I wonder how many people have been told something by a buyer, that was no where near the truth....I hate to think how many times I have been told that I will send a Pay-Pal tomorrow, or I'll send you a check tonight....and never do anything of the kind.....I've been waiting for two weeks for a check from a guy in Michigan , I have sold a item 13 times on another web-site based on what a person has told me and never received the first penny..........Does anyone tell the truth anymore ?? I have one web-site that I do business on that has a 98% negative truth rate.....Isn't that a poor way to deal with people ?? What are your experience ??
Yes of course it is a poor way to deal with people. Jordan Peterson gives a very compelling talk about how the greatest most productive asset a nation, people or economy can have is trust. Look around the world, its plain to see the places where people have the highest degree of trust are also the places with the greatest standards of living.
Unfortunately the guiding principle of today is nihilism. Its essential to the advance of Marxism that the people have no real standard of right and wrong. Among other things. So look around, we are surrounded by nihilists. Until this changes things will continue to go downhill.
Sir: My loss is in the people that I like to do business with.....I'm getting where I start out not trusting from the start.......One web-site, only two percent are trustworthy......Pretty sad
You beat me to it. Jordan Peterson did not come up with the idea or notion that trust is essential to a properly functioning society. To attribute something so generically understood (it's deep in our DNA as a species) to a single person and then segue into a mini,, inane rant on Marx is a great way to end the week.
Nonoise you misread the post....Nobody ever said that J.P. is the man that "comes up" with the idea... Speaking about a fact is not coming up with the idea....
The rant on Marx is not mine, but J.P. studied marxism and nazism his brother ideology and comes to some conlusions about the 2 linking them together as negation of the free individual spirit of man...
Events on the world scene eclipse all our small ideas for the time to come anyway.....
It is more essential than ever that we together look for the points of convergence between us or some subject that unites us.... Audio perhaps or music.... :)
I know... But what you said was inspired by your misreading of the post of millercarbon....And truth being truth i feel that i must say something about it....I apologize because i respect you....
And even if i am not in the same political wagon than millercarbon i respect him also....And i like J.P. then i feel to have the right to speak my mind....
Trust is a universal concept. No one ideology owns it. Or species for that matter.
Trust is largely determined by perspective. Different perspectives is not the Same as nihilism. It just means people see things differently from their particular unique perspective in the world.
When all see the same thing from different perspectives then there is truth. When there is truth there is trust.
Regarding hifi transactions, there are always a few bad apples in the barrel. Verify then trust.
When you sell one item out of 20, that's a poor percentage.......I've always trusted people, and I still do to a large degree, and I hate to approach every transaction with a bad attitude,,,,,It seems a lot worst on different websites.....Almost like the requirements are different....But trust shouldn't be in the class of people who frequent one site or another.....I never have problems on Audiogon, but the procedure is different....
Unfortunately autospec, honesty has been going out of style for a while. I haven't had as many bad experiences as you, but enough to make me cautious. Don't let those people change you, though. You can put in your ad that the item will remain for sale until payment is received and the first person to make the payment will be the buyer, or something like that.
'Unfortunately, honesty has been going out of style for a while.'
Either it is or we're just far better informed now as to what everyone else is doing.
I personally believe that the further we move from the shock and trauma of WW2 the further some forget values such as honour, respect, and honesty.
@millercarbon,
'Look around the world, its plain to see the places where people have the highest degree of trust are also the places with the greatest standards of living.
Unfortunately the guiding principle of today is nihilism. Its essential to the advance of Marxism that the people have no real standard of right and wrong. Among other things. So look around, we are surrounded by nihilists. Until this changes things will continue to go downhill.'
Yes, the advance of Marxism in the West is shocking.
I grew up bemused by the way American life and culture seemed paranoid about communism. Almost every facet of its culture was steeped in suspicion over the evils of communism. Anti- red hysteria was everywhere and covert surveillance seemed the norm. But then something changed.
The collapse of the Soviet Union seems to have given political correctness the green light to start enforcing edicts from above. Throw in the rise of the internet and social media and you suddenly get a generation full of huge resentment towards the existing powers in charge. This is today's version of the Rock and Roll rebellion.
