Allison and Snell. The most even bass response is from having woofers near the boundaries of two surfaces (wall and floor). This also applies to subwoofers.
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klipsch and others do this as their approach, but it is like everything a tradeoff. If the speaker is designed for this boundary reinforcement then it will probably sound better used this way. It does affect more than bass response alone however. Placement close to a wall means early reflections that must be controlled lest they interfere with imaging. Search around see how many comments you find raving about the great holographic imaging of anyone's speakers that are right next to a wall. Whether designed for that or not they just aren't there. So that is one tradeoff they make. That's why there's so many different speakers. Maybe you like that tradeoff more than others. Then great, that's why they did it that way. Or maybe you don't. All that means is they didn't build it for you. |
Boundary reinforcement issues can be addressed by taking them into account in the design stage. So can coloration due to wrap-around reflection energy (by using directional speakers, like the aforementioned Klipsch). The remaining issue is soundstage depth. One technique which results in good soundstage depth is flush-mounting the speakers. This is often done by high-end recording studios. Precision to 1/8" or better is required, but the result is zero early reflections off that wall, so no corresponding cues are superimposed atop the soundstage on the recording. Note that most "in-wall" speakers have reflective and/or diffractive features which betray the presence of the wall. Another is to design the enclosure to effectively blend into the wall, so that acoustically it’s like a "bump" on the wall. The midrange/tweeter module of the (sadly discontinued) Snell Type A fits this description, and its downward-firing woofer was close enough to the wall and floor to interact benignly with both of them. There is another technique for getting soundstage depth with against-the-wall placement which I use in some of my designs. They work better with some spacing, but still imo better than most without. If anyone is curious I’ll describe. Duke |
Surprised there's been no mention of Larsen, one of the very few specifically (re)designed their models for operation right next to walls. Audio Note also comes to mind as a speaker that favors close to wall/corner positioning. 90% of pics of systems in rooms that I see, I want to pull the speakers further out into the room, often vetoed because of WAF. |
it’s about speakers designed for/actual ’room response accuracy’ rather than ’echo-less chamber accuracy’, you can publish results from this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_chamber you cannot publish in-room responses, it’s a gamble how they will sound in your room size/shape/furnishings/surfaces sealed speakers or rear/side/front ports, passive radiators ... speakers specifically designed for any combo of wall/floor/corner boost as others have mentioned. Monster Klipschorns were rear-ported big time, designed and specifically positioned to use the corner as the final part of the ’horn’, clever. They were ’seriously’ toed-in. .................................................. I prefer non-ported speakers designed for away from corners, toed in; tilted back for: time alignment and to project tweeter to seated ear height toe-in and tilt provides non-parallel to floors/ceilings/side walls, avoiding too soon or too strong reflections. I like heavy speakers on 3 wheels, allows pushing into corners to get them out of the way, move out to pre-determined location (marks on floor), then choose specific toe-in for the recording being played. adjust toe-in for wider center when listening with a friend. you cannot do that with speakers designed for specific nearby surface reinforcement, and adjustable toe-in, if possible, will be a curious mix of ______? |
People place their speakers up against the wall mainly because the speakers (several models) were designed to be used that way. Other people do it because their wives demand it as an ultimatum for the continuance of their marriage. It’s called the WAF or Wife Acceptance Factor, which basically means it’s much more important that she be happy than you. |
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Mine are near the wall and one in a corner and i had a complete holographic sound in my 2 listening positions with a sound completely encompassing me and detached from the speakers locations... Why ? Is it the magic of my speakers design ? No they are good but not the absolute best there is.... It is active acoustic controls.... Because passive room treatment does not cancel the bad topology of the room but active controls can.... I know i create my own devices to do so right now for the last one, today, also at peanuts costs.... But anyway nobody will believe that, i dont believe it myself, except when i listen to my music like i do now...And nobody can come and listen to it... I only wrote this post to give hopes to some who dont have any money and dream about Hi-FI.... Try listening experiments and create your own devices.... My ideas are free to pick on my thread ..... :) |
Gradient Revolution: https://www.gradient.fi/en/loudspeakers/5-gradient-revolution.html |
The farther your drivers, especially woofers, are from any wall or surface, the better. Booming low frequencies are impossible to absorb. Low frequencies are omnidirectional. Ever heard of ASC Tube Traps? They are the only product that absorb bass. And they ain't cheap. A 60Hz 15 inch trap is about $800. And you need 4 of them. My B&W Nautilus 802's would make any Klipsch sound like a Klipsch. The only worse sounding speaker was/is the Bose 901 Series III. Crappy sounding headphones too. When Nelson Pass was with Threshold he designed The Acoustic Shadows. Round circular units behind your loudspeakers. Had an mic and would play the low end out of phase. Lot of trouble to get rid of booming bass. Cost $2,000 in 1978. |
