@desktopguy -- +1 @mijostyn -- ... You want to be listening to the driver and nothing else. Unfortunately, enclosures are musical instruments. They make noise when excited by the driver. They also move. These two problems muddy the sound. Building a perfectly rigid, immovable enclosure is very difficult and for commercial interests very expensive. The Magico is a good example. There are contradictions that you have to work through such as,
it is easier to make a small enclosure stiff but you want an enclosure as heavy as possible so it does not move. You can’t put big drivers in a small enclosure but bigger drivers have less distortion. Companies have to make compromises based mostly on cost. Even relatively expensive subs like JL Audio units have to make compromises. Forest for the trees; I’ve read this sentiment of yours shared by Robert Harley as well, who holds big subs are practically non-viable due to the added requirements in regards to enclosure stiffness and mass (which, as you point out, is thought to effectively limit or even kill commercial implementation through severe weight and steep prices). For one added size naturally leads to an addition in mass, but the extremity demanded of this and overall enclosure stiffness is, to my mind, exaggerated, not to say that its importance, to some degree, is trivial. From my chair though this "dogma" if I may of "a perfectly rigid, immovable enclosure" is unnecessary and limiting into seeking out the potential of big subs using big drivers (pre-built options incl. JTR, PSA, Funk Audio, Seaton Sound, Deep Sea Sound etc., and pro companies like Danley Sound Labs), because less will absolutely do in that regard, certainly with quality plyboards and strategic bracing. Magico subs, as someone who may comply with named dogma, are, in my view - and I must be blunt here - laughably expensive because they’ve gone overboard with construction rigidity and overall material use to such a degree that it becomes perverse almost. Myself I’ve gone the DIY- and pro-route, in addition to commercial "hi-fi" products, as there are very few manufacturers out there supplying horn subs, and there have been no indications, at any SPL, that my properly braced 20 cf. tapped horns build in 18mm 13-ply BB have provided anything other than smooth, enveloping, effortless bass devoid of any apparent enclosure-colorations. If there are any such colorations they’re so miniscule I’d simply wave them aside as insignificant, and in any case there would be other areas to invest one’s scrutiny to better bass performance. With everything hi-fi one can be sure, certainly in most cases, that if you want to go big with subs and adhere to physics it’s going to be outrageously (not to mention unnecessarily) expensive, and often if not mostly you haven’t even gotten to where the physical requirements are properly met. That is, unless you’d consider the sub brands mentioned in parenthesis above, brands I’d guess are less accepted in the hi-fi milieu as anything other than cinephile doable.. |
I can't speak for others--but in my case, "obsession" with the bass stems from:
-- deep familiarity with all manner of live music performed in actual music spaces (everything from rock to jazz/jazz clubs to opera to large symphonic and/or choral works in concert halls)
-- Speaking of the symphonic/choral music (because it's non-amplified), there is a huge weight & dynamic capability from the lower midrange on down that completely envelops the listener. Mid-bass and deeper bass is felt as much as heard
-- In electrified settings, the bass is also larger & more dynamic than most other things. It can get downright concussive, depending on the mix, the amp, and the player
So when setting up home audio or desktop audio systems, I look for at least a convincing simulation of that natural bass weight/impact. And that means messing with subs. More than just subs--it also means choosing speakers that are capable of that natural bass weight/impact from the midrange on down.
In short, it's not "obsession" as much as pursuit of what one hears in real life music. |
I think most have never heard a great subwoofer system "perfectly" set up and dialed in...when my main speakers are not set up properly they still sound good, but not their best...when subwoofers are not set up and dialed in properly everything sounds terrible... |
+1 tomic601. Yes, the stand up bass, and Ray Brown. I am not concerned about the bottom octave, at least not as it results directly from my speakers, it is getting the harmonics/overtones correct. |
@millercarbon and @audiokinesis got it 100% correct. The old 1 or 2 REL next to mains is not near the same result. |
Ray Brown - Soular energy |
bass is a whole lot more than 100 hz and down. Listen to some well recorded solo acoustic stand up bass and you will see low fundamentals and then harmonics well, well above that. Quality is more than fixing frequency response issues caused by small rooms. Swarm is an approach to frequency response averaging with constructive and destructive interference- BUT a cheap resonant cabinet that is out of phase to the input signal is hardly what I would call high quality. A poorly damped cabinet will ring far above the fundamentals. so SWARM or any other sub done right is way more than just buying lots of them....
