@atmasphere
Sure, vinyl advances… but it is a loosing battle. Increasingly it becomes a question of your playback choices… and a question on your time frame. Adding the convenience… more and more people will put their money into digital… especially the MP3 folks… they will try better digital before attempting analog. All this amounts to a diminishing market for analog.
If I had an extra $100K right now I would definitely throw a good portion of that at analog. No question that will buy me the best playback… but I am 70 years old. If I was 45 years old or younger… I would invest in digital… it will just keep getting better and not require me personally collecting stuff that takes up space.
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@ghdprentice I agree on all counts. I would prefer to not have all that space taken up by so many LPs, but OTOH I'm also a bit uncomfortable with having all my music on the cloud, since this means a server farm (which can take as much power as a small city) has to be running 24/7 to maintain my music collection. If something were to happen to my online account, all of a sudden that music is gone. I don't like the idea of wasting all that energy when I'm not at home or when I'm asleep; with all the different hacks that keep showing up (and outright online attacks) I just feel better having the LPs available. Old school, I know.
Also its fun to put the LP on and have guests think that is really a CD because they play without 'surface artifacts' which I found out 35 years ago are often caused by the phono preamp rather than the LP surface.
I had some guests over this last weekend and I noticed that they were all about the sound and didn't have any thoughts about the media. That's how it should be.
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@atmasphere
It is fun putting on an LP. Mine have almost no surface noice.
I have storage space on my streamers. I use it for about an hour a year. Wifi is only likely to get more reliable.
I am pretty sure the single file on the cloud serving tens of thousands or millions of users. It consumes many times less energy than the same thousands of users, buying the vinyl albums or CDs… and having built space to store them.
Server farms are able to store stuff at a fraction of the cost and energy of manufacturing and distributing physical media. One of the many things driving their build. Finally the distraction of forests for paper… oil for plastic disks is reduced by online stuff.
Data storage is becoming a utility. If something happens to your Qobuz account, in a couple minutes you can be up and running with a free month of Tidal. Besides, you have your vinyl. So, you are set.
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Server farms are able to store stuff at a fraction of the cost and energy of manufacturing and distributing physical media. One of the many things driving their build. Finally the distraction of forests for paper… oil for plastic disks is reduced by online stuff.
Are you certain of this math? I'm not, curious is all....
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The best cartridge in the world is the one you continually go back to for the music. There is no best.
The chain and setup are too complex to make that evaluation.
Our ears and tastes are too varied.
Enjoy what you have. Keep listening
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@rauliruegas , no argument from me. Only in countries where people have large amounts of expendable income is the LP going to persist.
@atmasphere , modern 64 bit floating point processors can lose a bunch of bits before distortion becomes any issue close to being audible. This is more important than just volume controls. In order to do "room control" effectively you have to be able to cut digital volume as well as boost it at various frequencies. This has to be done without adding distortion on one hand and overloading amplifiers and speakers on the other. The technology is now fully up to the task. The new DEQX Premate series should be amazing on all accounts judging from what I have read.
I have never heard a silent LP, quiet ones yes, silent no. Also, LPs are not reliably quiet. Some are throw away noisy from the very start. Dust? Contaminated PVC? Recycled PVC? Bad handling? It is a very fragile process. As long as you have a backup disc digital files are 100% reliable in terms of playability and noise levels. You can not get a file with a scratch on it. This says nothing about the music.
Records may be improving overall but there is such wide variation in quality it is hard to see or hear. Some of my European Classical albums from the 70s and 80's are fabulously quiet and are great recordings. I can not imaging new releases being any better.
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@r_f_sayles "our ears and tastes are too varied."
That is a lame excuse. More accurate is always better. If I play a hi fidelity recording of an oncoming train on a table radio you will not jump out of the way. You will know instantly that it is a recording of a train played on a rather low fi device. If I put a hi fidelity recording on a state of the art system and waltz you into the room blindfolded you will wind up cowering in a corner when the train passes by. There is accurate and there is everything else. When dealing with a group of highly accurate systems capable of real output at 18 Hz, issues of taste may arise but, as Aryton Senna da Silva said, "second is just the first of the losers." When dealing with less than stellar systems taste becomes more of an issue relative to what defects you can live with. Hiding behind cable elevators and fancy cables will not help
It is chasing accuracy that makes this difficult and therefore entertaining. Viva the difficulty.
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mijostyn Try to lighten up just a bit and enjoy the illusion, ah?
My point was merely to enjoy listening and enjoy what you have. No excuses there.
