I don’t get it. Is it the manufacturers spotting a trend with the tail wagging the dog or does a significant market segment truly prefer the idea of an integrated? Pros; Less space One less set of IC’s In theory-one less chassis/case to pay for Shorter signal paths possible Can combine transformer/cap function Cons; Power supply interference/spuriae Reduced Flexibility-can’t switch amp or preamp as easily or go to monoblocs Less resonance control Long history of lesser performance per measurements and long-term subjective listening Less resale value if it turns out to be a fad Less liklihood of an extremely high performing active preamp
I freely admit I am a skeptic. The industry-like so many others-looks for new market niches to move product. FWIW, the only integrateds I myself would care to audition would be from Esoteric and Luxman who have a long history of designing no-compromise (low-compromise) high-end integrateds.
"Seems like the OP hasn’t much to say with so much positive being said about integrated amps."
I think that OP got the answer he was looking for. Integrated amps seem to be liked by many and not only as a recent marketing plot by manufacturers. So far, responders have given a variety of reasons why they like them and praised amplifiers in wide price range (roughly $1000 to $16000, without re-reading the thread).
In fact, it seems that everyone responding has had an integrated amplifier at some point, Even those who now prefer separates. Which makes "...new market niches to move product." probably not the case.
In short...
"...does a significant market segment truly prefer the idea of an integrated?"
I might not have said this just a few years back, but these days I believe sound quality is not a good reason to not go with a good integrated amp. Solutions to the old problems of sticking too many circuits and large transformers in close proximity to each other in a single box seem to have been solved. Efficient Class D amps do not utilize traditional large power transformers to do their thing and in recent years it also appears the RF noise issues associated with the switching circuits have been resolved. My newer Class D integrated amps, both the Bel Canto C5i and the $80 Fosi are both dead quiet, easily among the quietest I have ever owned or heard.
I still run separates in my main rig, but when the time comes to replace that, I will most likely take the opportunity to downsize and go with a good modern integrated amp, very possibly another digital one like the C5i, but with a few more watts if needed. Definitely a Class D amp section. Maybe a tube pre-amp section, like a Rogue Pharoah, but leaning away from any tubes at all at this point.
Efficient Class D amps do not utilize power transformers and in recent years it also appears the RF noise issues associated with the switching circuits have been resolved.
I agree, even though I am considering going from Class D monoblocks to a linear integrated or even HT receiver.
Above all, in an apartment, I can no longer afford the clutter and floor space of separates, not to mention horrible cable messes. Right now, simplicity and space come first, followed by sound quality. I wish I could say I have a home in the mountains where I can have a dedicated listening room and beautiful rack which hides all my cables, but that’s not going to happen.
I have become a devotee of Marie Kondo by necessity.
erik most of the world is with you on that desired lifestyle description including me these days, especially as I head towards retirement years and more downsizing and fewer hassles. I will probably keep my big OHM F5s around as long as possible but pretty much everything else is already on the downsizing path. The $80 Fosi helped open my eyes to what is possible in a small package and on a limited budget, though I tend to think I would still find it hard to settle for just a single $80 integrated amp the size of a pack of cigarettes alone.
I have not heard anyone ever mention the name ARCAM in any of the discussions. I wonder why? Also wonder what people think of the Parsound Halo Integrated. I thought it sounded great for that price point and it sure can push a lot of current. Also wonder why manufactures push watts rather than amps (current). I thought the amps were the most important spec.
Dave Belles had an interesting piece on his website about the sonic advantages of an integrated. Not sure if it’s still there. I remember it as essentially the amp and preamp can be “perfectly” matched. And not have to be compatible with dozens of other products and brands.
If one does not require the gain provided by the pre-amp section of an integrated and most separate pre-amps, a power amp with a built-in passive pre-amp (control of volume, switching, etc.) is an attractive alternative to a conventional integrated (which in many cases have a power amp section compromised in the interest of meeting a retail price point).
There are some of that kind of product available, and I could provide the name of one tube amp designer/builder who will I believe install a passive pre-amp in one of his amps if you so desire (he approves of the concept). I could, but have been reprimanded for "pimping" for him and his products. Can't have that, so you’ll have to figure it out for yourselves. Hint: He was for years located in beautiful Santa Barbara, but has relocated to the Berkeley/Oakland area in N. California (not without its’ own charms).
