WHY IS THERE SO MUCH HATE FOR THE HIGH END GEAR ON AUDIO GEAR?

@uncledemp 

That's an interesting post. Some say there is only one God, but all seem to agree there are many facets to this God, making it difficult to determine precisely where "God" stops and other things start. Take the trinity, for example, or angels or other things that are above man but below something else. There's never just one, single part to it. I'm of the opinion there is no clear line of demarcation describing what is and isn't "God." So you reached out to some part of God, and some part of God reached back, and the message was "try it out for yourself?" If so, that's similar to my experience. The words in my case were more like "I can't make subjective decisions for you. You'll have to decide for yourself what is important to you." 

Many enthusiasts are OCD, and OCD can be prone to outbursts. I have many friends so constructed and have learned to let it roll off of me because I otherwise learn a lot of new things from such folk.

I’m not sure if this is an audio conversation or a philosophical debate. Here’s my take, as unpopular as it may be. I’ve had the means to chase most if not all of the vices I assumed would fulfill me. Probably more voraciously than most. 

This year I reached out to God until He reached back. If you knew me, you would recognize the change is in no way insignificant. Rest feels good. 

If I found a free audio product, car, woman, drug that was a game changer, I’d tell you no doubt. I haven’t, but God is changing my filthy heart. Just like audio, you can read all the reviews, hear all the stories, and follow the popular opinions, but in the end you should try it out for yourself. 
 

Peace

Why do people mistake skepticism for hate?

I have no problem with high end gear. I do, however, have a problem with some of the explanations that are given for why the stuff sounds better, and how the fact that it does sound better is determined. It’s OK to say nobody has a clue, which seems to be the case much of the time. Maybe it’s a trade secret. Maybe it’s some unknown physics. Maybe it really doesn’t sound better in a blind test but works on the mind somehow when you see it and know the story behind it. I’m of the mind that if there’s an audible difference it will be easy to measure if someone gives it a decent effort. Stuff that sounds different measures different. I’ve never experienced anything contrary to that. I'm not talking about how an individual component  measures on a test bench, but the actual results that come out of the speaker from the entire component chain. I'm pretty sure that some components like DACs might measure perfect on the test bench but then do something "interesting" when connected to a pre-amp, which causes the end result coming out of the speaker to be noticeably and measurably different. 

What I'd hope to see from high end gear is a relative freedom from issues like that. My idea of a high end DAC is one that is stable and accurate even into difficult loads, although it shouldn't ever have to see one because it should be hooked up to a good pre. It would also be exemplary for ease of use, good looks, robustness, and reliability. I think a lot of high end gear meets all my requirements. But so does stuff that costs a lot less. So it leaves me scratching my head over why the price gets so high on some of this stuff. It seems there's a little alchemy involved with intentionally going "out of spec." to produce a custom sound. Similarly with coffee, above a certain price point there's no more quality to be gained. You just get into specialty flavors from rarer varieties. Not inherently better, but definitely different. 

@bob540 all great points.  I started in the hobby as a hobbyist. I actually sell gear now but I enjoy the music more than anything else. I looked at some of the responses and some of them are on the nasty side.  I’m ok with that and I’m not complaining about that.  Those that have nasty comments about or think I’m schilling or just trolling I don’t want anything to do with.  I’m past all of that. I’m going to be happy and enjoy the wonderful system I have been blessed with.  

I got back into audio almost 4 years ago, and found and joined this forum shortly after in hopes of learning about all the new things that have come out in the last 40 years.  It has been interesting, but I also found that I am not going to be at the level in this hobby that many others here are.  First, because I only have so much money. Second, because I found long ago that when you are beginning any new hobby that requires expenditures, it is better to balance one’s level of purchases rather than spend a lot on one piece of equipment and skimp on the rest.  My choices are “good enough for me” though less-than for others.

