Who listens primarily to Redbook CD?

I found that DVD players, even the inexpensive ones, often sounded better than some dedicated cd players did due to their (often) superior error correction, etc as needed to read DVDs.

You’ll find focal length and width distant is different for each. Look at the bottom of the graph.
Each is best for it’s own format/purpose.
https://wiki.metropolia.fi/download/attachments/61608878/Comparison_CD_DVD_HDDVD_BD.svg.png?version=1&modificationDate=1355147497000&api=v2

Cheers George

I listen mostly to jazz and have over 1500 CDs and have until recently only listened to them through my Red Wine battery powered CD transport (into a Metrum NOS DAC). Ripping and serving from HD or SSD makes sense to me, from a downsizing perspective as well as the error correction you get from the rip (and some of my CDs are pretty old and well used so I'm sure that helps). So I have been experimenting with HQplayer on my laptop as a cheap first step in analyzing HD streaming over USB vs cd transport over BNC as the source. This setup allows me to try upsampling as well. First impressions: even without tricking out the source with USB reclockers, linear power supplies, etc I am getting excellent sound so it bodes well for moving to a dedicated music server. One surprise, I don't hear much if any benefit from upsampling though I have a lot more playing to do in that area. It's what makes this hobby so much fun!

One can't help wondering if copying an audio cassette would also result in a copy that sounded better than the original. Or is that just too crazy?

@tommylion thanks for the phtotos I always love looking in AN gear. So my AN Dac-3 Signature predates their use of that AMD chip and uses the PCM63K chip which is a multibit chip. For that reason, and the overall AN overbuilt power supply and robust design I feel my unit sounds fantastic. Cheers!

One can’t help wondering if copying an audio cassette would also result in a copy that sounded better than the original. Or is that just too crazy?

It is possible that some people might think it does. It has to do with the given individual genetic pre-disposition of "Ear-Q" (hearing intelligence) in the individual’s neurological aspects, and how they learned to hear (how they ended up wiring themselves as they grew-over time) and how they used this feedback loop to wire up and chose a given audio system. Learning speed also plays as part of the IQ and E-Q package in as it changes the size and scope of the field of analysis, and in time, or work done over time, so the final position maybe quite far down the road and encompass much, or ...not.

Since it is connected to their unconscious aspects and flows through the place their reproductive impetus is located, it can get into an intractable and unstoppable force the size of their own life force..when it comes to protecting that given ’position’ on audio. They have to project it and have the world echo-mirror it back, part of the ego awareness loop that passes through the conscious-unconcious barrier.

Which is how you get to intractable positions which are forced upon others --as if said positions are every one else’s reality. Complex sociological aspects are also at play.

And so on.

There’s much more to say but one cannot wire a 50 page explanation for each post, so it can be better received. To err in the smaller post on the side of ease, not pressure and force.

My point is that most people in this thread are saying that Delta-sigma is a fail when it comes to representing the best that digital can do.

The math and the measurements and the science of it can take a walk... if it fails to meet what people think of as representing music. One person proclaiming strongly that it does meet such....does not change that.

What we hear is what we hear and measurement in engineering terms is not what the ear hears or how the ear works. Engineering weighting of error vs signal does not work in the same way the ear does. This is the critical break point in situations that put too much emphasis on science in electrical engineering, and fail to properly work out what the ear does and expects in signal. The ear is not a ’finished’ science. That area of endeavor, physically and neurologically.. is not complete, or as measurable as the electrical engineering.

The problem is almost equivalent to the one where the drunk looks for his keys under the light, even though he lost his keys somewhere else, in the dark. As he can’t see in the dark. Which we recognize as near pointless. One has to go into the dark, as that is where the question and the answer is.

These flame wars are as usual, the people who use their ears.... and... the people who push about science and electrical function.

And few on the electrical side of the argument realize they don't have a complete question and answer set. And they push almost blindly. They tend to weaponize the science and engineering and use it as a stick and firebrand to attack those who use their ears and aren't deeply versed in the science end of the pool. It is, in it's extreme cases... in a word, incorrect or incomplete, as positions go.