Yeah, if you think you need high quality active preamp better go with separates, I guess. Would Diablo's power amp section equal or outperform any separate power amp in most cases within this price range ? That's an interesting question. Theoretically, one can add separate active preamp to Gryphon, let's say tube preamp, if they electrically match well. Adding separate tube pieces to Diablo, phono and active preamp, and see what happens would be true audiophile experimentation.
fsonicsmith excellent query with corresponding Pros and Cons accordingly.I believe that it is fair to report that in 2019, the Integrated Amp, has become a strong competitor to Separates. No doubt that some audio manufacturers build Reference quality products currently. Add a little advanced technology by way of a DAC or server/streamer capabilities, one can be musically rewarded. Last year, I had the aural pleasure of auditioning the Anthem STR integrated amp. This year, so far, I have had the aural pleasure of auditioning an AYRE AX-5 Twenty integrated amp. Both are very musical, the AYRE, moreso as reflected in its price. I am going to take a second demo with the AYRE. I never thought I would ever consider an integrated amp? Happy Listening!
I, the OP, am not only aware of wine analogies, but also bicycle analogies. The bicycle industry came up with the idea of compact frames (sloped top tubes for those that don't know bikes) so that instead of needing to manufacture ten frame sizes in 1 cm increments they could instead accommodate 98% of the population with a S, M, L, and XL. This behooved the industry, not the consumer. But consumers were sold on looks and false claims of increased rigidity and speed. Every three or four years the bicycle industry comes up with a new "flavor of the month" to seduce the gullible into ditching what they have and replacing it with the new "best". Aero, integrated brakes, disc brakes, elastomer suspended forks and rear-triangles etc. etc. etc. I, being a skeptic, don't claim to be right, but only offer the humble suggestion that integrated amps are a solution for a problem that never was. Whatever is old is new again. A Krell integrated graced the cover of Stereophile 25 years ago with the immortal caption, "What the Krell?". It failed on measurements and consumer satisfaction despite delivering name cache combined with lower price. Can an integrated offer state of the art sound? Unquestionably yes. Is the fact that every major manufacturer and their sister is offering an integrated a sell-job by the industry? IMHO, unquestionably yes.
"The bicycle industry came up with the idea of compact frames (sloped top tubes for those that don't know bikes) so that instead of needing to manufacture ten frame sizes in 1 cm increments they could instead accommodate 98% of the population with a S, M, L, and XL. This behooved the industry, not the consumer. But consumers were sold on looks and false claims of increased rigidity and speed. Every three or four years the bicycle industry comes up with a new "flavor of the month" to seduce the gullible into ditching what they have and replacing it with the new "best". Aero, integrated brakes, disc brakes, elastomer suspended forks and rear-triangles etc. etc. etc."
fsonicsmith-
Riding a size appropriate compact frame is more efficient. The smaller frame is more rigid and lighter, and handling is more precise, compared to the antiquated traditional design.
If I were buying at this level, I wouldn't even consider standard brakes. I've got the fitness level, but no wallet!
Figure another $2-3K for appropriate attire-you're not gonna be caught on something like that with a hack,el cheapo kit!
I went compact/carbon 13 years ago. Never going back to a traditional frame. Still like an old steel Italian classic, but their heavy and sloppy(compared to something modern)
The thing about the high end bike-you still have to pedal the damn thing!
"Is the fact that every major manufacturer and their sister is offering an integrated a sell-job by the industry?"
In fact, is the fact that every major manufacturer and their sister is offering separates a sell-job by the industry that tries to sell us two items instead of one? That may be a new thread on Audiogon.
Every manufacturer, or at least a significant number of them was offering an integrated years and years ago. They did not invent it this year, or the last. They have improved them over the decades that they have been selling integrated amplifiers and they would like to sell them now, too. You have to forgive them that. That is their job and not a global conspiracy.
As it is obvious from this thread and for a number of reasons, many people are welcoming the opportunity to buy an integrated amplifier.
Someone messed up my bicycle. It clearly says XL but has no sloped top tube.