I have never heard a HiFi that sounds lifelike. Only brief glimpses of light and occasional unveilings
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Dear @mijostyn : " my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files. "
That 50% on LP means that all those LPs were/are ndew/inedit recordings and with no re-issues? and that 50% of LPs how many bougth you by month?
Totally new LPs have several problems to appears in the market. Even that exist over 100+ pressing plants in the world many of these are small labels that over the time were and will disappears leaving only the around 10 " big " pressings plants that can't fulfill the artist/audiophiles needs of new material on LP. Pressing plants is a business and for the consumer prices does not goes to high the plants needs to presses 10K+ samplers of each new LP title. In the last 10 years the LP prices gones higher and higher and this tendency is far away to dissapears but the other way around: will be higher alaways.
Other problem is that vinyl is not a friendly build material ( petroleum. ) with the erath enviroment and will disappears sooner or latter. From some years now some small or maybe not so small plants are trying that the sources of that vinyl change it for other new material friendly with the enviroment and as a fact there are a few options that could or could not help about because those new materials needs to pass the " test time " of playing.
So, in a few years your 50% will goes to maybe 5% or just zero. So enjoy what you have.
R.
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@solypsa
Well, I have spent most of my career in IT. My first PC did not have a hard drive. I have been in charge of large data centers and implemented and been responsible for running multibillion dollar global corporations’ systems.
Digitally an album takes up 16 megabytes + or - 100%. This means you could store around 5,000 albums on one 4 tb disk drive. The environmental impact of producing 5,000 albums is huge… for one person! The environmental impact of producing one drive and servicing hundreds of thousands of people or more is minuscule. There are literally orders of magnitude differences between the two in terms of energy and environmental impact.
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@ghdprentice thanks for the breakdown. Based on your stated qualifications it would appear that you are in a position to know. No argument from me.
I only wondered when I think of the time factor. Iow every record ever made *could* still be played ( if not physically damaged ) so as much as 100 years of serving music.
I guess the digital era has saved us an order of magnitude of money and environmental impact. ;)
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@rauliruegas , I average about two records a week or 8-9 monthly. My guess is 75% new and 25% reissue. What happens in the future is no concern of mine but I agree the era of vinyl records will end eventually, certainly by the end of this century. My wife made me buy a new Garmin watch because it has an SPO2 meter built in and it does home sleep studies. She thinks I have sleep apnea. It will also take you anywhere in the world, manage 8 different sports, the weather, traffic and your health. All this in a watch. Think where we were 100 years ago, the 1920's. Where will we be in 100 years?
@ghdprentice , Anyone who thinks vinyl records are a problem needs to go to a dump and look around. Think of mountains of used car batteries that can not be recycled and all the toxic sh-t in them. Be very careful what you wish for.
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Some of my European Classical albums from the 70s and 80's are fabulously quiet and are great recordings. I can not imaging new releases being any better.
QRP (Acoustic Sounds) has succeeding in making LP surfaces that are about 10-15 dB quieter, FWIW.
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An “order of magnitude “ is generally taken to describe a 10-fold difference, so the energy storage advantage of digital over analog is thousands of orders of magnitude, but for the purpose of this thread, who gives a s**t?
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i listen to Dizzy Gillespie’s Big 4 lp pressing on the DaVa Reference cartridge. then listen to a digital transfer.
with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. the DaVa also sounds more real and life like....but that is subjective, the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy.
i can cite many similar occurrences.
btw; the DaVa also surpasses other cartridges too, but not nearly by as much. just more energy.
i love digital. but it cannot do some things analog can do. it smears peaks. still sounds wonderful. but it is not the same.
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Oh, this is an easy one: The London Reference. And priced at $5295 retail, a bargain ;-) .
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Dear @mikelavigne : I missed this post.
" nothing personal regarding my dropping out of this discussion.
i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. unfortunately a frequent Audiogon experience. "
It’s something a little " weird " that in a thread even with no personal value you posted : 19 times.
I don’t questioning you but for me any single audio thread has an inherent value. Your be-loved Studer’s were severely questioned that today are not any more a reference and was fully explained why. If I were you I will take more serious that subject and think to change all your references around your R2R units. That " think " has a value for me but not for you and is up to you.
I think that you should know by years now that the worst cartridge design to track and pick-up the higher recorded information from the LP grooves are the cantilever-less designs and even that not only bougth it that kind of cartridge design but touted on its quality performance level even that its tracking issues because it’s not only that can’t pick-up average recorded information but that additional to that those kind of cartridge designs develops higher tracking distortions and yes you are happy with. Again, is up to you.