I can't help but notice the way life in the UK has changed over the past few decades. Yet no one talks about the way that we have become a nation now steeped in increasing security measures, cameras in every home, id cards and passes required everywhere, mistrust of all and sundry, all the way to the very top - government and royalty.
The way that the rest of the world used to see the UK is no longer applicable. It's a totally different place, I don't see any 'Bobbies on bicycles'.
Today's UK is a far greater culturally, ethnically, and religiously diverse landscape. It is no longer united and a deep feeling of mistrust pervades amongst all the various conflicting tribes.
How and why did our leaders let this chasm of division happen is now academic. We just have to adapt to the new 'now' - whatever that may be. Life can still be wonderful - same as it ever was.
Just use your eyes and read very carefully when buying online - especially used. I would say around a half of my used purchases on eBay have been less than satisfactory.
Mostly it's down to not what the seller has written, but what they've decided to leave out. I could leave negative feedback but then so might they, and I don't want to lose my 100% rating.
Do to others as you'd have them do to you. The ones that do not follow this simple rule, are the first to complain when they receive the same treatment they put out.
This is only about ,some sellers.Not about world politics. Democratic Socialist please ,this a a Site about Audiophiles, not Politics ,let's keep it that way thank you .Not there political views ,but there views on audio equipment. THE END.
isochronism Some people sell about three items a year , so they know nothing about this type of business.....How many items did you sell last year......I sold over fifty items and bought over a hundred items......I would have sold a lot more if it hadn't been for people with false visions.....
I had an experience 2 months ago with a man who turned out to be a middle class realtor in his 40’s (I looked him up). He agreed to buy an amp from me, lowballed me and I agreed to pay the shipping as well. He was supposed to pay the paypal, or else use another method. He sent me the money via paypal right away, minus the fee which was another $50.00. I didn’t touch the money, and immediately wrote him back saying that wasn’t the deal, either pay the fee, or go friends and family or send a check. Within seconds, he sent me a flurry of emails calling me a crook, a thief and a scamming little b---h. Civility and reason are just non-existent with some people. It was very upsetting.
There was an old cartoon they used to show back when they had driver's ed classes in high school. It showed the Disney character, Goofy, as his usual, amiable, goofy self until he got behind the wheel of his car and then he became a raging A-hole.
It's gotten to be like that with the advent of the internet. Feeling safe and unassailable, people tend to turn into a not so nice version of themselves. Some even go several steps further.
The problem is, after doing it for so long, they maintain that persona out into the real world, which explains a lot of things as of late.
autospec, I didn't mean anything against your OP, in case you read it that way, I fully agree with you. Years ago, before internet, I advertised and instrument for sale at FIRM price. A man called and we agreed the price was firm. He came over with his son (whom it was for). Afterward, I got the feeling that he was going to "teach" his son how to do business. They came over, and the man tried to bargain down $60. After his haggling, I reminded him the price was firm, and he's only bargaining $60 less. So his tactic was "yes, we're only talking $60 less, so you should take it". I then said that it was no longer for sale. Then he finally "gave in" at the full price. I reminded him "sorry, but it's no longer for sale, please leave". He even phoned me after they got home, to please sell it at full price. I didn't. I was congenial all along, but keep agreements.
The clincher of that story is, I told him "we both know this is a very good deal". Some people are not happy unless they can haggle down, no matter how good of an initial bargain.
’Some people are not happy unless they can haggle down, no matter how good of an initial bargain.’
Yes, but now we’re being advised by consumer groups to haggle down on all kinds of things ranging from vehicle insurance, energy provision to broadband contracts.
I personally don’t like it, and I don’t have the personality for it either, but some colleagues at work actually boast about how much they save this way.
Price fairly, and treat a buyer with respect. That is my motto. And, I haven't had a bad incident, yet. In fact, I need to contact a buyer and see if the amps he bought are performing well... Bob
I also see pattern in the use of "friends and family" on Pay-Pal when it is no such thing....Is that a little lie or a big lie ?? You know what it is ....Its the same thing...Its a lie, to profit from....What about Pay-Pal ?? Don't they deserve there money.....They sure do, its the cost of doing business, a person needs to pay that.....Pay -Pal has pulled my fat out of the fire a few times, saving me thousands of dollars on bad deals...........