I have been impressed to find all the different brands of equipment, designed in various countries.  I had no idea before that any of these things existed beyond the mass market name brands.  I thought, “I wonder how they knew about that . . to buy that?”   I don’t go to audio stores to sample equipment, and I don’t live in a big city that has much variety.  I assume that some members here learn about these esoteric brands from audio shop owners and by going to audio fests where such equipment is previewed.  

Lastly, I’m practical (and old) enough to know that the things I have enthusiasm for will be different than those interests of loved ones I might leave my equipment to when I die.  They might not care at all about my stereo system — might prefer to listen to their phone and earbuds.  They likely wouldn’t know (or care) what my equipment cost or what they should sell it for when settling my estate.  Thus, even if I could afford to buy some very expensive and exotic equipment, I don’t want to leave the burden to my survivors to try to get the value back out of it.  It would be easy enough for you, or even me, to find out what something is worth and where to list it, but for most people they probably wouldn’t know where to start.  They will already be grieving, I don’t want to add to their burden by having to decide if an offer they receive is fair or a ripoff.

Simplistic argument facing a complex problem...

You forgot those who own costly gear systems in their living room that sound not so much good as it could be even if it seems to sound only marginally better and merely different more than better than a low cost gear system ... ...Go and visit show room too with costly system  ...verify my claim ...

Guess why  this is so ?😊😁

Ignorance does not reveal itself only through poor gear choices at low cost but also with those with 50,000 bucks system ...

Then guess why i am right and that mechanical, electrical and especially acoustical working controls devices matter more than the price tag ?

For sure a 1000 dollars amplifier will not generally work at the acoustical level of a 10,000 bucks one , save for some exception , but an electrical,mechanical and acoustioal controlled environment matter way more than the price tag if we want at least cross over the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold, and this is true for all system at all price  ...

What i say is not in any gear manual owner , guess why ?

😊

it is not good for the business to sell gear that cannot work at their optimal level without  the thinking owner  in the obligation to work and taking care of these three working dimensions , nevermind the gear level and price ..

The seller of costly amplifier or speakers who will reveal that any gear at any price will work imperfectly in a non controlled mechanical,electrical and acoustical environment is not born till this day ...

guess why ?

They want to sell you a perfect plug and play system and convince you at this price tag that you need nothing else than their product for sure ...

Believing this is ignorance , the true ignorance which plague rich as poor owners ...

Acoustics rules audio not price tag ... And if you think that i spoke about acoustic panels here you have understood anything yet...

There are many websites and even here in agon that have many people who think their 20,000 dollars amp and speakers is perfect plug and play and the end of the world and who laugh at people like me owning low cost gear ... the ignorance is not necessarily with people like  me ...

There are many websites like ANA and even here on agon that have people think their $299 stereo amp has the best sq of anything out there or that cables don’t matter. But on those naysayer websites, I’ve questioned them many times about why they are using a pair of $50 cables and not the $.02 cables that come with their components and their replies are always the $50 cables sound better but that’s the cutoff ($50) where you get diminishing returns. You will find audiophools all over.
I also agree with the OP, I also think that people who can’t afford high quality components make excuses like their cheap stuff sounds every bit as good as the expensive stuff or that they are just jealous that people want to get the best sq they can which normally means you have to spend some money. Same goes for everything else in life: homes, cars, art, etc

There are many websites like ANA and even here on agon that have people think their $299 stereo amp has the best sq of anything out there or that cables don’t matter. But on those naysayer websites, I’ve questioned them many times about why they are using a pair of $50 cables and not the $.02 cables that come with their components and their replies are always the $50 cables sound better but that’s the cutoff ($50) where you get diminishing returns. You will find audiophools all over. 
I also agree with the OP, I also think that people who can’t afford high quality components make excuses like their cheap stuff sounds every bit as good as the expensive stuff or that they are just jealous that people want to get the best sq they can which normally means you have to spend some money. Same goes for everything else in life: homes, cars, art, etc

@cdc simply because someone said I could and shouldn’t.  I will not do it again but I had some interesting responses. Anyway.  THIS IS AMERICA! 

