ozzy,
This piqued my curiosity so I found this article about graphene and thought I would share. I think everything on the web should carry a date so you can easily put it in context but as close as I can tell this is from about 2012. I have heard about graphene in the past and I too was curious about when viable products may hit the market. Thanks for the information on Cerious cables!
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Graphene is around one atom in thickness. So one naturally wonders how it would be used in cables. |
That's my question as well. At least it's strong!
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Speaker cables: 10 gauge copper/silver conductors woven around carbon fiber, then injected with Graphene saturated Liquid Ceramic to fill every gap and void, apparently quite doable when the product is one atom thick.....whew!
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I found pictures on the web as to how these cables are assembled, very involved looks quite tedious. If I can find it again I'll post the link. |
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So one assumes the Graphene functions as an RFI/EMI shield/absorber....?
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I think it is part of the conductive signal. |
ozzy i was the one who posted that on What's Best thanks for linking it, I have no affiliation with Cerious either just a satisfied customer. Bob Grost sent me that pdf after I ordered his speaker cables in case I was curious about how they are made. I originally started out with the prior Nano-Reference cables, Bob closed a bunch out here as he was about to release the Graphene line and I picked up a pair of interconnects and was very impressed. I subsequently bought a bunch of his Nano Signature power cables after buying my first and finally hearing a power cable that seemed to make an appreciable difference. I've since them upgraded to the Graphene's I have pretty much a full loom except for one Nirvana digital cable I'm still using. I really think these are great sounding cables and with Bob's direct to consumer pricing, a really excellent value. Plus he's been great to deal with, he has on two separate occasions reterminated cables for me at no charge. I highly recommend anyone giving Cerious cables a try.
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Graphene cables are being well received so far as being several steps up in performance...and for not much cash. I've so far seen from other makers (but, have not yet tried) solid designs and even one that uses powdered Graphene and now liquid-delivered...interesting, particularly the IC's, for me. Thanks for the heads up! |
Cool product. Would love to try. |
"Speaker cables: 10 gauge copper/silver conductors woven around carbon fiber, then injected with Graphene saturated Liquid Ceramic to fill every gap and void, apparently quite doable when the product is one atom thick.....whew!"
I hate to judge too quickly but it appears the 10 gauge copper/silver conductors are the conductor and the Graphene saturated liquid ceramic is the RFI/EMI shield. If Graphene were the conductor then one would expect the Graphene saturated Liquid Ceramic to be used in place of the copper silver, no? Try ceramic material might act as a vibration damper. Quite clever. |
The wire is called the "backbone" conductor. Take a look at the link that is provided. |
The poured (Graphene saturated Liquid Ceramic) conductor is referred to as the "secondary conductor" explained in the link as Ozzy says.
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Right, the secondary conductor is the RFI shield. RFI shields are characterized by high conductivity. Like Graphene. |
I bought a Nano Reference power cord on sale from Robert and really liked it. I then decided to try the Graphene Extreme digital cable. I used to switch off all the time between my Darwin Digital cable and my LAT International. That ended the day I started using the Graphene. If it gets better than this, I'd love to hear it.
I am completely satisfied, Robert is a great guy, and I want the speaker cables now. |
roxy54, The speaker cables are great! And I needed a 4 meter double run for my Bi-wired Eggleston Andra ll's speakers. And I must add that the power cords also are very good. He sells different power cords for different applications. Such as for Digital, Amps etc. Heck, even the Digital AES/XLR cable is much better than my previous cable. Once I completed the loom and put some time on the cables everything locked into place. geoffkait, I'm not going to continue the debate on the purpose of the graphene, assume what you may, my message however is in the sound quality. |
Ozzy, if Graphene were being used as a signal conductor doesn’t it make sense that they would have used Graphene for the Backbone conductor, not copper/silver? If you Google Graphene you will see it’s primary use is in shielding RFI/EMI. And the reason is because of it’s extremely high conductivity. Graphene cannot be used as a Backbone Conductor (I.e., for the signal) because Graphene is by definition only one atom thick. That is a problem because it won’t support the current or the voltage involved. It will, however, support RFI/EMI. Also, since the Graphene powder is embedded in the ceramic it is not continuous and thus cannot be used to carry signal. In addition, ceramic is an insulator not a conductor. Thus, if they were trying to carry signal on the Secondary conductor they would be kind of shooting themselves in the foot.
cheers,
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I have not seen any advertisement of anyone using graphene in audio products for its noise shielding capabilities. Conductivity in general seems to be the attraction.
Also no mention so far I can find of its use in wires for audio or any other purpose other than vendor marketing literature.