I have been using integrated amps for years,good ones,I am not missing anything by using them and I am saving something and those in the know,know...I got separates also,the only benefit of separates is you have more to do and as "we" know some people like to tweak more than to listen...just saying.
In one way an interesting topic, since there seems to be so many views and opinions about the pros and cons with integrated amps... On the other hand, it is an irrelevant topic, because the real issue here must be if an integrated amp regarding sound quality can match (or even exceed) a separated pre- and poweramp if they have the same price tag...? My answer is YES, they sure can!
If you look at some of the best and most ambitious integrated amps out there, for example the Gryphon Diablo 300, Mark Levinson No 585, Mcintosh MA9000, Musical Fidelity Nuvista 600/800 and even the Marantz PM-10, all of them getting raving reviews in Audiophile magazines, can of course match and be even better than separated combos in the same price range. The sound quality from an amplifier doesn´t improve just by separating all the units in two or three different boxes, It´s more about the individual components inside and how well those components work together to create the best possible sound. Isolation between different components is important, but short circuitry is important too.
Most separated amps are in a totally different price range and it would not be fair to compare a $10-15k integrated amp with a pre- and poweramp for more than $40-50k... On the other hand, putting everything in one box makes the production cheaper in the first place! Like someone recently mentioned, most people look for most "Bang for the buck", and integrated amps gives them just that and sometimes even moore... I´ve had several integrated amps over a nearly 30-35 year span and all I can say is that I probably had to spend twice the money each time to actually hear any noticeable difference. If I would have chosen separeted units it would have been even moore expensive.
If you have more money than you can spend, of course go for a separated amp, believe it would produce better sound than any existing integrated amp, and be happy! But IMHO you are only fooling yourself!
I’m surprised no one has mentioned that Mark Levinson just introduced NOT 1 but 2 new Integrated models with full on multi media control..I am sorely tempted to sell a kidney for the $7000.00 entry fee...
There are some great sounding integrated out there. I have gone the route of separates to integrated back to separates. The main reason was when switching/moving up the speaker chain, I needed more power and I wasn’t going to use the integrated as a preamp, that would be foolish. The last integrated I had was the Hegel top of the line unit which was very good. But when I compared the Hegel separates to the integrated, their integrated was nowhere close being as good. Same with the mcintosh integrated I owned 18 years ago. Both integrateds were very good but were compromised compared to their separates, but the separates were more $. When you look at equipment, the best dac or phono preamp will not be in an integrated, they will always be separate pieces. How many times have you seen that the dac in this integrated is the best dac you can buy? NEVER because they will compromise that piece to fit it in an integrated.
Another trend I see is to pack more functionality in the preamp, for example, my new Mcintosh pre has 2 phono inputs (MM and MC which I use) and a built in dac (which I don’t use, my external PSA dac sounds much better). IMO, making the preamp have more functionality makes more sense than a fully integrated for a number of reasons, 1 being keeping the low powered devices in 1 chassis instead of trying to isolate a huge transformer in the mix. Class D amps aren’t there yet IMO. Separates also give you the flexibility of changing 1 or the other pieces from SS to tube. I might have an all SS separate setup and if I decide to go with tubes, I can change the preamp to tubes and keep my amps SS or vice versa.
The easy answer is value. I just went through a complete upgrade of my system and the need to combine surround processing for TV/Movies along with my desire to get great 2 channel performance led me to the integrated amp world. I couldn't touch the performance I'm getting out of the McIntosh MA8900 integrated without spending probably two to three times as much on quality separates. That and the fact that this unit integrates (no pun intended) nicely into the surround system made it an easy choice (see my comments under the thread "New McIntosh amp build quality" - have an issue that they are addressing).
Oh, then there's the W.A.F. which was a fairly important consideration. The Mac doesn't eat tons of space or look like an industrial relic from the 1800's.
To each their own, but I think in today's audio market, integrated amps have a lot to offer at every budget level.