Until about a 18 months ago, CD was my preferred format. It no longer is for numerous reasons including cost (why burn to cd or buy a cd when the digital file can be played directly), longevity of the data storage on that media (data fails in far less than the purported "100 years" when the format was originally introduced) and bit/sample limitation (why listen to 16/44 when 24/192 is available).

The aforementioned said, I still love my Emotiva ERC-3. For a relatively inexpensive piece of audio gear, it certainly can provide a lot of enjoyment when playing back a redbook cd. While I would think this is a delta sigma dac and not r2r (given the posts herein about cost and availability of r2r, but I honestly don't know), it truly does produce outstanding sound and is probably among the most underrated players on the market.

Re this: teo_audio118 posts06-08-2017 12:01pmI tend to listen to redbook, for the most part, but I’m using a ladder or R2R DAC. No delta-sigma single bit DAC here.

Which makes a huge difference, IMO. When folks hear it they keep asking me how to get that incredible sound out of digital.

... I have to second that statement. R2R digital has transformed my entire experience of digital music (which began in 1986 and evolved quite a bit on past decade).

I listen to audio primarily via a relatively complex desktop system w/multiple, high-quality headphone amps & headphones being used whenever the spirit moves me (the Violectric V281 amp/pre-amp normally does preamp dues for powered speakers + subs). In next 2 weeks the speakers will be upgraded to ZenPro mod Yamaha HS7 powered monitors...because I tired of looking for audiophile-level powered speakers in the size/power I seek. I have at least 1,200-1,500 CDs, ~250 of which exist as rips on HD (.wav files) or in various complications (also .wav files). I've never heard MQA or high-rez audio. Will someday, but not a priority. Redbook files have much upside for exploration, depending on the DAC used.

Anyway, last summer I purchased my first R2R DAC--the Audio GD NOS 19. Not only is it an R2R design, but it's a native non-oversampling variant of that design. The NOS 19 took a long time to finish burning in (>400 hrs, as other users report--true), but when it did, the digital coming out sounds essentially nothing like any digital I'd heard previously. Some delta sigma designed impressed, but this is truly different: organic, natural-sounding, unforced, conveying more ambience & instrumental timbre than I'd ever heard digital do. I heard this on speakers + sub, but even more so via high quality, balanced headphones. I quickly became accustomed to this new kind of digital sound & now take it for granted.

I'm so impressed by the NOS 19 that I recently acquired on of the last DAC-19's made by Audio GD (that's the oversampling variant of the NOS 19). I just finished buring that in 400+ hrs and will soon do some critical listening via headphones. But I can already tell that it's in the same R2R "family," far more organic and natural than most DACs.

In short, with 2 amps costing less than $1K each, I've found that R2D designs completely transform how I perceive digital music.

In case you're wondering why I dabble audio--it's 100% about music. I loved music from early childhood and listen to it 12+ hrs a day, mostly streaming classic/jazz/ambient from European sources (I'm self-employed & work in home office, so I do as I please). 30 yrs ago I had very large, audiophile systems in the living room, but those days are gone.

CD cost is a problem?  

I just buy used CDs.  When I find something I think will benefit musically and acoustically from better recording or mastering techniques, I hunt up better recorded or mastered CDs.

I don't like to rent when I can own.

My primary source although not necessarily my go to is FM radio via analog signal and professionally serviced and upgraded when necessary  FM tuners from the golden era .  Reception optimized by rooftop FM only rotatable antenna.      Were I not in the SF bay area and unable to utilize radio waves from what IMHO is some of the best FM left in the country   I would be listening via online.  Although  I have to say Redbook cd shares primary source duty with FM  and  I will naturally go to it when nothing of interest is available via analog signal or it will just be my main listening for the day as well.   And,  I will emphasize that a great part  of my collection of Redbook is what I have heard on my local college FM station which in effect surpasses  anything I have heard over many years of listening to FM --since the 60's covering most all genres .      I take special liking to my transports which are all 90's units which use the last of the best Philips mechanisms.  Rotel--CDM9, PSA Lambda-CDM9/pro,   Museatex  CD-D--CDM1mkii  Museatex has been upgraded by Stephen Sank.     My dacs currently are  Burson DA160,  Metrum NOS mini dac,  Shek D2 .  Vinyl  set up as well.  

