I still think my Lamm ML2 (original model) are wonderful but you need very efficient speakers. @clearthinker - I had an SP-10mkii for many years, what a glorious piece-- it was the last of the old school ARC tube preamps. It definitely had issues with microphony--but that phono stage was glorious for its time. I finally did sell it and went with a separate line and phono stage set up (which has evolved over time) but that preamp was a classic. That is what you were speaking to, yes? |
There seems to be a consensus here: Today is the era of best tube amplification. And: some of he best stuff comes from artisan electronic designers. I just took delivery of a Supratek Grange phono-/pre-amp. I have not yet hooked it up because I am building a new vibration-attenuated instrument rack, and the concrete inside the tubes takes forever to cure. But the enthusiastic testimonials from Supratek users over the years had me pay attention. Communicating with the designer, Mick Maloney from New South Wales was free education of another level. This is an important point: today’s designers have so much more information at their hands compared to previous generations, that one can find new approaches to solving very basic problems such as SET linearity, source impedance matching, forsaking SUTs, etc. almost every year. I am currently a user of the "legendary" Sunvalley EQ1616D phono-pre, sporting a magnificent ELROG 274B rectifier tube: this was my first foray into tube territory, and I never looked back since. It will be for sale pretty soon, I guess ... |
@whart I was a purist so my SP10 is the original. It was said the microphony could be reduced by placing the amp between heavy steel or stone blocks but I have never tried. I still listen to it occasionally today in my second system; Zarathustra TT (Simon Yorke S2, very rare), Zeta, Ortofon Anna, into the Krell KSA50 and Audiostatic ES200. Very vintage, apart from the Anna. I must say I don't hear microphony in the AR. Most recognise SP10 as a classic and it still commands prices to match; was $4000 in the early 80s and nearly $3000 today. |
When people say that today's amplifiers are better, or vice versa, have they really heard a broad enough sampling of both to make that claim? Have they really heard the best of vintage amplifiers--such as Western Electric 59A (252 pushpull), 91A (300B single-ended), 86 (pushpull 300B), Marantz 9, etc.? I heard a demonstration where a very good current model Audio Note Kageki (parallel single-ended 2a3) was compared to the 59A playing Audio Note AN-E speakers. The Kageki sounded wonderful until the 59A stepped into its place--the comparison was so startling that it made the Kageki sound like it was broken. The Kageki is now almost a six figure amp and it does not come close to the 59A playing speakers that should be friendly to Audio Note amps. I really like the sound of the Kageki (I own a pair), but the 59A is so much better--more vivid and alive, more rich and harmonically saturated, and still relaxed sounding (not edgy). The 59A probably costs twice as much as the Kageki these days, but for someone who can afford it (not me), it would be the end-game amp. |
Best is a loaded term. What output power is required? What speakers being driven? What size room? What kind of music? Long term reliability? Etc.
I loved an old Mac I had from the 60’s, loved my Conrad Johnson Premier Four & now really enjoy my Rogers EFH 200 Mark II integrated amp which probably has the some of the highest build quality around & sounds excellent. To each his own. |
That's cool, and I think is a good approach for this topic. I answered "right now" because the modern state-of-the-art is just insanely good, but I'm definitely heavily nostalgic for the classic vintage tube amp sound. 6L6GC, 5881, KT66, EL34 based vintage amps - sound sweet as hell. Today's SOTA is better, BUT you will pay dearly for it. On a budget - heck yeah a restored classic tube amp is hard to beat. Cost no object, get those new VAC Master 300 monos lol. |
The best parts for making tube amps exist now, not 50-80 years ago. There are some pretty cool designs out there although its all too common for newbies to rehash 1950s designs. I don't subscribe to the idea that older transformers were better. I think that might have been true in the 1980s but not any more. There are too many artisan transformer manufacturers that fly in the face of that. (I bought a set of Edcor transformers for a little 5 Watt amp project I was working on and they performed great- full power bandwidth past 100KHz. Not proof of anything really but you can get good transformers without having to work too hard at it.) Of course OTLs allow you to get around that problem. When we came on the scene nearly 50 years ago we had the distinction of making the world's first reliable OTLs. But we were actually pushing balanced operation more than we were OTLs- and so our OTLs were fully differential and balanced. Balanced operation offers a lot of advantages if the circuitry is fully differential. This is because the distortion signature is so much more benign than you get with single-ended circuits or single-ended combined with push-pull like you see in something like the Dynaco ST70. This is simply because of the kind of non-linearities present in such amps; mathematically, single-ended has a quadratic non-linearity, fully differential amps have a cubic non-linearity (so harmonics are falling off at a faster rate as the order of the harmonic is increased) and traditional push-pull amps have both (resulting in a prominent 5th harmonic, which is why I think most SET lovers don't like push-pull). Balanced allows for lower noise and greater immunity to power supply issues, as well as the ability to reject noise at its input. There are brilliant amps like the Berning zero-hysteresis design (so-called 'ZOTL', which is an acronym with no meaning; that was something made up by the late Harvey Rosenburg) however such amps are actually hybrid as they rely heavily on a solid state switching circuit running at about 250KHz. Overall its pretty easy to demonstrate that the best tube amps are made right now. But that's not to say that older amps can't compete if properly refurbished- since there are better parts now, you can easily get older amps to outperform their new specs.