Main projected use in electronics appears to be use in semi-conductors and other apps where its apparent power delivery limitations are not a factor.
Still it is an interesting proposition to use more highly conductive materials in traditional applications. Time will tell. Almost all marketing claims alone can be taken with at least one grain of salt.
This is an interesting product as described nonetheless. Would love to be able to give a test run if not too expensive. I can see where its mixed use with other more traditional materials capable of delivering power and current needed might reap some benefit but not sure . Use of graphene in actual applications today seems to be on the rise but I wonder how cost prohibitive it might be for many apps still. High end audio is always ripe marketing ground for these things regardless.
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mapman, thanks for your posting. I wonder how the SR cables are made? They claim to use graphene in there design, albeit at much higher prices. geoffkait, You may be right, I just don't know, sorry. I do have to give Bob Grost from Cerious Technologies credit for thinking outside the box in his approach to making cables. I will also add that I had the Bybee Signal Enhancers sitting on top of my previous speaker cables. But, with these new Graphene Extremes the Bybee's sort of took away some of the sound quality, so I removed them. There must be some interaction between the Bybee's design and the Graphene Extremes. Very interesting... |
Ozzy,
how does the Cerious power cords stack up against the Mad Scientist PC? I remember your review of the NEO was quite enthusiastic.
Lance
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lancelock, The NEO is again one of those cable makers that think outside the box. But, I ended up selling most of them. I prefer to have a complete set of the same cables. Even my highly regarded HiDiamond cables couldn't compete. |
The actual making of Graphene and even the cost is not really an issue. Anyone can do it. It’s the app-li-ca-tion that’s the difficult part to come up with. Kinda like quantum dots, if I may be so bold. |
Ozzy, exactly which Cerious Technologies power cords are you using?
On Bob's website it looks like there is only the Nano power cord. Is that the one or are there others? |
The web page is confusing. Choose the Graphene cables section. There should be about 3-4 different types. |
I just looked at the web page. It doesn't describe the different power cables much. There are; Digital, Hi power and Low power analog and a Power Conditioner cord. You probably need to send an email or call Bob. |
ozzy-
what gear is in your system? |
jafant, My system should be listed on Audiogon. But, the short version is: Pass Labs X350.5 Amp PS Direct Stream dac PS P-10 Power conditioner Bryston BDP-2 usb player BSG QOL JL Audio F113 subs Eggleston Works Andra 2 speakers |
I am Bob Grost from Cerious. Just wanted to clear some things up! Graphene is used in our cables as part of a complex composite conductor. Whenever you have multiple strands in a conductor electrons will stay "attached" to a single strand until you get a transient which has significant energy and the electron will then "jump" from strand to strand. This is how semiconductors works. There are 2 problems here. The first is that this characteristic causes time smear which gives the cable differing properties with amplitude. In simple terms the cable behaves one way with quiet music and another with loud music. The second problem is that music is ALL transients. In real world cases virtually all "standard" cables (even those that are $10,000 a set...) behave one way for the melody line and another for ambient fields that are 25 db quieter than the main instrument. This leads to "Audiophile sound" where the ambient wave is clearly heard as a separate signal. For years this was thought to be a positive aspect of high level systems because it showed their "resolving" power.
In live music, however, the ambient element is PART OF the main field. It is EXPERIENCED, not HEARD. The Audiophile experience was limited to hearing that the stand up Bass in the trio can be clearly heard that it SHOULD be 15 feet back in the image - because you can hear the ambient wave clearly - even though it is only experienced 5 feet behind the plane of the speakers as a musical experience. Not only is this not realistic, but causes stress as your brain is telling you two different realities about the same sonic event in real time. Graphene Extreme cables allow you to experience the stand up Bass as a consistent sonic event that is 15 feet behind the plane of the speakers as the main signal and its ambient field have identical sonic properties.
How is the Graphene used? Graphene particles are flooded into each conductor and then the Teflon jacket is heated to shrink the jackets forcing the particles into every minute gap and seam. Where there was a gap of air before between strands in the conductor there is now Graphene! The cable no longer behaves as a semiconductor because there is no air gap any longer. The conductor behaves like a single strand conductor, only it is linear to 4 Gigahertz...We produce the Graphene ourselves in house to control costs. Hope this helped!
BG |
Bob Grost, thanks for your input here, very interesting. I do not see any prices on your website for the various graphene cables and whether you offer a trial audition period? I, for one, would be interested in auditioning some of your products depending on relative price points. |
Interesting stuff. Thanks!