I'd be perfectly happy to listen to just CD's...but there is a time issue.  I don't want to have to search for what I want to listen to, open the jewel box, pull out the disc, open the transport drawer, insert the disc, close the drawer and then go sit down.  This previous mentioned "procedure" reminds me of how cumbersome photography was in the film only era.

Instead, I've ripped all my CDs to a hard drive that feeds via an Oppo 105D.  The music files are FLAC and organized by genre and then alphabetically by artist. I've tried to compare the FLAC files with the track played via disc and I just cannot tell the difference.  So, for me, it is a no-brainer...put away the discs and listen via scrolling and selecting.  Playback is near instantaneous.

I do not believe in Hi-Rez audio (at least as far as the human ear is concerned) but own a few SACD's which I still listen too.  For background music, Pandora works fine. I left the LP world long ago.  Same issue.  I mean even if LPs are actually capable of sounding better than digital, how many really want to invest in the additional equipment and go through the old school "loading" procedure?

CD cost is a problem?

Yes. Even in bulk (500?) quality CDs are .25 each. In my case I have 3500, literally. Why continue down that path instead of playing the file directly (i.e. without having to burn to CD)? Couple that with the fact that CDs deteriorate and one should at least ponder the question, why throw money away?

@desktopguy--- Im checking online re/that NOS 19- you do seem really impressed with its performance.  Im wondering what other units on the market use that design?   To clarify---your referring to a NOS 19  as well as one that has oversampling?    Wouldn't they have different model #'s?

I meant to get the source music.

Not sure why you are burning CDs?

BTW, I use iTunes and rip to Apple Lossless.  For CDs with HDCD on them I can still use my Cal Audio Player.

hifijones
  The 3rd step may take some time because the price of admission is still more than I’m willing to pay at the moment: the Linn CD12.

+1 and more on that. I have the CD12 MkIII last version made with the 4 x PCM1704's and HDCD PMD200, nothing comes close to it on 16/44 24/96 Redbook.
Give me a call in 3mts it could be yours hifijones, as I'm looking in new Multibit directions.

Cheers George

I would second the tubed Concert Fidelity DAC that @ps68 above referred to.  It has a Philips DAC chip. Very fine sound I get from it, frankly eclipsing what I can get from LPs at any (to me) affordable price point in practically every way.  My CF DAC is fed only 16/44 redbook digital signals by a MacMini via Berkeley USB.  I have goosed the performance of my CF DAC with Shakti Onlines and Synergistic ECTs inside and by damping the PCB screws with Herbie's washers. I use a very good balanced power source (BPT) for all components.  Stillpoints ERS paper all over the inside walls of my Berkeley USB, another 10 SR ECTs inside and Herbie's washers damping the PCB screws. BTW I have very little ERS paper inside the DAC, and that only on the transformer.  I can say honestly the results make me very happy. 

The Schiit is an R2R but not discrete so IMO still is a chip type of processor.  You can buy discrete R2R for under $300.  I have also build a DAC with the sigma and I found it so sound excellent also.  The discrete R2R was more analog sounding to my ears, but I also liked what the Sigma offered.  Its a matter of ones own taste.

Happy Listening.

Red Book most of the time, either hard drive or dedicated disc player.  I have a few DVD-A's and maybe 25 SACD most being dual format, SACD/Red book. I also do vinyl.  I have a fairly large collection of music and really don't need to rent more.

I bought an Esoteric K-01X a year ago and since then I have rediscovered all my Red Book CD's.  Esoteric is one of those companies that believes you can get the best sound from spinning silver discs, as opposed to streaming or file storage.  They made me a believer.  It also does a phenomal job on SACD's.  But the level of improvement on CD's is more dramatic.  The K-01X unfolds and delivers 16 bit media with the same depth, density and delicacy as a high-end MC cartridge.  An absolute blast!!!

alexatpos' response in favor of RBCD:
"There is also a matter of owning (holding it) the actual product.."

Thanks for this comment as I wholeheartedly agree! 

Pretty much most of us I think. But all my files are ripped into my PC as lossless. And also a huge vinyl collection.

I was raised on vinyl.  I remember I was so poor in college I had no records or player of my own...but my roommates usually did - the set where the speakers would fold out and the turntable would fold down.  Once I graduated and had a job, building my record collection was a priority.  In those days guys would come over and see you collection and go through it. They would invariably say something like: "Dude...cool...you have the new Three Dog Night album, can we play it? " Except the address "Dude" hadn't been invented yet.

