I have an older CD player( Cary CDP1) . It sounds good ,but would a new or used Dac in the line improve the sound? Looking at Dacs in the $600 - $1200 range. I know the other equipment would also matter in the outcome, but as a general question......do you think this would be an upgrade to the sound? Or should i go another route?
Are you suggesting to reduce your Cary Audio player with its Class A analog section to a CD transport? If all is working well, that's a testament to build quality and be glad you own it.
That said, why not go ahead and try a new DAC or two? Just remember you are limited to digital outputs of Toslink or Coax. To avoid clocking issues look for asynchronous mode DACs, but only the newer (and pricier) ones will offer this for a Coax input. Then, unless you also add a high resolution source, you will be underutilizing your new expensive DAC with only 16/44.
Ripping your CDs to a hard drive on a music server and adding hi- res streaming apps is another option, to be that separate audio source.
Another good path might be to sell your Cary and buy one of the newer CD players that offer the latest technology, as well as integrated USB and ethernet streaming options.
I have the Cary CDP1 , Acoustat amp Trans nova Twin 200, Acoustat pre Trans Nova, and an older Pioneer TT. Being rather new to the Acoustats , i guess i'm wondering what would be a good fit to bring out the best sound possible with a digital source.
I just came out the other end of what you're asking. I used players as transports, the best was the Pioneer PD65, but it was quite old and the only output was toslink, a low resolution data transfer medium. When it died I replaced it with a Marantz HD CD-1 to use as a transport, but, have as a back up player. It too died. Ultimately a CD players transport will not live up to even a relatively inexpensive Audiolab CDT 6000, which I bought and am shocked at how good it is even though the MSRP is "ONLY" $600 (Audio Advisor). There's a GREAT written review on line where he used very inexpensive dacs and worked his way up to ~ $2500 dacs. Each upgrade was readily heard, SO, you could get it, and start with a dac you can afford and work your way up
i guess i'm wondering what would be a good fit to bring out the best sound possible with a digital source.
Holy crap! You’ve now been asked twice what would represent “improvements” to you. Better soundstage, more detail, etc. What are u looking for??? Without this info this post is near useless and will just give u individual opinions that may or may not coincide with yours. If you can’t elucidate what specifically you’re looking to improve, this post is near useless.
2. when you think about improvements in sound as played by your system, what are the first few elements that come to mind? (i wish i had deeper, more well defined bass... or a lot of the time many cd's sound harsh and gritty... i feel like all the voices and instruments are on top of each other, in one big mish-mash... and so on...)
jjss49 ... I'm looking to have the cd's sound less harsh and piercing. Maybe a little more warmth. The soundstage is fine. Bass is lacking , but that needs to be fixed with some subs( next hurdle).Speakers are electrostatic.
iirc gary your cary cd-1 player is solid state output stage with ad pcm1792 chipset, very common in cdp’s in that time frame, it was known to be a little brash and thin sounding feeding a typical ss output stage, not surprised with your setup with electrostats the digital sizzle will play through
if you want to stick to your cdp for now, just use its digital out, i would suggest (in order of preference) an mhdt r2r tube buffered dac (orchid havana or atlantis), lesser choices being a musical paradise tube unit, or a border patrol dac - all in your stated price range... with these the sound will have more body and richness, less sibilance/harshness, sound more analog if you will
these dacs come up used but re-sell quickly (as many are looking for a similar solution to typical modest budget digital playback ills) or you can just buy new, still within your budget....
with pure electrostat speakers, yes you'll likely need a separate solution for better bass impact, chances are that aspect won’t be solved with a dac
also, the streaming option pointed out by another poster earlier is also worth serious consideration if you are willing to head in that direction... i would!
I recently tried some pucks because my sim has built in cones (older model 5.3)...i have been doing the diy speaker cables and a set i was just not quite happy with...well i had 5.3 amp years back which the previous owner sent along little pucks and told me there not much to look at but they work...6 years later i tried them and wow...wow everything dialed in...bigger sound stage less "distorted sound’ no more slightly bloated bass,...was like cleaned window.Decoupled from top shelve/less vibration...Just a thought rather than new dac.I was leaning that way too...not anymore.
Thanks jjss49 for the suggestions. I believe you backed up what i thought may be the solutions. I leaning toward getting the Dac first, then the subs, then consider moving into world of streaming next. The journey continues.