I was 15 and a audio shop in Denver called ListenUp bought a truckload of Klipsh Heresy's and told the sales guys to dump them. I even put industrial 12in woofs in them. Couldn't buy a below 60Hz note from them. Do you think David Wilson would sell such crap? Had an Apt 100W amp and nothing. Buy B&W or Theil or Vanderstein or Martin Login or Rockport or Wilson Audio Specializes. Pass amplifiers won't hurt... |
chrismini: "
Ever heard of ASC Tube Traps? They are the only product that absorb bass. And they ain't cheap. A 60Hz 15 inch trap is about $800. And you need 4 of them." Hello chrismini, There's a better solution for about the exact price of 4 ASC Tube Traps ($3,200). It's called the Audio Kinesis Swarm distributed bass array (DBA) system,it was mentioned earlier on this thread and it's a much more elegant solution than bass traps. It provides near sota bass performance in virtually any domestic sized room and integrates seamlessly with virtually any pair of main speakers, regardless of main speaker type (dynamic, planar-magnetic or electrostatic). The Swarm requires absolutely no mics,room correction software or hardware, parametric equalization or bass room treatment absorbers but all of these can be utilized with the Swarm if preferred. I've used this system in my room and system for over 5 yrs now and can verify the Absolute Sound review of this system linked below is a very accurate description of what to expect in one's room and system. https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ Tim |
I would like to know how many of us follow the "rule of thirds"? As I'm sure you already know the speakers "should be" a third of the way into the room as well as listening position a third from back wall. This is untenable in my music room as it is only 18' deep. I'm not into near-field listening. So, what is a more reasonable (actually attainable) rule? Yes, I know use your ears! I'm simply asking what other A'goners have used as a starting point and where did they end up? Thanks for your input. Regards, Barts |
There's a better solution for about the exact price of 4 ASC Tube Traps ($3,200). It's called the Audio Kinesis Swarm distributed bass array (DBA) system,it was mentioned earlier on this thread and it's a much more elegant solution than bass traps. It provides near sota bass performance in virtually any domestic sized room and integrates seamlessly with virtually any pair of main speakers, regardless of main speaker type (dynamic, planar-magnetic orI have the DEBRA which is basically the same as SWARM. As Noble mentioned, it entirely got rid of the bass problems in my room. I went through subwoofer or no sub and tried up to 2 subs, but this is the ticket people! Best money I spent on my system so far. |
Yes, Larsen speakers are designed to go right against the front wall. Unlike Klipschorns and Audio Note speakers, they do not have to be placed in symmetrical corners providing far more flexibility. Bass response always surprises everyone that hears them. I have large room that I've tried several dozen very high quality speakers in over forty years. I finally have found total satisfaction with a pair of Larsen 8.2 speakers. I hope to be able to afford a pair of Larsen 9 speakers one day. |
It all depends on the speaker. I’ve heard the Wilson Tiny Tots up against the wall and they sounded fantastic. If your speakers are rear ported, you want them to breathe, if they are front ported, then you have options. I have large floor standing speakers and they are 7’ from the wall behind them. No matter where you place the speakers, you are always going to have reflection issues: 1st reflection, 2nd reflection, ceiling and floor. All reflections should be dealt with. ASC aren’t the only vendor that makes bass traps. I use both ASC and GIK bass traps. Check out both of these companies plus acoustic field and others. |
Who puts speakers against a wall? People who live in real houses and live real lives! Three cheers for Larsen. Have you heard them? They are designed to put out a quarter hemisphere of sound. I heard them first at CES a few years ago. Walking by the open door of the hotel room, they sounded wonderful. If I placed speakers "three feet from the side walls and at least 30 inches from the back wall," I couldn't get to my front door. Speakers have to live with us, not us with them. You can hang oriental rugs, curtains, your wardrobe on the wall behind the speakers. Space them an inch off the wall. It's nice to have a dedicated listening room, but some of us can't afford it. Keep listening! |
Interesting article on this topic: https://sonicscoop.com/2017/12/14/the-1-speaker-placement-tip-speaker-manuals-get-completely-wrong/ |
I've heard the Larsen loudspeakers, which are engineered to be put up against a wall. They're intended for those with room decoration issues that require this. They sound pretty good, but be aware that their imaging is a little 2 dimensional. I certainly wouldn't expect ANY other loudspeaker to do better being forced to sit butt up against a wall. They make the best of a very bad situation. Have you ever considered divorce? |
@boomerbillone Well said! When I look at pictures of people's HIGH END systems online, on Instagram, etc, 95% of them have speakers pushed up against walls, up in corners, sunk back in nooks on the wall, very close together... all kinds of stuff. Most people can't just put speakers in the middle of the floor and IMHO far more speaker designers ought to recognize that fact and design for it. I even spoke to a company that makes and sells direct to consumers and they basically told me they wouldn't send me their speaker when I explained the placement constraints imposed by my wife, my young child, and basic aesthetics. Thankfully room correction is a valid option and on my integrated it made a HUGE difference, completely restoring imaging and soundstage. |