@fsonicsmith "Resonance control" WTF is that? Also, how on earth would a few inches/feet shorter "signal path" make any difference at audio frequencies? And what is combining transformer/cap function? That is some electrical engineering people don't learn in school, so you might enlighten us. :))
I can think of many reasons. Cost, Space, Convenience etc. Sure an integrated includes tradeoffs. One power supply for all sections is a compromise that may have audible consequences. Lack of flexibility outside of basic features may inhibit future upgrades. But the real question to me is how much more do you have to spend to meaningfully improve sonic performance ? Lets say you purchased an integrated for $5k after comparison with $5k in separates (pre- media streamer/DAC - amp), and determined that you could not hear much if any difference. At what point would you hear enough of a difference to offset the increase in cost ? $7.5k $10K ? For many, cost is a consideration. For most, integrateds are so good that it is only at the margins where improvements can be heard. And for many outside of the suburban/rural US, space -IS- is a consideration. A single elegant box is a much cleaner aesthetic solution when space is at a premium. I use an integrated in my computer system (MF A3.2), and a former TOTL HT receiver in my family room (Marantz SR7009), but separates in my main system (tube, with 2 TT).
Given that the industry exists to sell stereo equipment isn't a "sell-job" what they are all about? Or any business for that matter? Also at the end of the day really who cares? If you don't like the idea of an integrated there are plenty of separates out there, and if you want an integrated you are spoiled for choices.
I, being a skeptic, don’t claim to be right, but only offer the humble suggestion that integrated amps are a solution for a problem that never was. Whatever is old is new again. A Krell integrated graced the cover of Stereophile 25 years ago with the immortal caption, "What the Krell?". It failed on measurements and consumer satisfaction despite delivering name cache combined with lower price. Can an integrated offer state of the art sound? Unquestionably yes. Is the fact that every major manufacturer and their sister is offering an integrated a sell-job by the industry? IMHO, unquestionably yes.
I don’t see how you can say this other than by ignoring at least half the comments posted on this thread. Have you been reading them? Any of them? The whole thread is a virtual refutation of everything you just said.
You think one Stereophile cover 25 years ago makes your point? I went shopping for my first real system upgrade in 1973 at the age of 16. There was no Stereophile or any other advertising I was aware of back then to sway me. I simply went around to every store and listened to everything and figured out for myself that integrateds had by far the most performance for the money. Not receivers. Integrateds. If there was any sell-job by the industry it was for receivers. But if it was it was a bad one. Anyone doing what I did, actually comparing and listening, would figure out the integrated is the sweet-spot.
One last thing, just to highlight the extent of your illogic. You say you’re a skeptic. Then you conclude with, "Unquestionably yes."
I’m a little hazy on my definitions. Help me out. Skeptic. Unquestioning. These go together how?
In my opinion, it really isn't sound quality that is the number one driver for people purchasing an integrated amp. most people are not audiophiles and don't sit and listen to music for hours on end. They have "lives" (notice the quotes?) and listen to music while doing other things. So, music is background music to them. don't get me wrong, they appreciate good sound, but I believe in most cases (not super high end), aesthetics, space, costs, less complexity are the driving issues in the purchase.
Most places (Europe and other countries) simply don't have large living spaces that can be taken up by lots of equipment and cabling.
People that are forced to downsize also want less complex equipment and have less space and time to tinker.
Consider, that many people simply have no clue as to the costs of high end equipment and are quite taken aback when they walk into a high end store and see what's offered and the prices. That's like being prepared to purchase a subaru and mistakenly walking into a Mercedes dealership. Opp, my bad, time to back out quietly.
I love music, played many instruments and can't stand it when music doesn't sound real or right. So, I made a conscience choice to make music and listening a priority in my life. I can't tell you how many people I know think I'm absolutely nuts.
But, they have no problem with distinguishing high end cars, watches, etc. interesting.
Also, the Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF) is still very much alive and well. I am starting to see separates looking quite nice, but, this is still a sore spot for many. Most integrated amps look nice.
I don't see a new fascination. Integrated amps or receivers have been around for as long as I can remember.
When I'm ready to downsize, I would be very interested in a very nice integrated. I'm not sure I want to be worried about tube amps later on. I already watched on of my Audio Research REF 250 amps go up in flames when a tube failed. it took out resistors and capacitors and traces. I was watching when it happened. $3,000 in repairs later it is perfect. And those were brand new tubes purchased from a tube supplier that claimed they were matched tubes for that amp. Never again. I will only purchase tubes from Audio Research. they will pay for repairs to their equipment if tubes they supply fail. lesson learned. However, a very good solid state amp or integrated amp that can drive my speakers (which may also change when I downsize) is the next step in this adventure.