I think that you have some level of mix-up or at least is what in this thread showed when said that digital is no reference at any reproduction step for be incomplete and in other thread you posted that’s " complete ". Additional I can’t understand what means that " complete " and you " refuse " to explain it.
You just posted , good.
Btw:
" with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. ,...... the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy. "
That’s can confirm what I said about " higher distortions " during LP tracking. That signal energy with the cartridge came with way higher distortions NOT musical information and distortons counts for those higher SPL high peacks. Yes, you love those distortions.
From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense .
Do you know why amplifiers can go into clipping stage. what helps to goes to that clipping stage? developed DISTORTIONS through the system ( not only in this range but mainly in the H: range. ) and in your specific case by the cartridge. Digital? well is the new reference with way lower distortion levels and for whatever reasons you listen digital the 70% of your listening time, I repeat: for whatever reasons .
and that’s what you like, fine with me.
R.
R.
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bdp24 - I like the way you think! Nothing I have heard beats the Reference!
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Dear @mglik : For your OP you are " biased " to your new Grado cartridge.
In the lst weeks made you a Lyra come back to listen it and makes a comparison again in between? and if yes then your Grado preference is still there?
Thank's in advance,
R.
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Hi Raul,
The difference between the Lyra Atlas SL and the Grado Epoch3 is pronounced and obvious. And it is especially good with my Quad 57s.
The Lyra is sold.
The Grado is orders of magnitude more ‘real” sounding.
And am buying a Channel D Seta H which seems to be the best dedicated phono stage designed specifically for MM and MI.
Grado is now testing the Seta H in order to recommend it for their Lineage Series cartridges of which the Epoch3 is the top.
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@rauliruegas
i changed my mind. had something to say, so i said it. and i deserve flack for being a putz. bring it on.😀
as far as digital ’smears peaks’ what i mean is that in a relative sense, digital rounds off the top of the transient compared to the analog original. so the ’peak’ of the horn blat is rounded, does not quite get reproduced with the same level of energy, and we hear the difference as a difference in the liveness and realism. the pressing sounds ’real’. it hits you. the digital is relatively tame in direct compare. not as real life.
normally we might just relate our personal view of what we heard. but if you have a peak output device on your amps, you can read the number. and hard to argue the number. even though i know you will write another 4 paragraphs with an argument.
as far my amps distorting, not very likely. they do 450 watts into 8 ohms. the passive towers of my speakers are 97db, 7 ohm....so a very easy load. and under 40hz i have active powered bass towers with 2000 watts on each tower. amp linearity is not an issue.
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Dear @mikelavigne : " amp linearity is not an issue. "
Certainly not and that was not my point.. You missed the main issue in my post. You said that at the same SPL the cartridge shows higher " signal energy ".
A good amp ( like yours. ) just amplify what comes at its input with almost no modifications. The amp does not knows if are incoming musical information only or if that musical information comes with high integrated/added distortions ( developed in other system chain's links: cartridge/tonearm/phono stage and the like. The system electronics can't fix those distortions and the best it can do is to reproduce it that way. ) and when amplify the digital signal this signal truly comes with way lower added distortions and that's why lower watts peacks when the analog/cartridge high distortions provoque those high watts peacks. The higher the distortions coming in to the incoming signal amp the higher the amp watts peacks.
This is not just an argument but something you have to understand because you just did not what I explained before.
" digital rounds off the top of the transient compared to the analog..."
that goes totally against what normally happens that's the other way around. Almost all LP lovers make a negative critic of the HF agresiveness of digital even hardness or brithness down there. Did you directly made the digital transfer?, the latest CD came from 2013 and as almost everyone know the original Pablo recording came from sept. 1974 and you know that are a lot of analog and digital re-issues. Analogue Productions has 4 LP re-issues, I own the HQ and the original Pablo label.
R.
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Dear @mglik : Channel D is a very good full SS design and wil makes your Grado shines better than ever. Good move.
Then you already " married " with the Grado. Must be something unique and obviously something to experienced.
Btw, along with a better phono stage unit I told you that could be a good idea to mate/test the Grado with a different tonearm and there are several options about like Reed.
Now, could be a quality improvement with a different tonearm?, wel I don't know for sure it's a " move " that has to past the listening tests. There is no other way but if you try it could or not find out that quality improvement level performance and if not then you confirm that what you have rigth now is the " one " couple in your system and that meet your Music/audio priorities.
Only thinking " loud ".
R.
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@rauliruegas
You have now posted thousands of words on this thread over the past month but have still not answered the OP's question.