BUT you have not sold the item until you have received the payment. So always say that you will hold the item for X days until you receive the payment, If I do not receive the payment the item will be sold to the next person who was interested in buying it. Just let those people know that you have an interested buyer who has said that they are sending the payment. If I do not receive the payment, I will contact you to see if you re still interested.
I have not had this problem selling any items though.
Well I'm wondering myself why I keep doing that, but I guess I hope that it will improve, but I know better .. I wish there was a way to get people off that program, but I think that the "Big Guy" is the only one with those powers.....Only time will tell ??
I’ve been wondering a lot recently about honesty in Internet conducted business transactions. I live in an area in SW Virginia where few people wear face masks. At age 68, knowing I must avoid those people to avoid Covid-19, I’ve limited most of my shopping to internet purchases of late. In particular I’ve purchased maybe 15-18 hardcover books, some in sets over the past few months since the local library is closed. Of these purchases from ABE Books, Ebay and Amazon at least half of the transactions have been problematic, including two more just today.
Problems range from the books being severely damaged in transit, late delivery due to Trump’s recent orders to slow the mail being implemented by his newly appointed postmaster backlogging post offices, a request for $200 extra cash for one set of books ordered above the advertised price, books never being sent at all, plus some other issues such as getting inexpensive paperbacks delivered when expensive hardcovers were ordered and paid for.
At first I thought the Coronavirus was screwing things up, but 50% of simple book orders being screwed up, and the OP’s issues, may indicate otherwise. And regarding stereo equipment, It took about ten calls to get orders for twenty-one isolation feet for my stereo components finally squared away a few months back. CD’s ordered frequently come with damaged jewel cases too.
This high percentage of problems seems in the same ballpark as the OP’s even more extreme issues. I’m extremely frustrated with the degree of follow-up needed to get simple orders fulfilled, or waiting on refunds for orders that seem to take forever to arrive or not. In my experience it’s getting to be a crap shoot to order stuff and time consuming to have to track and follow-up on orders. Makes you long for the brick and mortar stores selling books, records, and stereo equipment, not to mention hardware stores that sold decent tools and hardware, instead of low quality junk from China. Well, that’s enough whining. I hope you all are having better luck.
@autospec , anything that has a 98% Fail isn't worth wasting your precious faith on anymore.
@bigkidz has a good approach for you to follow. Advertise FIRM, state the parameters of the deal clearly and succinctly. "No ship without cleared check", etc.
Anyone that doesn't want to play by your rules doesn't deserve your time, nor what you're selling.
In our business, we've learned how to pre-qualify our clients....literally in first contact, both on the 'net, the phone, or even in person.
Recent call: Prospective customer, wanted pretty much the whole 'A' ticket, pretty much a 'turnkey' project for us.
That's our 'Question #1', without fail.
"What are you interested in?"
Followed by 'Question #2'....also, without fail....
"What is your budget?"
The 'ballpark figure' was considerably less than one could do as a DIY.
"We're sorry, but our 'A' of that nature generally Starts at 'F'.
A figure 5X what was asked for, especially 'site unseen'. We are NOT operating out of the back of a pickup truck. We are NOT a charity organization. We are NOT 'doing what we do' to rip anyone off and ruin a good reputation that we've spent over a decade to create.
We require a certain level of Trust. We require 50% down. We repay that trust with a project that tends to exceed what was expected. We consider that our SOP. We like doing what we do, and would like to continue doing so.
Play Fair. Respect us. We will return that respect and attitude with something you will Absolutely Enjoy having done for your Children.
Yes. We make things for your Children. For their FUN.
That, in itself, demands Trust in Us. We repay that.
Now, that may becoming rare 'out there'.....but we'll be damned to sink to that percieved level.....
I believe in pre haggling by messaging or emails. The condition and operation of the relevant equipment should be exposed and then agreed to. Then any shipping costs investigated and agreed to. Once a deal has been agreed to, ie the order/invoice paperwork is agreed to by both parties or intermediary, the funds are transferred, or what ever the safest way comfortable by BOTH parties. As long as there is no dishonesties (unfortunately not guaranteed), both parties should be mostly be satisfied. As long as there is specific documentation accompanying the transaction as should be well. It also is essential to be honest and upfront about sellers and buyers expectations. (Who am I teaching?). I have been done over once. My fault for being inexperienced and gullible. Once bitten, twice shy.