I think manufacturers have realized integrateds can be the “gateway drug” for getting consumers into their sound/brand as they move up tiers in the cost/quality chain (yeees, not indelibly linked), so they have made them better. Especially higher end brands that suffer from chronic unattainability. Lower-model separates from such a brand also seem less sexy / attractive in terms of perceived-value than their highest-model integrated... (and this sometimes is true for real SQ because of the first reason above).
Take any true high end manufacturer, after hearing their better or any separates you wouldn't want to listen to their integrateds for long or at all. However, there might be exceptions, I heard that some people prefer overall the sound of DartZeel integrated to the separates. I personally have not encountered any exception so far.
Here is a dealers take on the matter, our company Audio Doctor sells a lot of integrated amplifiers we carry three classes of integrated amplifiers:
1: Class One, is a lifestyle oriented integrated amplifier these tend to have built in dacs and streamers: Naim’s Uniti products, Nad’s M10 and C368 are good examples of this class amplfiers tend to run in price from $899-$3,300.00
2: Class Two: More expensive more ambitious versions of the above, these are more expensive higher performing units, the more expensive Naim Uniti Star and Nova, the Micromega M100, the Anthem Str, the new Krell K300i these units go up to $8,000.00
3: Class Three: Uber intergrated amplifiers in our store the T+A 3100HV a $23k integrated amplifier and their less expensive 2500R a $12,500.00 integrated amplfiers would be in this class.
The arguement that an integrated amplifier is a compromise is a falicy, the simple fact that you don’t need interconnects and have everything built into a single box means that signal paths are shorter and you lose nothing going from one part of the circuit board to another many of the above integrated amplifiers sound fantastic.
The real arguement is cost does integrated amplfier for X dollars beat a pile of separate components for the same money?
Also another wrinkle in the integrated amplfiers vs separates is the concept of the Dac/preamp and a separate amplifier here at least you only need perhaps one interconnect if the box is a also a streamer or you may need a digital cable if you add a streamer. The new Anthem STR amp and preamp are a great represenation of this concept the STR preamp includes a built in dac and therefore you only need one high end interconnect to the amp.
The Naim Uniti Nova sounds fantastic, at $7,500.00 however, the more expensive separate Naim NAC 272 preamp/dac and a Nap 250dr does sound dramatically better however that package costs $15,000.00 with an interconnect. This is a really amazing sounding two box solution so nearly an intergrated.
So we would comment that a good integrated amplifer may easily do battle with a pile of separates and may beat them, the Micromega M100 includes a great dac, a streamer, a built in phono stage, and a powerful Class A/B power amplifier for $4,500.00
If you compare that product to a pile of many less expensive products that now you have an amplifier like a Parasound which we also sell you are going to be spending $1,500 for an amplifier $1,500.00 for a preamp/dac $400 on an interconnect add in a Blue sound Node for a streamer $500 and a $200 digital cable and you have a combined price tag of $4,100.00 in three separate boxes vs $4,500.00 for the Micromega.
You do now have more flexibilty but does that combo sound better and now you have three boxes power cords interconnects vs one single box which just requires a set of speaker cables.
The high end intergrated amplifier makes using and assembling a good system much easier and sometimes at lower costs.
The new Krell K300i sounds absolutely fantastic for an $8k price point including a good dac and streamer.
The concept of the uber integrated amplifier from T+A shows just how advanced these products have come this $23k reference intergrated amplifier is basically the company’s separate $19k power amplifier and $16k preamplifier put into one chassis the only difference is a simplified preamplifier stage, vs the separates.
So $23k and no interconnect vs $19k + $16k + $3k inteconnect = $38k for an improved sound but you are not giving up mutch as the amplfier stage is exactly the same.
The T+A PA 3100HV integrated will beat most separates, its earlier incarnation which cost $18k was compared to a $120K worth of CH Precison’s separates and the reviewer Allan Taffel, was having a hard time figuring out which one we was listening to
"PA3000 not only competes directly with integrated amps that run all the way up to $50k, it holds its own against $120k worth of Switzerland’s best separates. This is a component that’s not to be missed. "
"How close is the sound? Let me start with the PA3000 HV. At $17,000, this 300-watt integrated amp costs about 15 percent of my reference CH Precision C1/2xA1 combo. Yet when I switch between them the most striking thing I hear is their utter similarity.