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I like the 45 tube tube too. Are you using it single-ended with 94 db/w speakers? That would be a bit on the edge. I had a pushpull 45 amp which I used with 99 db/w speakers, and I had no issues with power, except for large choral works at somewhat high volume, but I did sense that I was at the edge.
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@fthompson251 I hear that's one of their classic models, definitely a keeper! There are still fans of their 300B sound before they transitioned to beam tetrodes. |
@fthompson251 That’s cool! Will you be taking the older amp to the VAC factory in Sarasota FL I think it is? For me this is notable testament of what some amp makers will do and others won’t when it comes to not only standing behind their product, but also upgrading it later for you too should you desire. I’ve had some older amps I wanted to keep beyond upgraded beyond caps I did myself, and the manufacturers would not do much more. Makes the original investment less worrisome too knowing that factory is there for you later on. Good for you, Best of Luck on this. Please report back after to let us know how it goes! |
@decooney @mulveling To this day Kevin Hayes will work on any VAC unit. (that I know of) Secondly before it leaves back to it's owner he personally auditions it to assure it is voiced was designed to be. I had them upgrade my CLA1 Pre amp to Mk III this summer and they did a great job on it. The upcoming amp upgrade is rather extensive so I am excited to see the outcome. |
I fixed up an ST70 and a PAS 5 many years ago. Just replaced all the resistors and caps. I thought it was bass-heavy in my system, but the midrange and highs were great. For the PAS, I replaced all resistors and caps and bypassed all the tone control stuff. I am a HUGE Decware fan. Had a couple of their small entry level amps, and now have a Torii - 20WPC - EL34 based amp. I love all their stuff. Also have one of their phono preamps for a hi output cartridge, and I built an 8" full range open baffle using their cabinet design. The 'AH HA' moment for me was when I replaced my SS pre-amp with the PAS5? PAS3? I forget - and I could not believe the musicality that came out of my system. That was my conversion to tubes. |
NOW most definitely unless you like flabby Bass response and such. And Yes Kt-150’s or KT120’s If the amps been built for it like a CJ Art etc. There’s zero comparison imho from the newer designs vs the older stuff from most manufacturers especially CJ and VTL (I have had several of their earlier versions including Ichibans and 450’s etc) and would not trade any of them in exchange for my current S200 signature as sounds incredible & with no fuss whatsoever. I love vintage gear like old motorcycles to look 👀 at period. “Nuff said” |
But do they sound better. I’ve ridden old Harley’s and recently owned a new Road King Special. There is no comparison that the new is a better bike, which doesn’t even come close to my BMW 1250GS. I like vintage stuff too but it doesn’t mean it’s better. Any engineers? How about shop owners who have 20+ years of experience? Any thoughts? |
Hi @larryi , What kind of power supply capacitors did Western Electric use in 59A amplifier? I'm not sure it was already the mass production of electrolytic capacitor then. So probably they used oil capacitors with paper and foil. This capacitors in PS sound much better than any kind of electrolytic including BG and AN Kaisai.I tried Soviet KBG-MN capacitors made with the similar technology. They really sound magical. |
I don't know what kind of caps are in the power supply, but, I can check on it as the dealer still has it. I would guess paper in oil type, as this is commonly found in Western Electric gear. My re-built amp uses such caps. I am waiting on the same dealer finding the appropriate value of Western Electric paper in oil caps for my speaker. |
@earthbound For the record, you did if you read this thread.
@alexberger There were electrolytic capacitors in common production prior to WW2- by the early 1930s (the time of this amp) they were sealed aluminum cans that had all the wires exiting a single central mounting cylinder on the bottom of the part. The cylinder was threaded so the part was held in place by a single large nut. The internals of these things was frightful; electrolyte filled, with metal plate not unlike what you see in a vacuum tube supported in space. When I used to restore antique radios I would open these things up and install the replacement cap inside. From what I've seen of WE though they didn't use such parts. |
I recently purchased a Roma el34 push pull as my first tube amp. I’m on the Decware list and purchased the Roma as a temporary amp. I owned a ss Rotel amp and preamp, Velodyne sub and used both AR10’s and B&W speakers for 25 years. Had the Roma going through some Zu Audio Soul Sipremes and it sounded great. Speakers induced ear fatigue so I’ve since gone to Audio Note e/lx’s. I couldn’t wait for Decware so I purchased an Aric Audio Custom 300b PSET amp. Hand made, point to point, hand made transformer which is a completely separate 60lbs unit, host of upgrades and no circuit boards. It can’t even be compared to what I used to listen to, and I loved those old AR speakers. Not saying there wasn’t great stuff back in the day, just thAt there’s great stuff being made now. All my vintage listening friends, old amps and speakers of good to very good quality, are really impressed with the sound. So good news. There’s great sound to be had today if you’re willing and able to be patient and spend a few bucks. |
Every time has good, bad, mediocre.