@knock1 music is. I do this for the music.  When people try to say I do it to sell gear I get agitated because it’s disrespectful to me and the music. Lol. I enjoy listening as much as I can. When I retire 3-4 hours a day minimum. Lol 

@calvinj

Why did you use all caps in the title of this thread?

@calvinj  Music is the soundtrack to life.

What a great line!

@barts right, I wasn't there, I could be totally wrong. 

@grislybutter 

Honestly I don't see how it says anything about me.  I was driving a buddy's car on a pleasant afternoon (he was in the passenger seat).  I was polite, he was not. Maybe I didn't describe the situation clearly enough, I guess you just had to be there. If you can read more into it than that I have no answer for you.

"Your assumptions say more about you than him". Not from my perspective.

Regards,

barts

@kairosman i agree with you as well. I have seen the negativity rise again and again. I left audiogon a few years ago because of the the rudeness. The nastiness that has nothing to do with the question I asked.  It becomes personal real quick. No worries I will not be posting in this subject again.  But reading some of the responses.  Learned a lot about different audiophiles.  Their thought processes. Which ones that I care to have discourse with. Which ones I don’t.   People that don’t know you and your journey and how they will make assumptions about you and why you post.  The crazy part is most of us are are 40,50,60,70 years old and don’t understand how to interact with grown men and women who are in our hobby.   Learned a whole lot.  There are those who I enjoy talking to.  Then there are those who take it personal.   If you reading this and you got a problem with what I post. Do what I do. Keep scrolling.  Be happy! 

@calvinj although I agree with you, given the negative reactions to your innocuous post, as a dealer and therefore someone who can be characterized as biased and/or self-interested (probably unfairly), it is best to refrain from making a similar post in the future here. Envy/spite is rampant across the internet as other have mentioned, and even when a social commentary post like yours is not directed at an individual, anyone who has ever posted out of envy/spite is going to unconsciously pick a fight with you - on some level no one likes to be reminded (even indirectly) that he is not a baller. As for envy/spite, the ballers laugh their asses off at the haters not just on hifi but houses cars chicks jets yachts art etc. Either you're a baller or you're not, better to live with the fact than roil/baste in self-loathing.

@everyone the journey is different for all of us.  Some of us in the high end.  Some of us arriving at a system and being completely pleased with whatever equipment you can afford. Enjoy what you have and get back into the music. 

@dekay reading the reply is exactly why I made the post and how people make legitimate post personal or they turn it into it being about selling smthg etc. I left audiogon a few years ago because of this reason.  I’m posting about it because I wonder.  Take care. 

@barts I don't see your point. There could be many reasons other than envy for his comment. It could be the opposite, he was very happy with his Camry and didn't need a Ferrari to feel good about himself. You asked him. Or maybe he just tried to sound witty. Your assumptions say more about you than him. 

A buddy of mine is very wealthy and his stereo is a boom box, I needled him in the past about that and he just says that is all he really needs.

He owns several high end cars, the usual suspects.  We were out in one of the Ferraris and got caught in a traffic jam.  The guy in the next lane is staring at the car so I say "Hey, how you doin'?".  He comes back with (sneeringly)  "Better than you are!".  So I ask "Why is that?".  He replies "Because I'm ahead of you and your half million dollar car!"  And he was...going 2 mph in his Camry he had me by a bumper.  I just smiled.

He may have been beat to much as a pup.  

Envy is a terrible vice.

Regards,

barts

Much of the time I suspect that the "hate" is directed more towards the person posting about the HE gear and not the gear itself (especially some repetitive posters with a single brand, or two, that they relentlessly post about).

Then there are the posters who systematically "hate" EVERY HE thread with some having their on niche (cables for example).

DeKay

I couldn't care less about who has what, whether it's more than all I spent on cars in 4 decades. What bugs me is the attitude. Which has been discussed 100s of times, nothing new to see here...

not to mention the bottle of Scotch that sold for $2.1 Million yesterday...certainly high end audio is a tiny little world in a huge economic/social/political...