Of course, I tried to find differences. On the Original Master Recording LP of Donald Fagen’s The Nightfly, I queued up “The Goodbye Look” and carefully compared bass (identical), vocals (identical), the twang of the solo guitar (identical), and the snap of the xylophone (identical). Most importantly, both presentations preserved the percolating rhythm that make this—and many of the album’s other songs—such an enduring pleasure. To be sure, the reference CH equipment creates a wider soundstage, and its tonality is a little more fleshed-out. But I seriously doubt I’d be aware of either of these without a back-to-back comparison.
The biggest difference between the T+A and the CH Precision is at the very top end, where the reference is more refined, though not any more extended. Bear in mind that even this difference, though audible as a touch of roughness, still falls into the subtle category. As evidence, consider that while trying my darndest to ferret out differences like this one, I frequently put down my pen and succumbed to the music. I listened to entire sides of even the most familiar albums.
That’s an indication of how little these scant distinctions matter, and how miraculously close the PA3000’s sound and capacity to captivate come to the higher-buck Swiss Sound stalwarts.
"So if an expensive, $18k or a $23k high end integrated but comparatively cheap compared to the $120k just for the price of the CH Precision gear how much was Mr. Taffels multiple sets of power cords and interconnects can sound nearly as good that should put this concept that a high end integrated can and will be compared to the very best separates and come out sounding as good as or better than many."
Bear in mind that this is vs the older PA 3000, the newer PA 3100 uses an improved preamp stage and a few other improvments that elevate that integrated amplfier into even better performance.
So yes it is clear that a high end intergrated amplifier can either duplicate or exceed the performance of many uber expensive separates.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ, Dealers for T+A, Naim, Krell, Micromega, Nad, Parasound
After a lot of research I choose the Theory plus Application "T+A" PA3000 with the optional phono module ~$18.5k. As Audio Doctor outlines above; I believe purchasing separates that could delivery the same performance levels at this price point would be difficult to replicate. Plus, not to mention taking up considerably more space.
In the PA3000 the preamplifier and power amplifier sections are physically separated. It’s a true dual-mono design; with separate left and right channels. From the owners manual " The PA 3000 HV features complete and consistent channel separation in the signal processing stages (double-mono construction), and for this reason the input and output sockets are also arranged in strict symmetry relative to the centre of the machine."
Power ratings for the PA3000 are 300W RMS per channel into eight ohms 700W peak per channel into to four ohms.
One thing that I found interesting is that this integrated supports bi-wiring.
Again from the manual "The two pairs of terminals are ideally suited for use in the bi-wiring arrangement in conjunction with high-quality loudspeakers. For bi-wiring mode connect the bass range to output A, and the mid-range / treble range to output B."
I'll bite. I bought a hegel int and owned a couple int's before that. I had a Krell int that had class a pre and the power side baked so I used as a pre amp for several years while going thru a parade of power amps. Every Int i've had offers main outs so I can add a second amp when I need and having a second amp to drive the bass can help speakers that present a difficult load in my experience. The biggest downside of using an int is the lack of good heat dissipation. Dollar for dollar we should expect more value buying a 3 in 1 compared to a pre, and 2 monoblocks just in the aluminum face plates alone. In a fair market.
Well my Parasosund A21 2ch amp is 65 lbs. You research the build if you desire but you can't stuff that quality into an integrated…But I have had plenty of integrated also, Onkyo makes up second system, Yamaha is in garage both are 15 years old plus…It's all good and comes down to what you can afford and space available.
bac2vinyl we are a Parasound dealer and the A21 is an excellent amplifier for its price, howerver, a $6k Coda intergrated sounds far superior, then the A21 with the P5 preamp, which would be a $3,500 package, as we demoed that combination vs the Coda CS 1b, and the Hegel and Luxman Integrateds we had at the time and those pieces, still sounded clearer, just because you have a heavy weight product it has nothing to do with sound quality.