@erik_squires Funny you mentioned AR from 80's. AR fans will hate me for this, but AR SP9 MkIII has remained one the WORST sounding components I ever purchased, very bad memories of that one. Hybrid design didn't work for me, SP10 would have been much better choice. This purchase probably around 1984-5. |
Yeah - have to agree. Some years ago, a few friends and I did a shootout of several preamps. There was an older AR hybrid preamp in the mix, and I believe it was specifically the SP9. Tons of gain. It performed relatively poorly. Couldn't even keep up with the entry level Rogue Metis, much less their 99, and an Athena just blew it all away. It was more on par with the Sonic Frontiers SFL-1, also a hybrid. Those hybrid preamps had a steely edge and sounded lean and unnatural compared to the all-tube preamps. But that SP9 has seemingly NOTHING in common with the current Audio Research preamps, which are absolutely wonderful. Still a big fan of the Reference 6 here. AR really upped its game in the current era. |
Someone above made a Harley Davidson reference, and it fits well in this discussion. The best tube amps that ever existed are being made today, but they still include the same important electrical physics element, inherent distortion. Currently Harley has to be careful not to engineer out the trademark sound of the past engines just like the makers of tube amps want to make all parts of the amps better with what engineers have learned, but still using the tube design factor. Tube amps are very highly refined today with better transformers and more capability than ever, but just the fact that they are tube amps, and will have ~.5% distortion to start, and this distortion seems to add a harmonic that is pleasing to human ears still makes them desirable and makes the current offerings from all over the cost spectrum alluring to audio lovers. I have no way to state to anyone what the best amp from past or present might be, but I can admit that I'm still interested in a MC275, and even some of the offerings from lower end players such as Monoprice and similar to play with. While I look at some vintage pieces with nostalgia and desire, knowledge and common sense tells me to buy something current with all the improvements. |
@lohanimal That depends on the tube. I think most of the NOS tubes are better than a lot of the new pentode power tubes.... but there are some excellent 6SN7s being made these days that our customers say are better than 'the best' NOS... And there are some very decent pentode power tubes too- so the best answer is 'it depends'. |
Since I've gotten mentioned in these discussions I'll cite a few good tube examples. CAT has a superb reputation and I've heard this from other tube designers I know and respect. David Berning is a genius. His ZTOL circuit is one of the few real amp inventions in decades and his amps are special. And I'm biased(pun intended, since the designers were good pals) towards the now, defunct Melos amps. Tube monoblocks with over 400 wats in triode and 25 watts class A and a damping factor 0f 20 from tubes, all from just 4 output tubes is something special. And the 400 watt rating is one pulled back from higher ratings for reliability. And I know I'm missing at least a few other good tube amps. |
Hi @atmasphere , Which modern 6SN7 are better than NOS? I currently use Ken-Rad VT-231 from the 1940s in the input stage of my integrated 300B SET. They are not the most expensive NOS but still to change the pair of these tubes is expensive for me. Regards, Alex. |
I haven’t tried the Chinese 6SN7 that get good ratings (note some of their alternate sub types may draw more heater current!). But the Russian Tung-Sol and EH have a number of advantages:
In my VAC amps I find good vintage 6SN7GT sound best in V1 slots (I like various Sylvanias, Hytron, and Tung-Sol round plates best, followed by Ken-Rads and then RCAs last). But the Russian Tung-Sol GTB are just hard to beat in the V2 driver slots. They rock there. In V1 slots, the Russian tubes lend a bit too much of a solid-state like quality to the overall sound. For preamps, old vintage 6SN7 tubes are very hard to source to be quiet enough. Microphonics is a particularly big problem there. So yeah, as per @atmasphere , it just depends :) |
The Linlai 6SN7 is really impressive. I'm familiar with the KenRad, which is one of the best vintage types. Our customers report that the Linlai is actually a bit better- combining the best of the vintage 6SN7s with none of the weaknesses, which is a really strong recommendation! We've had a few in the shop and I really couldn't fault them. I didn't like the globe version- the glass itself is resonant so if the tube were to develop microphonics the glass will exacerbate them. |
The 80’s era ARC tube amps are generally superb. I used a ARC D70Mk2 for several years with a CAT preamp and the match was one made in heaven. Today, the ARC has been replaced by what I consider to be the best lower output tube amp on the market...the Jadis JA30Mk2, BUT it took this mono block amp to better the ARC from the 80’s. The ARC had a criminal system for biasing, which is why i went away from it, but if it did not have this issue, i suspect i would still be enjoying it. |
My now-departed MFA separates were certainly a joy to listen to. Over the years the mono amps and Luminescence preamp were significantly upgraded a few times, yielding even more musical enjoyment. I reluctantly sold those components due to their age (maintenance) and my desire to down-size. I had a virtual closet-full of spare tubes- the most difficult to source was the quad of octal tubes for the RIAA section. They needed to be extremely quiet and it was hit or miss- often a "big miss." :) Between the mono amps the preamp and power supply, the gear took a total of 26 bottles. :) Now I'm thoroughly enjoying a CJ control amp which has a mere 7 tubes. :) |