Having over 40 years in audio and owning a Audio store for 10 years in Europe I have a ton of experience in every dept
thedac is probably the most important part ,why because every aspect of the music starts there , it’s quality makes or breaks the music for you can’t make up the signal once lost , then loudspeakers , Thst being said even quality cables ,thunk weak links in the audio chain ,there is no shortcuts , $5k-$6k likeDenafrips terminator 2holo springs May dac 2 perfect examples of great digital at a fair price
that being said even $1- $2k like Denafrips less expensive R2R dacs which I like
Bricasti m3 which I bough5 earlier last year use R2R + streamer for $6 k
buy the best you can afford for digital ,and Ethernet cable ,and digital usb or I2S cable counts ,even the Ethernet hub such as uptone audio Etherregen has much good feedback , do a lot of research .
I have the Audiolab CDT6000 cd transport and an MHDT Orchid DAC (tube) connected via a high quality Toslink Wireworld Super Nova 7 feeding into my Apogee Acoustics Duetta II Signatures full range ribbons speakers. The setup sounds incredible. I highly recommend the combo. The Orchid is $1,200 (Linear Tube Audio) and the Audiolab CDT6000 is $600 (as mentioned above). Feel the music!
Cary makes good equipment but the progress in DACs since 2005ish has been enormous. It has Burr-Brown DACs.. I worked at Burr Brown for almost 20 years. Yes, an upgraded DAC can improve the sound. I would recommend a Schiit Gungnir ~$1.2K… or if you really are looking to improve your system over time, invest in a Schiit Yggdrasil… at ~$2.1K these both perform at a much higher level. Should really improve the sound.
You can see my systems under my ID. I have pursued high end digital since the release of the CD (yuck)… and all the incremental improvements since. The DAC is a really critical part of the CD player… night and day since 2005.
I think you would have to spend considerably more on a DAC to hear any appreciable difference. However a streamer/DAC would get you into streaming via Qobuz, Tidal etc.
For 1100.00 you can't go wrong with Cambridge audio Cxnv2. The Wolfson dac chips sound very good and it works flawless as a streamer. I have one in my den running a Melody h6550 integrated. The roon also works perfect. Streamer, dac,preamp,roon. Then when you're ready for another upgrade send it to Modwright for the tube Truth Mod. Puts it on a whole different level.
I’ve used the following upgrades in my low-budget system for the last several months:
1. Audiolab 6000cdt transport
2. Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 200 DAC
3. Wyred4sound Remedy reclocker (purchased late last year)
Total price: @$1500.
A big improvement to my digital source (lots of 44.1/16 CDs, no streaming). CDs are now 96/24 playback. Improved soundstage with everything much more focused. Almost no harshness a lot of the time; when it occasionally happens, my uneducated guess is that it might be the quality of the masters that were used. Totally happy with the results.
Thank you guys for all the input. I guess now i'm trying to decide between a Dac with tubes or not. Not sure if the tube would give me a little less harshness. Or a R2R would give me the same results.
Lots of very well-informed advice here already. For what it's worth, I was skeptical about DACs; I've got a Marantz SA8005 SACD player that sounded just fine. Then I found a PS Audio UltraLink DAC at an estate sale, and picked it up for a song ($100). With my remote, I can switch back and forth between it and the Marantz. The difference is subtle but essential! The PS Audio is "warmer," more natural, just more involving; woodwinds sound like air through wood instead of electrons. Unfortunately, the PS Audio won't decode SACDs, so those still must be played through the Marantz. But for Red Book, I never prefer the Marantz. (BTW, Paul McGowan at PS Audio offered to give me full original purchase price—$2,000—for the UltraLink in trade for a newer DAC that will decode SACDs. Do any of you think that would be wise? I've read many statements here, including even in this thread, to the effect that newer DACs are much better than older ones, even for Red Book.)