The A21 and 21+ will deliver a lot of clean power for the price point the higher end gear is more expensive due to parts quality, a Coda CS 1b uses a 3kv tranfomer, vs a 1.2vk transformer in the A21+, that is just one reason why it sounds better.
Josephep, congratuations on the T+A PA 3000 HV it is an extraordinary integrated amplifier, love to know the rest of your system?
audiotroy I really like your take! I started out with receivers, Pioneer, Technics and Onkyo then went to the NAD 3020 integrated when it first came out and really though it was pretty darn good. After that I wanted to try the seperates route. I had Adcom, Cary SLA-80 w/ Audible Illusions Modulus preamp and Blue Circle. pretty nice stuff but still had that hankering for a good integrated and I've been "integrated" since. I've had an Audiomat Arpege, C.R. Developments Kalypso then a step up to C.R.'s Romulus. I then went to SS and tried a Sonneteer Campion which I still have but wanted more power and now have a Primare i30 which is very good match to my speakers so I'm pretty pleased these days.
Here’s my phisological take on this. Esoteric F03-A
After 35 years in this hobby, I never thought an integrated could sonically match (and exceed) a stack of reference tube electronics that it replaced in my system. This is a feat that would never have been possible for any integrated 10 years ago. I have been so impressed that I have no desire to go back to separates. Not in my lifetime!!
Full disclosure....Speakers are Verity Audio Parsifal Anniversary although the Amadis S would mate a little better with this amp but hey, you can’t have everything.
About a year and half ago the wife could no longer take all the cabling and power cords associated with my tube monos and preamp, not to mention the sub in our family room and for lack of a better term was evicted out of there I really didn't have another room suitable for listening so I packed up all the components and purchased a relatively inexpensive pair of active speakers The Airpulse Mo del one Phil Jones' latest creation.
They actually sound pretty good and had a lot of fun with them but I happened to be scouring Craigslist and came across someone locally selling a pair of Platinum Audio Ref 1's and grabbed them. hooked them up to My Pioneer receiver a vsd x 912 and they sounded really good but seemed to be crying out for more power so I checked the ad someone mentioned here for the Denon PMA 2000 ixvr integrated and the person selling it also happened to be local and will be taking delivery of that as well soon. These are supposedly known for their high current capabilities and will report back after I get it. I guess my point is that a after all this rambling a decent integrated may be a good compromise for anyone without a dedicated listening room
Just the perspective of someone who struggles with the design trade-offs, both technical and the big one **COST**. The unsaid part here is that everything is a compromise of what we want to do, against what we can afford to do - in design, mechanical, parts quality and quantity, etc. I think the original poster, who was assailed for having a "technical" perspective was simply aware of some of these trade offs that in the end, limit sound-for-dollar. I mostly agree with them. No matter either way.
An integrated amp reduces spend on several very costly parts that don’t contribute directly (yes indirectly) to sound quality - chiefly among them one chassis vs two. The big ticket items in almost anything are the chassis, heat sinks, transformer, and trim. Electronics are fairly modest. Heck, the packaging (cardboard box, etc.) often costs more than the circuitry itself. And you cut that in half too.
So the cost can come down faster than the quality. There are issues with integrated amps, some noted above, but what has not been noted is that with some effort and money they can be overcome. Chief among them is the power supply compromise. I’ve done a couple of integrated designs, one as a contract, and i simply did not make that compromise - easy as that. Spend the money, build multiple idealized supplies. QED.
So the theme is valid - reduce cost, hopefully with a less-than-proportional reduction in sound quality. What will be lost?:
-- flexibility to have different power levels or to change them
-- chassis isolation of the low level from high level circuitry (a big deal IMNSHO)
-- flexibility to locate amps near speakers and pre-amps near the listener (another biggie to me)
-- stuff i wont go into.
At the end of the day most people would be well served by a truly great 30W integrated. More money could be then spent on DACs/timing/speakers/vinyl reproducers where the differences are larger and the laws of physics sometimes conspire to make bigger better.
In fact I just slapped my own circuitry in a vintage integrated chassis from [fill-in high quality 1970’s Japanese manufacturer here] for my bedroom. And yep, i built three power supplies and somehow wedged them in :-) G
Desire is a tricky thought to master. Manufacturers work hard to keep us from controlling ours. For the most part, they succeed and we all succumb in some area of life.