@firstonetallguy and our wives will go and spend 2,3,4,5 hundred or more on a purse and justify it. 

I pretty much think the same as you ...

The goal of audio thread for me the first one goal is to partake ideas about the way to reach a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold at the best cost ...

Bragging about high end gear is useless ...

Even high end gear need to be embed in the right mechanical, electrical and acoustical conditions anyway ...

The cost of a system dont matter . the goal must be optimize  what you own ...

Price tags dont matter , acoustics science matter if we want to reach the best with what we have or with what we must purchase   at the lowest possible cost ...

@mahgister i researched the hell out of every component speaker and sub in my system using the knowledge that I gained in this hobby over the years. For example my Gato speakers were designed by a former senior designer at gamut. I researched them to the hilt. Say that they were similar to a speaker twice the cost. Realized he designed that speaker for another company as well I ordered it. 9 years later still my reference. My amps and Dac have design elements that have zero noise floor and implement design elements to provide power and limit distortion at every turn. I was the ear for the cabling that we use at the company. So even though the system is expensive I just didn’t pick stuff because it was expensive but it met the design and performance elements that I sought. I have room challenges so it needed to perform in my conditions and it does that well. It’s not about what you spend. Design, performance, environments, personal tastes and equipment matching are all important. Truth of the matter is some of the higher end equipment build quality and design lows it to achieve things sonically that most other equipment just can’t reach. However you can still get pleasing sound out of a well put together system without spending a crazy amount of money.

This is an alleged conversation overheard at an electronics store in the Mall.

“Honey, look at what they want to charge for that stereo equipment.  Isn’t that just ridiculous?  They are just a bunch of thieves hoping to sell a few units and get rich.  No way could cost it that much to make stereo stuff.

But dear, it does sound nice and looks pretty.

Yeah, but it is way too expensive.  My system sounds just as good as theirs and I did not spend anywhere near that much for that junk.

Our system sounds nice, dear, but this does sound a little better.

No, it doesn’t.  You are just hearing things.  And even if it is better, it costs sooo much more which just proves how greedy these people are.  
A lot of this stuff is just snake oil.  They lie to you about what all that stuff does when it is just electricity and sound waves.  Ridiculous.
They build stuff that only the rich people can buy.  It is not fair.  There should be some way that no one can charge this much so everyone can get what they want.  It is just not fair.  
Look at how much those speakers cost.  I could buy a new car for that.
Look at how much they charge for those wires, $2000.  That is asinine.

Now dear, you are letting your blood pressure get too high.  Maybe, we should just leave.  I need to go to the grocery store, we are nearly out of cigarettes, beer and ice cream.  

Not yet, I want to look at the new 90" OLED TVs.  

Why do you want to look at those?  We just got a nice 65" TV 3 years ago.  These large TVs are sooo expensive and really not worth it.

Honey, sure they are.  Just look at the image; it is gorgeous.”  
 

@audioman58 love your post.  Truth! 

@jimmyblues1959 +1

@mteetank great post. I’m laughing 😂! At the end of the day. I enjoy my system and the music. Music is the soundtrack to life. 

@campoly a few years ago I left the forums because of the snarky comments about high end gear.  I didn’t put a lot of stock in the peoples comments but when trying to discuss it on forums it devolved into personal attacks or people are idiots to spend a lot of money on gear.  People think I’m trolling because if this post and others.  The reason why I post on this topic because it went back to the reason I left in the first place.  I used to have great conversation about gear, systems and tweaks as I grew in the hobby as was able to afford the higher priced gear. Then when I discussed higher priced gear on Audiogon in particular.  I saw the snide comments.  I don’t care about the comments but it would destroy the reasonable legitimate conversation and listening experiences of the folks that were interested. I’m more agitated that it destroyed serious discourse and conversation more than anything. 

@riccitone the beauty of this hobby is that we build a system and try to get premium performance sometimes without paying premium price.  You wanna maximize your dollar and performance. My speakers for instance perform well with the higher priced gear that I have but I bought them because if the research I did and they fit my tastes. There will always be trade offs and tastes preferences.  