So my point is that it was a cool thing to have your "collection" on display for visitors to see...even after the switchover to CDs.  I miss that.  While I love the efficiency of quickly scrolling to find any CD I have on FLAC via my Oppo 105D with attached hard drive, I miss the collection display.

I bought an Esoteric K-01X a year ago and since then I have rediscovered all my Red Book CD’s.

I’m not sure but I think that’s maybe because like it’s predecessor the earlier X-01, it uses 8 x PCM1704 R2R mulitbit dacs for Redbook conversion.

And the X in the K-01X may designate that it also has a Delta Sigma (bitstream) dac to do SACD with.

ESOTERIC X-01: A killer Redbook player

8 x PCM1704 – SM5847AF – SM5819AF: VRDS-NEO Transport.

X-01

http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/esoteric-p01_vrds-neo-trans_464pix.jpg

http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/pics/200906_esoteric_x01_800w.jpg

K-01X

http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/k01x/img/f_photo02.jpg

http://www.my-hiend.com/audiotemp/2015/photo/5.7K01X/K01X0046.jpg

Cheers George

I have many cds and have been buying them since 1984 since about the time Sony and Phillips introduced the first players. I have always liked red book cds. I have two cd players, an older Sony ES model and a Rega Apollo. With both, I can update external DACs as I wish, and I have as they get better and better. As I think about the first DACs, and the terribly harsh sound they produced I have witnessed and heard the sound quality increase tremendously.

I will admit, I have ripped music to a HDD and I have added a Bluesound Node 2. I am playing music from a HDD feeding the Bluesound music server. Nevertheless, I hope to keep playing CDs, since I have been using CDs for over 25 years.

thats one of the top reasons: collection on display.

if not from the personal satisfaction i get from seeing my virtually complete May 77 grateful dead catalog, then it comes from when i (as a single man) have women over and ask them to pick out something to listen to.

they have to stand up on tip toes to read A-B
they have to bend over to read N-S

that alone keeps me from ever going to PC audio.

@rhyno

thats one of the top reasons: collection on display

Interesting, because this is one of the top reasons I DO NOT continue to collect (acquire new via purchase or burn to via digital file and computer software) Redbook CD’s

I have 3500 Grateful Dead CD’s. That is basically 3.5 terabytes of data. I have 6 Terabytes of Grateful Dead on a Western Digital My Book Duo external hard drive.

The CD’s take approximately 16 cubic feet of space. The my book duo takes approximately 1/4 cubic feet of space.

CDs on hold. Cassettes have precedence. Sound has Priority.

And I'll add to my previous post herein that the 16 cubic feet of space taken by my 3500 CDs includes the fact they are stored efficiently in the 100 CD spindle they came in. If stored in individual jewel cases, forget about it....  

Free tip to anyone with a lot of CDs. Always store them vertically, not horizontally. The sound will be much better. Please don't ask why.

I listen mostly to CDs. Another great aspect of the cd is the massive amount of music that was out of print or extremely rare on vinyl (or 78) that was made available inexpensively, in great sound, on cds.

One of my listening interests is American roots music (Blues, Jazz and Country). I have been able to collect music by W. C. Handy (the father of the blues), Mamie Smith, who recorded the first blues vocal 78 (Crazy Blues) in 1920, and nearly every note recorded by Hank Williams. I have many compilations of great music that would have never been available if it wasn’t for the cd boom.

And it’s not just obscure music that cd made available. You want Elvis’s complete recordings? No problem. The Stones or Beatles in mono or stereo? The British or American versions? They’re available cheap. Alternate takes or demos? Tons of them. Led Zeppelin or the Yardbirds at the BBC? You got it.

There is so much great music available only on cd that music lovers should celebrate the cd for that alone, if for no other reason.

Free tip to anyone with a lot of CDs. Always store them vertically, not horizontally. The sound will be much better. Please don't ask why.

Doubtful anyone would ask why, because your statement is not true.