Did you understand the original question.
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@mglik : Btw, do you know which the differences between the Grado ellipthical stylus shape ( that says is a " special "/unique elliptical tip. ) and normal ellipthical stylus samples?.
Obviously is working great but where is different is the question. Only curiosity.
R.
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Dear @mglik : I owned and own vintage Grado cartridges and till today no one of them ( including " the tribute ". ) disappointment under playing by its quality level performance.
" Optimized Transmission Line " was what Joseph Grado named to a totally new kind of design inside his first MC and latter on inside the Signature models as the XTZ and other models on this series.
That kind of new design dissapeared when those vintage Signature Z series gone out of the market but the white papers about were inside Grado company. Any one that lisened the XTZ knows that today could be one of the best cartridge quality performer out there. Maybe your Epoch 3 shares that cartridge motor design that’s a unique one and only Grado has it.
Btw, about that special ellipthical stylus in the Epoch 3 could be one of two other than ellipthical stylus shape used by Grado but unfortunatelly came only with a name but no description of the tip shape. One was named just: Grado tip and comes in one of the Grado samples I still own and the other is the one in the Signature family of the XTZ named: Twin Tip and maybe this is that " special ellipthical " in the Epoch 3 and I think this because today there is nothing really NEW on top stylus tip shapes: everything we can imagine stays already in the market.
Anyway, again thinking loud.
R.
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@mglik : " putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. "
I already posted here about your statement but was till today that I fall in count that one of the main Grado characteristic in its Optimized transmission line cartridge design was to " disappears " the surface noise but not only in the unmodulated grooves but mainly in the modulated grooves and achieve that with out any single compromise/trade-off that could disturb the true MUSIC signal information and yes you can hearing it. It’s part of that high quality level performance you are in experience with your Epoch 3.
Again, congratulations for,
R.
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Don’t know the difference in the Grado Epoch3 tip. Only know that the cart tracks, it is said, better than any cartridge. On the run in/out and between cuts, the silence is deafening. And, as I have said, the SQ is well beyond the Lyra Atlas SL. It is a new, amazing level of realism. I was lead to the Epoch3 by reading about the Decca London Reference. The Grado may be well beyond the Decca.
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BTW-I am also married to myTriplanar SE arm. It was quite involved and difficult ti mount it on my TT. And I would not second guess the Triplanar quality and compatibility.
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Dear @mglik : Yes, it's obvious that with a 20cu compliance it has to track very well. Maybe not better " than any cartridge " but at the ends a good tracker.
I own and owned several cartridges with different compliance spec and no one high compliance ( this is 20cu and up ) disappointed on that specific issue but certainly are better tracking cartridges but " unfortunatelly " not with the great cartridge motor of your sample.
I need to experience it and compare with the vintage signature Z series.
R.
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Dear @lewm : I just seen/aware of what you posted time before.
" Raul, in your own experience, what is the best sounding cartridge? . "
I already posted what has a close relationship with your question.
There is no best cartridge at all because the quality level performance of any cartridge have several playing desired characteristics where you can't diminish any one of them and unfortunatelly no single cartridge model achieves all at the top:
you have to ask your self: the best tracking, the best HF/MF/LF, the best low noise, the best transient response, the best natural color, the best natural agresiveness or brigthness, the best rythm,...etc.
And that's why the best cartridges overall sounds alike and between that " sounds alike " we make our choices with the cartridges that are nearer to each one of us targets.
If $$$ is no issue then the best choice is to own 3-4 of those " alike " performers and stay away to married with one cartridge model. You can be sure that those cartridge choices will fulfill your targets.
lewm, we are talking of transducers where each one has a similar but " unique/signature " voice exactly as a speaker but obviously and normally we don't own 4 different speakers but 3-4 cartridges do not needs the speaker space to listen it.
R.
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Some ''philosophical'' remarks about this '''theme''.
The general quantification theory looks like this
''all x are Fg&Gx''
If there is one x which does not satisfy conditions F&G the(general)
statement is not true.
Hower why should wahtever object satsfy only two conditios?
We can use as variables ,say,: a,b,c...n conditions. Aka there are
no limits to one or two.
Think of Popper with his ''critical rationalism''. According to him proving
an theory is not possible but well REFUTATION. His ''grow of knowledge''
get curious consequence: the more theories are refuted the more knowledge
we get???
But what kinds of ''theory'' he has in mind? Well one with one variable.
His own example is:
''all swans are white''
but the one he discovered in Australia which
was ''black'' REFUTED THE THEORY THAT ''all are white''.