Its so nice to have a vendor actually jump in and help people understand whats going on with their products in these threads rather than leave it mostly up to people’s imagination. I appreciate that!!!!
Currently I use DNM Reson ICs. The more conventional single strand approach there seems to make things sound more "coherent" to me compared to others. I wonder if similar principles at play there, sans Graphene? I tried them initially just to hear what I call a "minimalist" single strand approach would sound like compared to others and no others have weaned me off since.
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Mapman, knowledge is what's left after you subtract the stuff you forgot from school.
;-) |
@rgrost Thanks for jumping in Bob I know how busy you are these days! And the Graphene digital was a great addition!
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I agree; thank you for the explanation Bob, and thank you Ozzy for the website direction.
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ozzy:
Congratulations on the major upgrade to your system. I do think the proper implementation of Graphene in an audio system is now making a major advance in the quality of sound. But I predict in tthe near future it will be misused by many "manufacturers" as they jump on the Graphene band wagon to generate sales. I found that a SR Black fuse in the QOL unit improves the sound. I found that interesting.
Bob Grost:
Thank you for posting on your approach to building cables, and how graphene may be improving the sound. And a major thank you for being a manufacturer who offers a 30 day evaluation of your products.
David Pritchard
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Davidpritchard wrote,
" But I predict in tthe near future it will be misused by many "manufacturers" as they jump on the Graphene band wagon to generate sales."
Uh, oh. I'm getting a real bad feeling.
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ozzy, how does Cerious Technologies compare to HiDiamond? I had a full loom of SR and all the wires are a PITA! |
knghifi, Well, I had at one time a full loom of the Top of the line SR cables.($$$). I think it was the Tesla and Apex series with the upgraded galileo couplers as such. Then I moved to a complete loom of HiDiamond cables, what a relief to get rid of all those extra SR wires. Then, I had a mixture of HiDiamond and the MAD Scientists NEO power cords. Each step in my opinion improved the sound quality. Now, the Graphene Extremes are the best yet! David, I have replaced all my fuses with the SR black. |
I have been trying to communicate with Bob Grost about purchasing some Cerious cables. Both email addresses online came back as undeliverable. Of two phone numbers, the one in Michigan was disconnected, and I left a message for the one in AZ. Does anyone have a valid phone and email address for Mr. Grost? Is Cerious still in business? Thanks in advance.
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kavakat1 this addy has worked for me rgrost@cerioustechnologies.com plus you can message Bob through the Audiogon system just click on his name in this thread.
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Bob from Cerious again! Are we in business? I hope so considering I am working 16 hour days. We got 127 emails today. rgrost@cerioustechnologies.com and 623-703-9771. Running behind in returning calls will get to that Saturday! Be patient my son... |
Haha just wait until he calls you grasshopper! ;)
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Bob's Graphene cables are the real deal and well worth the wait! |
Now this is how the system's supposed to work!
Queries, positive, first hand experience, direct response from manufacturer, and then an overload of the system.
Good luck Bob!
All the best,
Nonoise |
Guys,
Bob and I have exchanged several emails within two days answering all my questions with humor. I am going to stack up on his cables before the prices go up...just waiting for the boss' (wifee) approval. I dad to justify (lie) that these are from another planet although I haven't heard them. I hope I am not disappointed.
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This thread has piqued my interest and I may want to dip my toe into graphene. I had the Nano Ref SC before, nice but they weren't keepers then.
The idea of dealing with a small company here in the US is also very appealing, I have great experiences with the likes of PAD, Silent Source, CH Acoustic, etc.
Ozzy, comparing the HD cables (I have/had, a.o. the P4 PC and D8 SC) vs Graphene Extreme, which type (speaker, power) stands more out?
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Bob Grost ...
16 hour days? Well, that's one of the advantages of being in business for yourself ... you get to work as many hours as you want to. *lol*
OP |
I see that Bob now has two ads posted on Audiogon regarding his graphene extreme power cables. The description written really helps the consumer understand the difference between the two power cords.
In my opinion, well worth a try for new technology.
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rgrost, what's the difference between Extreme PC Conditioner and
Extreme PC HC? Which one is higher current? I assume
Extreme PC Conditioner? |
jazzonthehudson, That’s a good question. I cant really say. I started with the interconnects, then speaker cables, power cables and then the digital. The interconnects didn’t seem to take much break in time, while the power cords did. My advise is to first try one at your current weakest link. knghifi, I tried the power cable Conditioner on my PS Audio P-10, but I actually preferred it on my BSG QOL an analog piece of equipment. The HC power cord is a heavier gauge than the rest so it should be used on high current equipment. (such as my Pass Labs amp) |