Thank you guys for all the input. I guess now i’m trying to decide between a Dac with tubes or not. Not sure if the tube would give me a little less harshness. Or a R2R would give me the same results.
no - r2r dacs as a generality don’t reduce treble grit, unwanted energy, harshness, as there is a wide range of tonality/voicing among r2r dacs, largely based the quality of on their output stage and power supply design - for instance the soekris 14/15/25 series dacs have quite strong treble energy, whereas the lower denafrips dacs have good treble energy coupled with a warm midrange, and the audio gd r2r dacs have a more recessed treble
tubed output dacs, otoh generally add a tubey flavor and more reliably reduce treble energy, add midbass warmth and provide a somewhat more expansive image and soundstage - mhdt provides one with BOTH nos r2r topology and a tube buffered output stage, like higher cost audio mirror, lampi’s etc etc
It seems they go through upgrades every 6 months...just putzing with my player and decoupling showed me that the micro detail is worth the $ and adding a good dac🚀...im sure its a matter of time that i make the shift to dac...Would seem once bit its addicting from all i read.
Cables/ interconnects are other issues that i need to address. I am using Audioquest, i don't remember the exact ones ,but they are on the budget end of their cables.
I have a high-end CD player (Marantz SA-10), which I'm using without my DAC (Chord Qutest). I can't tell any significance difference in the sound when it's attached to the CD player. Maybe the sound from Marantz (even without built-in DAC) is so good you don't need a DAC.
People sometimes overlook the A in DAC. The analog side is just as important to the overall sound. While I'm not personally a fan of tubes, they are an example of how much the sound can be affected by the analog stage.
However, the digital side controls your digital flexibility wrt input connectivity, sample rates, bit depths, and the initials - DSD, MQA, etc. I'm guessing these things are less important to you now, but will come up when you tackle streaming.
I was curious about one thing. Your Cary decoded HDCD, a precursor to MQA. Do you have any HDCD CDs? If so, you may want to consider an HDCD-compatible DAC. I don't know if there are any still currently in production, so this would likely have to be used.
Went through parallel quest 27 yrs ago, I tried a Theta Prime, Pro Basic, with Magnavox CB650 as transport. Unsatisfied with the outcome, added a full set of Conrad Johnson Premier and VTL deluxe, both full pre/power combination. Tried 2 x Krell KSA250 and vertical bi-amp. Rotated loudspeaker of many flavors to come to the realization that room acoustic was the final frontier.
Read a lot of books and tested various passive room treatment. Still have various acoustic softwares until I came across a product name SigTech. Denis Doyle came and gone with a total of 4 units of SigTech, 1 for music room and 3 for theater, I’d learned that the combination of passive room treatment, speaker placement, and electronic room correction out weights ANY equipment upgrades in my life long pursue for good fidelity.
My humble suggestion is to look into room correction processors. Currently I’m using QEDX in three separate systems. The beauty of this is that it is a Dac, digital crossover (for subwoofer), and pre-amp. Three birds in one stone.
I just upgraded my DAC from a 2017 Meridian Explorer 2 (well-regarded desktop piece at the time)
Tried two different replacements. First was the new iFi Zen Dac Signature v2. Instantly audible improvement in all respects - five years of technological progress at desktop level. It could be an inexpensive “experiment” to see what passage of time has done to DACs. Probably need to check inputs to insure compatibility. I think easy to return if bought off Amazon - falls into the “why not try?” category of experiments
Second was Benchmark DAC3 HGC. Reaction: “oh, THAT’S what a DAC is supposed to sound like”. Not going to bother with all the adjectives. Kept it, love it. More than your budget but I think DAC2s may be going for the right price (most of my rig is 2nd hand). Again, check connection compatibility. No MQA, to the extent you are looking for that feature. Many, many choices at that price level, of course
I use Roon/Tidal, so can’t comment on CD transport stuff, or differences between digital outputs
Haven’t done much comparison on cabling - I use Kimber “Ascent” level (2nd level from bottom) for everything - good materials, well constructed - seems sufficient to me. Let’s me keep cabling to 10% of system cost. If it were me, I’d just buy I new CD player (incl DAC) at higher budget, rather than redo cabling
Let us know what you try along the way & what you decide to to!
Get a used or new MHDT Atlantis R2R dac, or Pagoda if in price range. Get adapters to use 6dj8 family tubes in the 5670 sockets, and get a nice 6922, ecc88, 7308, 6n23P, CCa tube for the output buffer. Your CDP will sound more amazing than you ever imagined. Buy a really good s/pdif cable, Enjoy.