@rcm1203 i agree.  I go to WBF and because the guys there spend more I literally had a guy that was in here and there tell me what I wouldn’t do or say they there. It just wreaked of uppityness there.  One of the most knowledgeable audiophiles I know has a modest system that just sounds amazing. He is happy and enjoys it.  That’s all it should be about in the first place. 

@mahgister i researched the hell out of every component speaker and sub in my system using the knowledge that I gained in this hobby over the years. For example my Gato speakers were designed by a former senior designer at gamut. I researched them to the hilt. Say that they were similar to a speaker twice the cost.  Realized he designed that speaker for another company as well I ordered it. 9 years later still my reference. My amps and Dac have design elements that have zero noise floor and implement design elements to provide power and limit distortion at every turn. I was the ear for the cabling that we use at the company. So even though the system is expensive I just didn’t pick stuff because it was expensive but it met the design and performance elements that I sought.  I have room challenges so it needed to perform in my conditions and it does that well.  It’s not about what you spend.  Design, performance, environments, personal tastes and equipment matching are all important.  Truth of the matter is some of the higher end equipment build quality and design lows it to achieve things sonically that most other equipment just can’t reach.  However you can still get pleasing sound out of a well put together system without spending a crazy amount of money.  

If it was earned through good, honest work and/or innovation rather then inheritance, I have never felt inclined to begrudge a wealthy person their prosperity. They were willing to work a lot harder than I ever cared to, so they deserve to reward themselves by spending it any way they choose. That being said, I also don't believe that the amount spent on gear qualifies one to  consider themselves more of an audiophile then us lower tier folks. That's like telling someone in an argument to scream louder because it makes them 'more right'. 

I'd offer that life is fair. By the time you are old enough to afford the high price gear, your hearing has usually degraded to the point that you can't enjoy it anyway. Or maybe that's unfair. I'll have to look at my wine glass and see if it's half full or half empty.

"At the weekly gathering of Royalty, there was a lively discussion as to why the Peasants speak ill of them..."

riccitone, well said!

Exactly and well said ...Thanks riccitone and welcome...

Those that know, simply know. Those that notice and listen closely (or those that know how to listen into the music) get it. In the end, all this is actually a good problem. A clear reflection of our time, in that it is now actually possible to assemble a really decent system for around 2k - hell, even 1k. 
 

But that does not in any way negate the truth in what you’re saying. Well made components from top to bottom still sound exceptional and unique. Personally, I’m that mid-fi guy looking for deals and researching -trying where I can - for synergy. But if it wasn’t for hi end offerings, equipment that is art+science+soul through and though, then all other companies would have nothing for which to strive and compare. 

Dissing high end audio is stupid...high end gear are just more refined and more effective design ...

We can criticize price but i am incompetent to do so really ...

We can as i did observe that there is a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold , and we can cross this threshold with relatively low prices component studying acoustics and controlling vibrations and the noise floor level ...

We cannot reach top acoustic satisfaction treshold with a low cost system ... At best we  learn how to  go nearer to it with some other low cost component  ... thats all ...

I learned how to be happy with what i have by optimizing all the gear  working conditions ...

Those who are ignorant feel envy or live in denial and frustration  or believe in price tags or believe that their system work optimally when it really did not because they were able to afford high end but without  being able to understand how to use it in optimal conditions ...

Acoustics concepts and electrical and mechamical embeddings controls rules over anything ...

Sorry for the bad news ...

Be happy with what you have, learn how to work with it to reach an optimal level commensurate with the gear design quality level...It will not be high end maximum acoustic satisfaction threshold for sure but the minimal satisfaction threshold is already a paradise ...

Happiness dont measure in dollars , and can be engineered by your own creativity ...Develop yours BEFORE upgrading ...

I think I’m a bit confused. Who and where are these people that are “dissing” high end audio? I guess I don’t spend enough time here (and other forums) to see it . Are we talking about the internet at large? 
 