IF you have an RTA ( there is that pesky Fourier transformation again, perhaps a revisit w Keith is in order ) i suggest listening to well recorded acoustic bass....Pretty sure there is a screenshot in my virtual system pics.
Also, most audiophiles actually dig SLAM, which is about 80-160 hz.
enjoy the music, all of it. |
@
mijostyn
Great point well put. That's the difference between an intelligent and articulate post and the dribble that @millercarbon posts. His posts are like "you're a stupid idiot unless you listen to me".
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Bass frequencies are essential . Even if you think there is no need of it as in listening to a female soprano. Speakers that play above around 60 Hz sound clear , clean , pristine. When the speaker can plays lower frequencies transparency and detail very often suffer. Reason being lower frequencies require care in speaker position. Sometimes the speaker does not couple with room boundaries, or the room acoustics are unsuitable. Hence a limited low end extension speaker will sound better. Takes time and patience to get the room acoustics treated and speakers optimally positioned . When done right the sound just clicks in and all is good. The same applies to subwoofer. It is important to choose a full range speaker or stand mounts with subwoofer to match room size. Then to get an amplifier to synergise with speakers. Too often we buy speakers without considering the room . |
I caught one 9 1/2 lbs two weeks ago . |
I hav eno booming bass, but do have a matching dedicated amp and preamp. Recently, I had to listen to just my mains to reorient myself to just how much bass I need. The system does allow me to make old LP's sound much better, especially when I bypass the sub crossover to add harmonics to horribly mixed albums..
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last time i checked bass and sub bass were part of the audible audio frequency range :) arent we obsessed with how everything sounds?
but seriously bass is the most difficult part of the frequency range to reproduce to an audiophile extent. it requires the biggest speaker drivers and enclosure volume, the most amplifier power and is most prone to room boundary and volume interactions, non linear reflections and frequency cancellations.
get it right and it is rewarding as heck.
and you ask why the obsession? |
Such a obsession to deal with bass issues. Why is this?
The ability to control the extra low frequency is just plain fun for me. On a sub if there is too much rumbling simply turn it down. With proper room placement and modern multiple equalization parameters its possible to increase the extra low frequencies while controlling the subs unwanted nature. As far as mains these probably are not much of an issue for most of us.
Probably not for many but being obsessed I enjoy that brief sense of conformation when I see a statement full range speaker being demonstrated with subwoofers. However for bookshelves speakers it makes sense they really aren’t well designed for lower range frequencies. True, but with the right program material I've been startled by more affordable small two-way speakers than I can remember. Watch out for that deep rabit hole. |
Kitchen island good place for sub. |
I have heard that having a 2" thick piece of granite or bluestone cut to the size of your downward-firing subwoofer's footprint and then sitting the sub on top of it will improve bass, the idea being that there is more and denser mass to the stone than the wood floor underneath, with the added benefit that it will keep the entire house from becoming a transducer.
Does anybody have any thoughts about this? I am considering it. |
If set up right, a little bit of added bass will make the music more full and ambient. Try to add a sub at the center and closer to your listening position if possible. |
Actually, I know some bookshelf speakers that make better bass than towers. Duke has a very valid point about using just one sub two good mains being better. Even companies like Magico and Wilson make subwoofers for their systems. It is however possible to design a main speaker with excellent bass but it would have to be very large and quite heavy. I do not think that you can get the very best bass this way but this is an opinion. Having built subwoofers for 30 years there are issues specific to subwoofer design that would be difficult to use in a main speaker design. It is easier to do it in a separate unit. In my case since I am so enamored by ESLs it is the only way I can go. I am about to start construction of MS Tool and Woodcraft's Model 4 subwoofer. I hope to have the first unit and proof of concept done by the new year.