I believe yes! DAC’s change the sound for better or worse. Cannot deny by introducing a new component that differences will appear. I like my Naim nDAC It’s loaded up with great sound and functionality. 4 optical, 2 RCA, 2 BNC and 2 USB A inputs. It can charge also your phone :-) Plays all formats even Apple losless. Massive power supply and I just ordered an XPS power supply for it. The current interior DAC Transformer has three stiff power rails. It will handle the front digital aspects. The XPS Power Supply brings 6 quiet stiff DC rails and provide6 stiff power rails of DC to the quiet analogzecrion. Auditioning Power cables soon and learning abot the "Burndy" cable.
There is an nDAC listed on Audiogon. Burr Brown 1740K DAC chips. Naim has purchased the remaining stock of the chips to be able to continue to service a repair their $20,000 CD555 and matching PS 555 DR Power supply for the future. The same Burr Brown chip-set in the CD555 are shared the nDAC making it a very formidable piece and still serviceable. The nDAC can be upgraded by using Naim power Cables and different and more powerful and expensive power supplies. Naim has researched and listened to customer feedback and guaged the performance atbeach level. The nDAC sound bad ass without the additional power supplies and many folks are satisfied with its performance especially when using Naim’s high quality DIN Cables.
Another suggestion for the purchase of a MHDT DAC. Excellent products that fit into your budget. Start with the use of your CD player as a transport. Then consider transport upgrade. Opportunity to experience benefits of each upgrade and consider streaming/server options. Dial in the majority of the frequency range then explore need for better bass.
I bought an Emotiva ERC 4 CD player. Its $600. It has an excellent DAC. I think you would be surprised with the quality of the sound you get with the built-in DAC. Why not try it. It comes with it for free. I upgraded to an Ares II and it sounds better, not night and day better, but noticeably better. I also noticed an improvement with Audioquest interconnects. My advice is get the ERC 4 and new speakers. If you don't like it add the Ares II.
I tried a few DACs recently and found the Denafrips ARES II a major improvement and a keeper. I went computer audio from my YBA Design CDP in 2016 and have auditioned a number of DACs. ARES is around $850 from Singapore. Lots of reviews on it.
The Ares II is a fantastic DAC but I quickly uograded to the Pontus !!. Superb. Both tacks seem to handle treble naturally and the bass is much tighter and better defined.
@garypick- one more thought - if it were me, I would not introduce tubes into the equation at the DAC itself. Seems more logical to implement tubes at the preamp or amp - in any event, let us know what you decide to do!
I have the best DAC I have owned, the Audio Research Reference 9 CDse. I had the $22K Berkley Alpha Reference 3 DAC in my system and the sound was really really really close… a tiny itsy bit different… the ARC was a touch warmer and the Berkeley a tiny more detailed (took hours of critical listening to be sure). This is an all ARC Reference system that is extremely detailed, and natural sounding to start with. See, my user ID.
On the other hand I had a very good high end Sim Moon DAC and it was thin and cool in comparison (this is a good DAC… we are talking about high performance stuff)… I said in comparison.
A high quality tubed component is a thing of beauty. But it is one component in the signal path. A very good one to have tubed… but so is a Preamp, and amp. To have a really natural and complementary system, all tubed gear is a good way to go. Not the only way.
I have a Cary 303, which I believe is older and more expensive than the cdp1. I use it as a transport for a bricasti m3. The m3 is a giant reduction in distortion from the 303 dac. Smoother and more detailed, a huge improvement. as a transport the 303 is better than my iMac through the Ethernet input.
In decades past I used transports with outboard DACs. Being retired for 5+ years living on SS, I streamlined my front end , making due using my Oppo 105 (with aftermarket power supply). The following worked out for me because I have an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5, a dac/pre. So, then I used an old Pioneer PD65 with level 3 Musical Concept mod as a transport (but it only had toslink out) for redbook, and used that until it died. I replaced it with a Marantz HD CD-1 player, used as a transport but with coax out, but like the PD65, the laser mechanism died, parts are no longer available, BUT, I could buy a laser assembly for $150 + shipping from Asia. However, I came across a fantastic review of the Audiolab CDT 6000, and found a slightly used one on AG at a price I could afford. The level of improved musical enjoyment jumped quantum levels, still surprising me months after the purchase. From my experience, unless you have an exotic ($$$$$) player, it likely has an average laser mechanism and circuit
Yes it will. I made tests with different CD players. A separate DAC, even a modest one, will give you a notable difference. If the DAC in your CD player is not really good and you choose a good DAC, the improvement will be very essential.
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