@rhyno LMAO best case yet for cd's and no one seemed to get it. But dear lord dude that's a lot of cd's I have to admit I've never been happier since getting into streaming,  jewel cases are the work of the devil!

gdhal
Geoffkait: Free tip to anyone with a lot of CDs. Always store them vertically, not horizontally. The sound will be much better. Please don’t ask why.

Doubtful anyone would ask why, because your statement is not true.

Huh? A statement of mine not true? That’s seems highly unlikely. It is your statement that's not true.

Cd's are an object lesson of respecting scientists dealing intelligently with objective reality, rather the narrative folks speculating that other formats and sampling rates must sound better.  Mathematically, Redbook is solid, revealing its glory as better processing evolves.

Of course, Redbook will also faithfully store badly made masters, and faithfully deliver its information to badly-designed downstream equipment.

@ electrostacker:

Exactly.  Fidelity ends when the original recording session ends.  Wrapping an analog recording from the 1970's in a 24 bit package does not make that recording have greater fidelity. And ripping a CD to 24 bit does not magically make it sound better than the redbook CD (are you listening Neil Young?). 

True Hi-Rez recordings must be recorded at 24 bit and retained at 24 bit throughout the recording and post production process. Almost all "high-rez" recordings being sold today are not better than Redbook.  Just another scam to get us to buy our music all over again.

I received my PS Audio DirectStream Memory Player, replacing my PerfectWave Memory Player, hooked to my DirectStream DAC via the I2S connection.
The new disk player has a number of advances, hooked to a DirectStream DAC it has the ability to output native DSD directly to the DAC (will need to wait on auditioning that, my DAC is an early model and PS Audio will be doing a hardware update for me, for free).
The improvement in the sound quality of "regular" CDs is immediately noticeable!  When a drummer is well recorded, you can "experience" the timbre of ride cymbals vibrating, not just the sound.  It also seems to have more "distinctness" to the individual performers.  The bass is better controlled and defined.  And the soundstage is improved.
Can't wait for my DAC to be returned with the updates.  But so far, the sound of "regular" CDs is awesome!
Great job PS Audio!

I listen to physical CDs... and SACDs... and digital files... and vinyl. I used to listen to R2R tapes but my Teac A3340S didn't survive my last move (sob!).

Why limit oneself to only one format?

Why limit oneself to only one format?

Because you prefer to invest your limited resources in getting the best sound you can from one format, rather than mediocre sound from several.

Norm has a fix for that: he rebuilds and mods out gear, all the time. :)

Wish I had the talent & skills to do that 😕

I have not found a streamin service that offers the sound of a great CD player with a well mixed recording. Can anyone confirm that the 0's and 1's from a streamer are identicle to the ones on a CD. I have not heard anything to make itcseem so.

I have yet to hear a streamer demo'ed to me, sound better in an a/b than good hi-end cdp playing the same album.
I would think that error correction with streaming would be much more, because it's got to come from anywhere in the world via the net. There's got to be some loses of those 1's and 0's.
Also streamers usually have smp power supplies, these them selves are massive noise polluters, and infiltrate everything
Then there's the hard drive for storage, these also error correct and are also powered by smp's.
  
At least with a cd the 1's and 0's are stamped into it bit perfect, and the only thing that can do damage are cheap lasers, they seem to error correct more than good ones.

Cheers George  

@georgehifi 

In my system, the combination of Aurender N10 and ARC DAC9 sounds just as good as my CD player. Of course, I end up spending close to twice as much to rival the performance of my CD player :-)

I love spinning my CD's to this day but I can't help appreciate the the sheer convenience and accessibility of ever growing Tidal streaming catalog. 

Cheers!

Analog to>digital DAC to analog is the GAME.
Remove 101% of any Jitter an and error’s an your about a close to a Nirvana playback for now. Today you may need to SPEND 10K++ on a DAC or streamer that may come close.

But if your not sure about your CD player or Music streamer.
Here's A TIP. Buy (2) Audio Quest Jitter bugs. Insert one in your Cd player or a stand along DAC. One in your Streamer.in there open USB ports. No in-feed signal required. I would be amiss if your don’t notice an improvement.
************
Yes the are Cheap. So is a 50 cent Ice cream bar but it’s very
TASTEE THOUGH!

You can’t remove 100% any errors, as they are filled in with guess work by the error correction. And the more the errors the more the wrong info is being given back.

Cheers George