This seems to me to be ''very poor theory''.
There is also an ''truth theory'' ascribed to Tarski:
''truth by satisfaction'' . That is to say by satisfaction but of how many
conditions? The ''picture obove'' is misleading in the sense of suggestion
of ONLY TWO: F and G.
I don't believe that the members in this thread realized what they are
talking about.
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Dear @mikelavigne : With all respect and re-reading your posts in this thread shows me that your mental attitude changed a little in the last months or years ( no issue with because averything is changing always. ) and I don’t know if is because the " pressure " over your system and way of thinking in the thread or because you really changed. Let me explain about:
first I can read that you bougth the Dava by the " be spoke " in the forum and that I remember that was not " normal " in you on personal audio issues. The Dava stampede strated around 2020 by " be spoke " gentlemans mainly in your forum and exactly as today ( 2 years latter. ) with no web site by the manufacturer and not only neither cartridge measurements but not even ( till today ) specs . Yes, all of you Dava owners can say: who cares, we like what we listen with.
Obviously you are a part of that stampede and obviously a follower and I never knew this " follower " new attitude in you.
Next two statements by your part that speaks of other change:
" why do i even come to Audiogon? sillyness. "
" i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. "
It looks as something way " presumptuous " and I can’t remmeber you that way. Fine with me, no problem.
" ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step. "
that’s your today subjective " absolutism ".
I read the 2020 thread and after around 500 posts ( including yours. ) no one of those gentlemans writed any single word about cantilever-less heavy tracking and developed distortions issues, no one and no one mentioned any single word about cartridge specs .
You already had and still have noise " problems " with that cartridge, with out mention what a gentleman posted here about those 2 extra wires for the cartridge power supply that goes against the " free " movements on your tonearm, not a good notice and you accepted ( ? ? ? ).
I think that in the last 2-3 years you made a come back to the audio past when you bougth a phono stage tube design and along that you find out that the external SUTs performs better than the one inside the phono stage ( you posted those in Agon threads ). Tubes is an electronic alternative and the worst place to use it is to handled cartridges and specially LOMC ones. In the other side, SUTs are named as " passive " devices and almost every one ( mainly tube lovers. ) says makes less degradation to the cartridge signal vs a couple of active bipolar devices ( really small and " ridiculous " devices. ) but things are that SUTs are far aways to be passive but are really " active " with the cartridge signal because this signal travels a huge number of m. through the transformers, cables and connectors and that signal it’s almost coupled relationship degrading at each mm. the cartridge signal way higher that those couple bipolar devices and not only that because the SUT has limited frequency response at both frequency extremes where your Dartzeel has not. Btw, you have good relationship with Dartzeel designer and can ask him why in the design the designers always are looking for the shortest path for where the audio signal must pass through.
Next link speaks of the cartridge importance tracking issue and I know that some audiophiles already read it somewhere and know the issue very well. We don’t need to be a technical oriented audiophile because it’s asy to understand the tracking information overall issue explained there. As me you only need to read carefully/slow. I’m posting the link because @mijostyn and I posted that cartridge tracking abilities is the main cartridge design characterisitc ( I have no less than 15 years posting the same. ) that even with out the link is just " common sense ":
http://pspatialaudio.com/analogy.htm
"" A rigid cantilever will offer no relief from this inevitable resonance on the tracking ability of the stylus. And tracking is king: an unyielding cantilever could introduce high frequency mistracking with its insiduous ability to damage records without betraying the damage it is doing. "
Everything here is posted in good shape, no other kind of attitude/agenda.
R.
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I have no trouble understanding @rauliruegas and in general I tend to agree with him but other than, " I do not believe that the members of this thread realize what they are talking about," I have no idea what @nandric is trying to say. Is this just me or are others having the sane problem? Nandric, we are talkin about cartridges. You know, those silly things we clamp to the end of out tonearms.
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miijostyn, I try to explain expressioon ALL as universal quantifier.
Experession ''some'' is unversal existential quantifier. t assuems
existance. But those are NOT NAMES which in ''subject place'' of
an sentence can be put as refering.expressions.
Perhapes ''some'' will do as in complaint: :''someone has stolen my car''.
If you knew who this ''someone'' is you would not use expression ''some''.
European commission decided thst ''ALL IMMIGRANTS HAVE THE RIGHT
TO ASYLUM PROCEDURE. Without consulting member state HOW MANY
they are willing to accept. Merkel stated' 'we will manage'' without any
iidea about the numeber (aka ''how many'') of immigrants. For this
purpose the so called NUMERICAL quanrifiers are needed. Say 10 or
50 mllion.etc. BTW Holland can't manage those immigrants because only
an smal part satisfy conditions for ASYLUM . Each country has rules
reg. treatment of strangers.