I have a Naim Uniti Atom, Totem Signature Ones, my original Thorens from 30 years ago and a Parasound Halo Jc Jr phonostage. Some nice Transparent cables. It all sounds really good. Musical and eminently fun. Do you know when it doesn’t? When I go and listen to a 70,000 system at my favorite dealer. But you know what I do with the 60k difference? I invest it and average a minimum of 12% per annum. In 18 years when I retire, that will be at least 480k. So, does that 70k system sound like it is worth a half a million dollars? Not to my ears.
And here’s another thing. My brain can’t readily hold on to the difference of a 10k equipment bump up after a short period of time. Like doing A/B switching. The brain adjusts.
Moreover, if I want to hear really good music? I hang and sing with my musician friends. I don’t care what sound system you have, my friend’s Steinway will still sound better. It’s real music, not reproduced music, and it’s made with friends, so I am inside the experience.
My relatively modest system just works and is compact.And the clean simplicity and ease of use of everything I own reduces my stress level. Lower cortisol? I might just live longer.
So figure out what your values are, and make a decision on your stereo based on the fullness of your life and the goals you pursue. If you’ve done that successfully, the question is no longer about something as inane as integrateds vs separates. It’s about how well you are living and enjoying your life.
I had McIntosh amp and preamp in a large living room. I had excellent sound. We sold the house and the McIntosh gear. I now have a dedicated 18 x 12 music room. I purchased a Luxman integrated. I was prepared to have downgraded sound because I went "integrated". I was very pleasantly surprised, the Luxman gave me better sound. (I know different room, different speaker placement) but none the less, better sound, and excellent features on the Luxman. I also have the option to use the "separate" feature on the front panel and remote and use the Luxman as a dedicated preamp, if I wanted to buy a new amp.
Bottom Line... Integrateds can provide excellent sound!
Of course, just not the best sound. As mentioned above, power supply compromise is the last thing that I would want and lack of true separation of low level and high level circuitry is a big audiophile no no.
That's all well and good but at what cost? In the real world with mortgage payments, college tuition, and the ever increasing cost of living many people have to find a middle ground of sorts and compromise somewhere
Right. Including me, at least for now. Economic future is getting more and more uncertain for the majority, I think. I currently spend less on equipment upgrades than I could.
That’s one reason why I am interested in Gryphon Diablo 300 and consider getting it at some point in time, most likely used. It is very close to no-compromise integrated, of course it’s a compromise compared to Gryphon separates. If it lasts me for ten years, even new this would not be too much. Problem is that you have to pay upfront or finance on not so favorable terms. But eventually I think I’ll get it, unless I decide to go all tubes or get very lucky with older Gryphon separates.
·
Bryston BDP-3 Digital Music Player w/ Samsung
860 PRO 2TB 2.5 Inch SATA III Internal SSD
·
Music Hall MMF-9.1 Turntable (with the Goldring
Eroica LX cartridge)
·
Legacy Audio Focus SE Loudspeakers (bi-wired)
I have two short (20’) dedicated 30 amp 10 gauge service
lines (US made Southwire Romex - 😊) from the panel for this system. The integrated
amp is plugged directly into the wall and the other components going to a
Furman PST-8D Digital Power Station, the MP3000HV two powers cables - one for
the digital side and one for the analog side, I spit between each of the PST-8D
isolated banks.
I am pretty light vinyl user so I went a bit middle of the
road with a turntable. The BDP-3 is connected to the MP3000HV via AES/EBU – I think
sound quality is a bit better than going USB.
AES/EBU better than USB? Really? AES/EBU is just SPDIF on a balanced physical layer, with all the synchronous issues (clock is least common denominator) rather than USB whcih allows, no, demands re-clocking - its asynchronous. Actually its not re-clocking, its clocking, period. That means your DAC determines the timing, and timing + voltage (DAC'd output) = slope = frequency = music, to over-simplify. So that's almost astonishing, unless your digital source has God;s own clock. You hear what you hear, and you may be right in this instance, but i'd be asking myself "why?" and "what's wrong with the other interface?" G
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