Why is bass so important? Why do us males like kicking a--. Why do we like powerful sports cars? Why did our ancestors bang drums, scream and paint themselves up before battle. Bass is important because it is.
It always brings a smile to people's faces. Once you have it everything else sounds anemic, a Mazda Miata vs a 911 Turbo S cab.
@mwatsme, quite right particularly about distortion. Add bigger drivers to that equation. I do not like the term fast. I do not think it applies. I prefer tight vs muddy. You want to be listening to the driver and nothing else. Unfortunately, enclosures are musical instruments. They make noise when excited by the driver. They also move. These two problems muddy the sound. Building a perfectly rigid, immovable enclosure is very difficult and for commercial interests very expensive. The Magico is a good example. There are contradictions that you have to work through such as,
it is easier to make a small enclosure stiff but you want an enclosure as heavy as possible so it does not move. You can't put big drivers in a small enclosure but bigger drivers have less distortion. Companies have to make compromises based mostly on cost. Even relatively expensive subs like JL Audio units have to make compromises. |
What I have found is that 90% of the bass that is there and 90% of the bass that is not there is in the recording. Most of the music engineers today suck. Studio time is money and they are only interested in bottom line profits. I was a professional sound engineer back in the days of stadium rock and months to produce a single song on an album. The only way to achieve a good tight quality bass sound you have to use compression. This is a lost art today people think bass needs to rattle the windows. I hate most bass in today’s recordings it is just muddy with no detail to the notes. Listened to the new Joe Bonamassa release and the bass is horrendous. I could not make out a single note and could only hear a constant low rumble in the background. |
Have you ever experienced live music? A subwoofer (or four in my case) will get you closer to that visceral feeling that one experiences at a concert. |
The only recordings to contain subsonic energy are a few digital
made since ’85.
I've read some dumb things on here, but that takes the biscuit |
Because Vitamin B is good for you. |
Answering the first part of the question, "Why subs?" - because music can include frequencies in the human audible range, 20Hz to 20,000Hz. Most speakers (towers and otherwise) can't play as low as 20Hz; therefore, as a listener, your potentially missing part of the music. We can't hear what the speakers can't play. Would you fully enjoy a painting if it was missing some colors? No, it would be incomplete and likely unbalanced. Avoid the necessity of subs by choosing "full-range" speakers. Why companies make floor-standing speakers that can't play down to 20Hz is a mystery to me - who could possibly want this (unless they intend to add subs in the original plan). To me, these companies are like artists intentionally painting incomplete pictures... a 'novelty item' - no thanks.
The second major issue is how low frequencies (long wave lengths) are affected by physical room dimensions. Very few of us are listening outside in the middle of clear open space. Instead, we are typically listening from inside a box, and those walls, ceiling and floor create peaks and troughs of interesecting air pressure from reflections. These bass nodes change the sound (distortion). How to solve it? Room treatments and multiple sources (multiple subs spread throughout the room) - the more subs the better. Not for more bass volume... for more linearity throughout the room. Additionally, higher quantity of sub drivers (more subs) allows each individual driver cone to move less while summed together achieving the same volume. Less excursion means more accurate cone movement ("fast bass"). Again, more subs is better, but beware - like anything else, there is a curve of diminishing returns regarding value. |
Have noticed that newer speaker cabs are including smaller drivers. Mostly cause people want smaller spkr footprints. Of course this impacts fullness and quality of bass from main speakers.
To solve problem, dealers advocate subs. Marketing genius.
More boxes higher sales.
My older speakers have larger drivers and fill room so much better. Imaging not as good but very nice to listen to.
Size of drivers matter for bass. |
Had to laugh when I read, "its actually about QUALITY, not QUANTITY" because, with subs, you need quantity (more subs) to get quality (better bass).
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Everyone has their own opinion as to what is good bass. A teenager who has 400 pounds of amps and speakers stuffed into a Honda Civic may like to see birds flushed from trees frightened by the booming coming from the car. If that's their goal...good for them.
Personally, I prefer bass that is what I perceive the creator of the music intended. Often that's hard to know. Bass preference is an individual subject. How to achieve YOUR preference?????????????