The ''best student in the class'' assume say 30 person in the class but
the ''best studenin the world'' can't be known.
The ''best cartridge '' is relational term because it imply comparison among
HOW MANY CARTRIDGES? Can you make any statement about cartridges
which you have never heard? Those are INCLUDED in ''ALL CARTRIDGES''
in this thread.
I already mentioned in my post that this question can be only answered in
the context of ''my cartriges are ...and from them the one that I like the
most (aka ''is the best'') is ,say, Ikeda'' FR-7fz . Raul owns _+ 100 and
from THOSE he seems to like ADC26 the most. Capiche?
thread
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Does the "World's Best Cartridge" the term adopted by the OP, and the OP's references to their other experiences of substantially expensive Cartridges.
Suggest that in their assessment the Cartridges that are seen to be coming in $10/£12 - $25/£30 per replay, if using a 1000 Hours of user life is the guideline, are the Cartridges to be considered only as the 'World's Best'.
As most users of HIFi equipment buy in a price range they are comfortable with, most users of the Vinyl LP as a Source, would not be in a position to comment on such an item that incurs this type of cost.
I am well-Travelled in my attempts to experience new encounters in HiFi, where the creating a broader knowledge of the equipment used in a Vinyl Source has been the goal.
In relation to having experienced a TOTR Cartridge from a recognised Brand with a growing reputation for their use of Technology, I will suggest the DS Audio Grandmaster used in a System that has approx' £200 000 is the most expensive Cart' I can put a price label on.
I have heard TOTR Cart's from other Brands and know I have heard Lyra's and Transfiguration Cart's in non-owned systems.
More interestingly for myself, is that using subjective listening an assessment method, carried out on non-owned and quite different built systems. I have not discovered a Cartridge that stands out as unique and must have, even though the possibility is for some, that they would not fit into a Cartridge Budget allocated by myself.
There are other questions as well, what actually qualifies a Cartridge to be given a Tile the 'World's Best' or even the Title 'Contender to be the World's Best'.
If subjective evaluation is to be the assessment parameter, as it seems to be for the OP, definitely for myself, and I am sure multiple others with an acquired experience.
The outcome of selections is looking likely to be quite varied across contributors.
One other criterion, that would also need to be added into the assessments being made are the control measures for the consistency of the report.
Are all assessments undertaken using the same supporting ancillaries?
Which prior experiences undertaken by the assessor, would deem the assessor qualified to make their evaluations being made known to the Public, to have any credibility.
Which would be the selection of supporting ancillaries for the Cart', to be used in conjunction with, are the ones that can be agreed on, to ensure there is a fair evaluation being undertaken.
Due to the function of the Cart', environmental impact can be considerably degrading to the Cart's function. Which are the ideal environmental conditions, to be present when making an evaluation.
My experiences to date, have shown myself that the most engaging and desirable experiences that have proven to be very attractive, are when carried out in a home, where a system has been built over many years of devotion and the choices made for particular devices and their mounting, have undoubtedly been correct for the Set Up in that unique environment.
I have been fortunate to have heard Cart's with values of up to £5000 in these types of conditions and have been thoroughly impressed.
In my experiences, I could quite easily live with a Cart' experienced from these encounters.
In my limited experience, it is not too easy to see where a Three - Fivefold increase in Cart' purchase value would offer a more engaging experience and stand out to the level where it justifies the extra expense, if I am using the recollection of other attained experiences of a more expensive Cart'.
I'm leaning towards @nandric assessment of the contributions and will add that in general the human has to offer some kind of purported reasoning for a made decision, especially when associated with the action of making a purchase that is encroaching on being one that is an absolute luxurious acquisition.
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pindac, I am talking about LOGIC of used sentences or statement which
include ''universal quantifier'' you about ''price '' and old classical economist
terms ''value in use'' as opposite to ''value in exchange'' (aka price).
I assumed that we all question any ralation between ''quality of sound''
and the prices for our ''gear''. Think of Dover's praise of this cheap
Denon which cost only a half of ''only stylus retip''. I have no idea why
he offered to me only half of an glas wine. Should I visit him all the
way to (Dutch) New Sealand for such ''PRICE''?
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Dear all, I appreciate your comments including mathematics, statistics, brain science, and so on. Here - something more practical.