I now see myself as honest as I predict the second party to be. Now way will I rip someone off. Neither would I expect to be done over either. 🇦🇺
I believe most people are honest and show at least some level of empathy. We help each other to achieve better things.
Then there are few people who do not look at you as a person but rather as a mark/asset ready to be exploited. They even come with silver tongues, masters at lies and deception. Sometimes you’ll find many with a short period of time. But don’t make the mistake of assuming this represents people as a whole - don’t let these few self centered people define your world view.
There is absolutely no benefit from stressing about it so don’t. All we can do is plan and screen the best that we can then sometimes roll the dice. Most/all of us have been fooled/snookered at least sometime, and chances are it may happen again. Don’t beat yourself up either. Don’t live in paranoid fear.
It’s easy to get angry when somebody wrongs you, but I try to understand the root cause to better to deal with them and is better for my mental health. I look at the world as endless potential wealth. If we came from huts, clubs, caves, where did all this stuff we enjoy come from? But some people look at the world as having limited pie slices, so they better hustle to get theirs before someone else, sometimes using decent. Often they think in terms of lack, glass half empty than half full. Something in their life programmed them to think this way, often negative.
Noromance: There is no such thing as a 'Democratic Socialist' nation. Because the Socialist government can always be removed in an election. What changes the people when the Socialists are in power? Or are you thinking about the many nations that say they are democracies but are not. Truth is, if you count the real democratic nations of the world you won't get to 25. Its never been more than that. Probably never will be.
Why restrict the criticism to eBayers? 40 or 50 years ago all the big companies were basically honest most of the time. Now they are basically dishonest all of the time. Volkswagen. Big banks defrauding LIBOR. Utility companies charging more to long-time customers. Bank and insurance company mis-selling. Lawyers protecting their own backside instead of putting the client first. Drug companies sellng dangerous products and knowing it. Lies about organic foods and ingredients. Pretending to be green. etc etc. There is no end to it.
Yes, and we can all thank the neoliberal idea of ’shareholder value’ for this unfortunate trend.
It’s a disturbing sign of the times that some people - as seems to be the case here - believe that this type of greedy cynicism (corporate or otherwise) should be blamed on Marx (either Karl or Groucho). Jeeezzz....
’All we can do is plan and screen the best that we can then sometimes roll the dice. Most/all of us have been fooled /snookered at least sometime, and chances are it may happen again.’
You’re right, but I wish I still your faith in people (fellow audiophiles largely excepted).
One scam that I’ve fallen for on numerous occasions is buying something used which has replaceable batteries. Far too many times I’ve discovered that although the batteries had leaked and virtually destroyed their contacts, the seller has forgotten to mention this.
Another time I bought used Dell Optiplex 9020 where the seller had forgotten to mention the missing I/O shields. Easy enough to get some aftermarket replacements but as I’d paid a decent price for it, I kind of expected better.
Books and used smartphones have also been a problem area. I once had a graphic novel described as very good condition delivered which was only fit for the bin.
On the other hand there have been some brilliant sellers who went out of their way to be helpful as possible - all the way from their honest and factual adverts to the packaging of the items.
One bookseller, when I told her how pleasantly surprised I was by the condition of the hardback I bought off her, told me she tries to underplay the condition of her books to avoid customer disappointment.
As you say, planning and screening are all important. And as ever, be especially wary of chasing the ultimate bargain. I had a lifetime of watching my dad get regularly stung that way.
I'm not too sure whether he knows any better today!
Also state your return policy if you want to offer one. Funny thing is I offered a guy who was unsatisfied with a pair of speakers he purchased form me after seven months to return them no questions asked after he felt I was nit honest with hm. But he told me that I had to go pick them up so like I stated previously, be clear in your terms and set the expectations for sales and purchases.
My grain of salt for the benefit of all and my own experience like seller and buyer...
I sold 13,000 books and cd these last years, i have ordered near 2 thousand one...
For the selling part the problematic orders was near between 0 .3% or 0.4 % For my ordering part the % is perhaps a little over near 0.8%... Then double problems ... :) But anyway a very low number of cases ...
I was active on the 3 main sellers in the world...
Then i was lucky, but sometimes we make also our luck:
The service, and communication i gave was first class... And more....Only the wrapping of package we take the care to make, made amazon package look like trash...