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Sub-woofers are an interesting phenomena in that they are relatively rare in 2 channel systems in Europe, where they are found mainly in AV theatre systems. They are, rightly or wrongly, often perceived as unnecessary to a pure 2 ch system. The theory being that if a speaker is done right then you shouldn’t need one.
The US market seems more fixated on them, and in the plural as they seem to come in multiple subs in some US systems.
We have smaller rooms in Europe, maybe that’s why too, no room for more wooden cabinets. And we rarely have room for a dedicated Hi-Fi room, usually it’s a home lounge too. If your room only takes a small speaker, that is the type of speaker which most benefits from a sub, then you’re unlikely to be able fit more boxes in. If your room fits a bigger speaker you shouldn’t need a sub.
When I have heard systems with arrays of multiple subs they have sounded to my ears too much. Or when toned down I have heard them sounding good, but not 4 boxes worth of goodness.
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Both extension and dynamics are important, but I also noticed that my new speakers have better bass quality - very natural attack and decay. New speakers are three way with two 8" woofers in larger cabinet for bass, while the older ones were smaller 2.5 way with two 6.5 woofers. Surprisingly extension is the same for both (30Hz). Smaller woofers, smaller cabinet, same extension - something has to give.
With this 2.5 way xover one mid/woofer works up to 2kHz while the other woofer works to 500Hz only. That way frequencies below 500Hz are played by two speakers while other frequencies are played by one speaker only. That way it is possible to get any extension with smaller woofers by fortifying lowest frequencies with additional drivers. I assume that bass refleks with small speakers is tuned to get best extension (for specifications) and not necessarily for the lowest distortions. |
Still gonna rattle off a table top...plastic or glass..Just sayin' :-)
Pureed gray matter comes to mind...
Regards |
I run 12 subs~a triangular stack of three in each corner on a bed of Brazilian beach sand. Since I could not find main speakers that go low enough for my taste, I don’t use them. My wine glass is plastic. |
I think folks are liking the rumble through their bottoms, and THEN discovers it’s actually when the wind gets knocked out of your CHEST, is what they are looking for. NOT vibrate STUFF off tabletops in the next room.
The CHEST pump/BUMP/ whatever you want to call it, is what most folks like, NOT the SUPER SUB.. stuff.. The difference also is HOW that enclosure was designed, A Bass Bin, or a Sub.. A sub enclosure is usually tuned at 100-120 or below. They are normally used as SUBS 60 hz and below..
Bass bins.. 250hz and below, and they may be using a band pass enclosure with and XO to boot.. They are not subs, BUT they can do sub duty quite well, Especially horn loaded subs, VERY directionals.
They use to use them with a topper too. Mids and highs on a bass bin.. Panels, Electro, 57s 60s.
Regards.. |
Emergingsoul asked: "Do subs generally do an inferior quality vs a high end main?"
At the risk of overgeneralizing:
The biggest hurdle to high quality bass is the speaker’s interaction with the room. This will cause a nasty peak-and-dip pattern no matter how high the quality of the speaker or subwoofer, and no matter where they are placed within the room. But two speakers in two different locations will each produce a different peak-and-dip pattern in the bass region, and the SUM of these two different peak-and-dip patterns will be smoother than either one alone.
Therefore, I would expect TWO high-end main speakers to probably produce higher quality bass than a SINGLE high-quality subwoofer (looking at bass quality alone, and not at extension - which is where subwoofers excel).
As the number of widely-distributed bass sources goes up, the sum of their in-room response becomes smoother, and "smooth bass" = "fast bass". This is the concept behind the use of multiple subwoofers - in other words, it’s actually about QUALITY, not QUANTITY.
Whether or not it’s worth the hassle is an individual judgment call.