The question for me is not what is best analog or digital, but how to get the best of both. Like others I use digital mainly for searching out new music – what can be worth it, buying on LP. Analog still connects more with me emotionally - like Bernie Grundman emphasises in the video above.
So this is what I do. I mainly play LPs in my main rig, and digital in my home office and elsewhere. The main rig includes Lyra Atlas and Aesthetix Io phono stage. But then I bring in this little trick – a good digital recorder (Tascam DA-3000). So the best LPs are recorded to double DSD which is the best digital format I’ve tried so far (and I have moved up the steps).
The Atlas – to my ears – is very good indeed and a good match with the Io. Sure, there may be better carts but this has to be evaluated in context. The Atlas has a quite strong 0.56 mv output and the phono stage likes it. I could go lower, but then, I would be even more dependent on ultra low noise tubes in the first gain stage, which can be hard to find (esp NOS). So context and synnergy – with the phono stage, arm and player (etc) - is very important not just the cartridge on its own.
So, what happens with the ‘trick’? Recording LPs is work and takes time. Some have argued that double DSD is so good you cannot hear the difference from playing the LP direct. Well, in my system I can. The digital version is good, but still has a way to go. Probably, some tweaks to the Tascam recorder could fix some of this difference. An engineer told me that improving the power rails into the AD section(possibly with an external LPS), replacing the downstream op amps with better pieces, and replacing the internal clock and PS to the clock with an aftermarket internal clock, could be a way to go. I have not had it done, and it may be hard to get the Tascam schematics for the job.
I recorded to R2R for many years and still have my trusted old Revox A77 at my loft. Maybe I should get it serviced and upgraded, but I am not sure how to get it done within reasonable cost. Or if I would actually use it. Would I go into buying the best music in analog tape format? Even when I’ve already invested in vinyl versions etc before? Not sure about that - but then, I dont know much about cost or availability (maybe someone here can inform me).
The great thing for me, now, about digital, is about convenience. And yes, I admit it – sometimes about clarity, beyond what I hear from LPs. The gap between streaming (in my case, Qobuz) and records has become smaller, and I appreciate that. Convenience means finding new music through streaming – but also, recording from the analog Atlas/Io chain. With a small DAP - digital audio player (in my case Fiio x3ii) - I can bring the sound from my main rig wherever I want. Or most of it. Comparatively speaking, the Revox A77 weighs a ton. It is not something to bring along – although I can remember doing it, to good effect, to parties in the 1970s.
It is remarkable that even with the comparatively «stone age» technology of vinyl record playback, through all the troubles of cart, arm and phono setup, and digitial recording from that, my recordings still hold a candle to streaming. I often find them better, in the longer run. This is what I listen to into the night. Once again, more emotional. Even though I hear some reduction of clarity, some pops and ticks, etc. Maybe, it is the atmosphere, the more natural ambience - or just my old man’s ears.
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@nandric I said I leaned toward your assessment of the contributions, which was your questioning of how such offered evaluation can be attained and seen to be without contention.
My own expressed thoughts on how such an evaluation can be attained, are not my attempts to interpret your pattern of thought, your queries are valid and from a perspective that is correctly aligned to the subject.
My own queries are more from the perspective of what are the requirements of the parameters needed to be put in place to qualify the assessments offered to be Bonafide and dependable.
Price of Cartridge and Price of System used for demonstration of such Cartridge seems to be the most important factor as the guideline. Under the guise of more outlay means more for your money.
I work on the Basis that certain products are priced, not as their production as a whole is reflected in their given value, but more that the Niche Market can ask for such a Value.
My experience, that I made known, is that I have been demonstrated Cartridges of substantial Value on Systems that are of a Substantial Value but was not left with an impression based on subjective evaluation, that I was being demonstrated a contender for a 'World's Best Cartridge'.
My own account of my experiences, suggest that when a Cartridge is demonstrated in a System, and the impact of that encounter is positive, inspiring and an attractor, being seen as worthwhile for aspiring to.
Then this encounter surely puts one nearer the place, where they can claim there is a contender for their Best Cartridge Experienced.
From my end, that is what really counts, is how an encounter has impacted on a person and how they are shaped by such an encounter, at some stage their need to search for further improvement will become less important when satisfying experiences are encountered and if need be, adopted into use.
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pindac, May I call your opproach ''holistic'' and my ''analitic'' . By you everything
is connected witth each other while my approucs is reduction of complexity.