But I tell ya, you don’t have to look very far to find folks “dissing” other folks’  “mid-fi”. Double edged sword may apply here in this case.

I lust for “high end” gear as much as the next guy (although some may not admit it) but I buy what I can afford, modest as it is, and am thankful for it. I do love hearing other folks’ high end systems and also reading about there high end adventures. 

I've been in this enjoyable hobby for nearly 50 years now and I've yet to tire of it because the hobby is about getting us closer to the music we love. 

Audio is very subjective. Lots of differing opinions on how much one should spend on a system.  The bottom line is that we all have different budgets and should trust our own ears above all else when it comes to putting an audio system together. 

Happy Holidays! 😊👍

I don't diss high gear. I rather  spend some of that dough on the room. But of course that doesn't feed the pockets of an audio dealer.

It's the first deadly sin: Pride. "I'm better than you so how can you have anything better than I have?' Clearly you cannot, therefore do not. 

Greed:  "I want what's mine- even if you think it's yours" 

Lying: to themselves and others about what they are, want and have. With a hearty eff you thrown in for good measure.

Anger: See above Eff you. 

First and foremost is you are dealing with MEN. "My cables bigger than your cable". With many years of marriage to the right woman along with having wonderful daughters I became a human being. OP, you are dealing with the same problem women face on any topic, men are annoying and eventually resort to all caps. :>) 

I'm a aerospace engineer working with a bunch of electrical engineers. I trust them that they know what they are doing. When it comes to audio gear, I asked them why two things (tubes or say capacitors) with exactly the same measured electrical values sound different.  They smiled at me and said, "We are engineers. We can only measure what we can measure, but sometimes that isn't the whole story". 

If the people at ASR measure something they think that is the Bible, but not really. It is only the beginning. 

People generally are jealous of those who can afford high end gear at whatever price point they consider that to be.  Then they want to rationalize that their gear sounds at least as good or 95% as good at 1/2 the price.  In a few cases they might be right. But we all know that *sometimes* you do get more for your money. 

My system is about $15K now (soon to be $20K next year) and that is the limit I can comfortably spend, but would I love to have a $100K system.  Hell yeah!  I simply say, more power to you and enjoy. Life is short. Jealousy is a waste of time. 

I believe the 'hate' is more to being uninformed or worse...  I am not wiling to pay stratospheric prices (e.g. $10K network streamers, $10K speakers etc) but I have no issue with people willing to pay that. It's their own monies.   This is called the FREE MARKET at work.  No different that cars that cost $40K vs $400K and up...  

While I am impressed with the myriad of gear available and it's advancements in audio sound I can't bring myself to pay these abhorrent prices for so little gain. I'm in my middle 60's with substantial hearing loss due to listening for years at high volumes. I have dabbled for decades in audiophile equipment, but honestly, can't hear the difference between a $2000 AVR and $10000 in separates and I've owned both. The difference between $1500 bookshelves with a good sub and $5-10 thousand towers is so minute it doesn't justify the cost. I'll stick to my Marantz Cinema AVR with Kef and B&W speakers and be extremely happy with the result. The rest of you keep posting and I'll keep reading. Thanks for the hours of enjoyment

Pardon me for not taking out a 2nd on a home I don't own....😏

I don't hate mega$ audio items at all; 'pushing the envelope' is pretty much expected in any serious ventures.  Look at SpaceX, they just lost not only a booster (I think the 'hot' option in stage separation is not a great concept...imho, but I'm not a rocket scientist, and will applaud if it can be made to work....but would likely say 'no' to a free ride for the foreseeable....) but the spacecraft itself.

But that's how Musk & Co. go....

As for personal audio, I'm essentially pleased and OK with my 'junk'.

It makes pleasant noises to my ears, as f'd up as they are.

You're more than welcome to come on down for a sess, given that any rudeness will be tolerated for as long as you might expect.

"I don't like it." will be enough, but will require some detailed observations.

Meanwhile...'run what you brung'....