Duke
commercially affiliated with a distributed multi-sub system
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that kind of sums it up emergingsoul, some like 4 sub arrays, some like 6.5 inch monitors, and some in between...and no question the room is vital as well as proper setup which ranges from difficult to easy...all is good, as long as it's what you like |
very very few mains will put out full volume 20 hz bass at the listening position Well, depends what you mean, but room gain is quite powerful. Take a look at what my two-way speakers with a 6.5" woofer can do: https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-snr-1-room-response-and-roon.htmlI’m not saying my speakers’ are exceptional, I’m using them as an example that most audoiphiles don’t know how much bass they have, which then leads them down several paths to disappointment. The -3db point of any speaker is a very poor indicator of how deep bass will go, or how it will be perceived in any given room. Best, Erik |
Meghan Trainor started it. I blame her. |
very very few mains will put out full volume 20 hz bass at the listening position..they are rated -3 db at a few inches away at low volume...I cross my subs over at about 38-40 hz... |
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What hz ranges are normally sent to a sub? Do subs generally do an inferior quality vs a high end main?
i like my 12 inch sub for rumbling effects during a movie but as far as quality, my mains may do better.
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Why? You have your answer: Good bass response transforms a system. Everything from classical to acoustic guitar sounds better. Deeper, wider soundstage.
So true. The problem is we still have lots of people who never heard good bass so have no idea what they're talking about, saying crazy uninformed things like The only recordings to contain subsonic energy are a few digital made since ’85.
Well that's odd, because just the other night I was listening to some Tchaikovsky and at one point the AC or heating or something came on and was clearly heard and felt and you knew that's what it was not anything else and this was recorded something like 50 years before 1985. In fact this sort of low frequency information is on a lot of recordings. Its just everyone has crap bass so they never even know about it. But it is there. On probably the majority of recordings. Its really sad, borderline pathetic, certainly perplexing. Vexing. That's the word. I am vexed. This is not anything new people. Its been around for like 20 years. Dukes been talking about it here for years now. Then Tim, and now me. Nothing new. Do a search - Swarm subwoofer system, Distributed Bass array. Or heck if you're smart do what I did and just go read every single one of Duke's and Tim's posts on the subject. What makes this particularly maddening is everything else in audio takes more money than anyone has to do it right. Bass on the other hand, you can have totally awesome and done right for three grand. Easy. Because unlike speakers its not which ones you buy, but how many. Just buy four subs and see. The soundstage opens up and becomes enveloping. Why? Because much of our sense of space comes from extreme low frequencies. Waves so long they only have room to run in very large spaces. So when we hear them our brains say hey we're in a large space. Like a concert hall. Totally does the trick. Midrange gets clearer, not sure why but probably because now with a proper foundation everything is more in balance. It just sounds right. Wake up, people! Wake the you know what up! Or at least, if you are gonna stay asleep, or keep your head buried firmly in the ground, or put your hands over your ears and go NANANANANA I can't hear you! At least if that's the way you're gonna be keep your old going nowhere last millennium fake news to yourself so people have a chance to learn from the few who actually know what they're talking about. And I for one will be a little less vexed for a change. |
Most recordings contain bass below 60hz which bookshelf speakers cant produce so you must use a subwoofer. This should be mandated by now |
Not as much an " Obsession " as an appreciation. |
Coming up next week “whats the obsession with mids and highs?”.
Bass is 1 of the 3 parts of music, no? How many parts are you interested in? 2 of the 3?
Good bass response transforms a system. Everything from classical to acoustic guitar sounds better. Deeper, wider soundstage. Mids that sound a bit cleaner.
I guess thats why I am obsessed with bass. |
The only recordings to contain subsonic energy are a few digital made since ’85. If that’s not your fetish just ignore. Prior to that the only way to "record" low bass was with control tones: https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2019/07/earthquake-sensurround-cerwin-vegaPretty much just a gimmick. The only other time I ever felt it was with the IRS V’s in Music Room One playing "Thanks To You" I’m sure they’re even stronger with new woofers. If you stick with snalogue, bass to 30 Hz is usually plenty. You certainly don't have to redesign a living space to accommodate more than 2 subs for "perfect" sound on very few demo recordings. |
There are no issues with bass if you know how to properly integrate subs with your main speakers (bookshelves or full range). REL subs allows easy integration for home theater and 2-ch audio from a single sub. Check them out!
Going by all the recent threads you’ve started, may be you’re over thinking audio. It’s really not that complicated to setup a decent hybrid system that’s is equally good at movies and 2-ch audio.
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