For myself i has ordered near 2 thousand books and cd in the last 3 years...With almost the same success...
Is trust a fact of human existence nowadays? Yes...
Why? Without trust no human lives are worth to be lived...
Those who think the contrary are immature, unhealthy or stupid, or armed survivalists, pick the one diagnostic that fit the case...
Trust and cooperation are one, if not the only one event that makes human life a great journey....
By the way in this world i dont want to be the last man standing.... :)
Best regards....
Remark : My audio purchase or order are very small, perhaps 40 orders all in all in the last 7 years, mainly purchase with few sellings... No problem at all in any way.....
« Living is all about convincing yourself, acting is convincing others, you can fake the second not the first»- Groucho Marx
« Being dishonest is being like an ostrich with his head buried in sand, you will fool some to play the same game but at the end you will fool the only one that matters, yourself» - attributed to Bernie Madoff by Groucho Marx
« George Burns has stolen the cigars from Groucho» -Harpo Marx
I will add something about my seller and buyer experience.... The last 6 months has been terrible, not because dishonesty on either part, myself or others, but because the worlwide disruptions by postal offices around the world...
The delays were so great that i has been in the obligation to reimbourse some asking impatient customers.... Tenth times mores problems and more than that probably than in normal times... I can live with that tough... But it was pain in the ass like buyer or seller and i was at the 2 end of the sticks...But i am patient and i wait knowing how it is...
Be patient all of you, most of the times parcels will make it through your doors...
The majority of the people on Audiogon are wonderful. This is why I choose to do business here. I had a guy send me a $1000.00 deposit on a set of speakers once. He changed his mind two weeks later. I cheerfully refunded his money. I consider an item sold only after, it arrives intact to the buyer AND he/she is happy and has posted positive feedback. Even then, with PayPal, the buyer has options to return the item. It's best to not sweat the small percentage of unethical people who exist everywhere. Chances are if the OP goes over the conversation (with the buyer) in his mind, he'll pick up on one or two red flags. Joe
Miller After reading Steven Covey's book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and Jordan Peterson's book 12 Rules For Life, I can state unequivocally that I will never read another self help book from some pompous arse. If you listen to Peterson talk he will continually say he has studied a subject for years and years. He wouldn't debate Richard Wolff on Marxism. Bogus….
I look at it this way, Whether here or on other used equipment sites, the site is only as good as the integrity of the people that use it. Therefore I have a responsibility to be fair in all transactions. If I expect fairness then I have to be fair. If everyone adhered to that value there wouldn't be any problems.
cd318 said one very important word, tribe. Humans evolved by killing each other. There was no other balance that could exist in nature. No other animal could compete with us. Thus we became clannish. Power in numbers. Family became tribe became town and so forth. We learned to trust those in our tribe. England was made up of a rather homogeneous group of people with a high degree of trust. As they were invaded by different races with significant cultural differences the degree of trust eroded. The US has always been heterogeneous and many groups did not receive fair treatment to put it politely. We are slowly coming to grips with this but it takes generations. Socrates said, "Give me a boy until he is seven and he is mine." Some of us, particularly young males always seem to be in a hurry. They bang their heads against the wall for several years, wind up with a family and join the rest of us. This country will never go socialist. There is that great silent majority.
Autospec, sorry to hear about your difficulties. This is why you never send equipment until you are paid. Using an intermediary like PayPal is always a good idea. I have always done business in person. There is always a higher degree of confidence when you shake hands. Some people carry their dreams a little too far and start to barter for an item they really can't afford then become embarrassed to admit it. It may be frustrating but you have not lost anything other than time.
Humans are a royal PITA. 75% of the email you receive is somebody trying to scam you. They will lie, cheat and steel. Why? Survival of course. That is what nature is all about isn't it? If you can't do it honestly then you find other ways. This is primitive human behavior. We counter it by teaching our children to survive honestly. Obvious there are sectors of our society that are failing at this. We need to figure out a way to help them that they find acceptable.
Lets get back to Hi Fi. I just put on the back side of Santana's second album. "Get Ready!
millercarbon...that's the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. You obviously are not a student of sociology or political theory. You seem to know a little bit about electronics. To save yourself the embarrassment of making incredibly ill-informed statements on topics of which you know nothing, perhaps you should stick to shilling for Tekton.
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