is looking for options to demo it in the US. The webside first will be in my language. Some time later also in english. It will be a total new approach on both sound&vision. We own Sony Professional video stuff, so we will make videos soon.
The human emotion is something what we all own. That is why I focussed on the human emotion. You need to understand how our emotion works and when it occurs.
A client of mine was the first who said: tatse does not exist. I thought he was insane He said; you have proven it to me.
He is the person who owned the Sasha and he is the one who invented the word Tru-Fi. I first called it: Total Sound.
He owned many highend systems. He said: My new system owns a superior level in emotion, details and realism. I could never have created this level with trial and error what I did for a long time.
We can proof (we have proven it to many many people) that we can make each audio system more complete. All the reactions are the same. We will put all the reviews of clients on our new website soon.
They all experience a much higher level of emotion. They all use their system much more often. They all play longer at the same time.
When an audio system can reveal more details and emotion it becomes addictive.
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