Say reduction of grammar form to : X is P . In place of variable x one can put
whatever ''subject'' one want as well in the place of ''P'' ( aka predicate) as
''property'' or ''quality'' expressions. Try to construct an RELATIONAL STATEMENT
with this grammar form. What I mean is that '''X is P'' is not suitable
for relational .statements which imply more subjects than one. Well comparing
cartridges are such ''many subjects'' statements. ''The best'' means the best
from many while quantifier ALL ''shows'' the problem . Who knows ALL
cartridges ever made? Even Raul with his +100 samples has chosen ADC 26
while owning also Jan Allearts ''formula I'' with many ''sans'' from Jspan..
The same result as empirical approach by dover. We don't know how many he
owns but we do know which he likes the most. I don't believe that his or Raul's choice is , say, ''VERY EXPENSIVE'' . So what is the relation beween price
and ''quality'' of sound?
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Claims that one selection is ubiquitously correct and are the precedent are precious.
From personal experience, most discoveries of a choice made/to be made, that proves to be satisfying and have more attraction over others, are intermittent or even fortuitous.
The choices made by one, and the perceptions of the end experience, are not going to prove ubiquitous to all who choose.
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Lord this is so simple, It is the cartridge you are listening to. It is the only cartridge that matters.
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@nandric. You can say a lot of things about a cartridge without hearing it by virtue of it's design and quality of manufacture. The more experience you have the better.
No, you can not say what the cartridge sounds like but the purchasing decision is more frequently than not made without auditioning the cartridge in the purchaser's system. Not only this but there is wide variation on what "sounds good" means. Most audiophiles have no idea what they are listening too. They have no experience with measurement techniques that tell you what your system and room are doing and the variation between channels. What they think "sounds good" is just what they are use to hearing. Most audiophiles have never heard a system with state of the art imaging.
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IME the kind of cartridge you have matters far less than does the ability of the tonearm to really track it properly. I hear far more dramatic differences on this basis. I've yet to find a tonearm that tracks a wider range of cartridges than the Triplanar; likely this is because its also one of the most adjustable tonearms made.
At any rate the ability of a cartridge to track properly in a given tonearm varies due to the mass and compliance of the cartridge (since that interacts with the mass of the arm). Since @mglik has a Triplanar it follows that we are looking at a subset of all cartridges: those that are most suited for that arm.
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@mijostyn You can say a lot of things about a cartridge without hearing it by virtue of it's design and quality of manufacture
I am curious what your preferences / biases are when evaluating design and manufacturing quality from 'afar'? ( since this will be based not on listening or a physical examination).
Thanks
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I mentioned some problems with quatifier ''ALL'' but would like to say more
about this, uh, ''expression.''.
The first paradox mentioned was about ''Greek liar'' by, uh, the old Greek.
The Greek who stated that ALL Greek are liear''. But becuse he is also Greek...
this means that all are stating truth..
The 'set theoretic paradoxes'' occured by ''SET OF ALL SETS''
If we have no idea about what we talking about than...
Russel try to solve the problem by limiting ''extension of sets''. Aka ''about
which set are we talking ?''
BTW Frega was fthe first who ''placed the problem '' in the context of ''generality'.
We use those terms (quantifier) to express ''generality'' ..In english literture
called ''universality'' and hence: ''universal quantifier'. But the question
''how many'' is anwered by 'numerical quantifier'' . Politians in Euroipe whio
have no idea about this difference caused not only immigrants problems but
alo ''energy problem'' by sanctions against ''all Russian raw materials'' .
Well Europe lack those while Russia owns one third of the world naturl
resources. At present Europe has next to immigrants crisis also ''energy crisis''
caused by polititian who make laws.but have no idea about their implications
The so called ''Club of Rome'' warned about scaricity of row materials in 1972!
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mijostyn, I see you try some other approach than the one in your
previous post. Probable to improve your ''status'' . Alas this will not do,.
We buy ''new carts'' out of curiosity but in order to try. If we are satisfy
after ''listening cesions'' we will keep the cart. Otherwise get rid of it
by (re) reselling the thing.
Thanks to Raul we got the chance to do this ''luxury'' approach for free.
BTW when we look at ''technical specs'' of carts they all look as one
egg to one other, except by Allearts . His are unbelievable but his carts
do not sound better than some other with ''less impresive'' specs.
See Raul's preference for ADC 26 in comparison.
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+1 to atmasphere. The tonearm match is a key variable. Along with the cart output / phono stage match, which also includes a compromise between what you can accept of background noise for getting the best sound. Speaking as a tube enthusiast (converted after many years of investing upwards in solid state without quite getting what I wanted). I play flutes, some guitar, etc - and playing along with the music from the stereo is my sure-fire method of finding what I like and not.
I am not sure, when I prefer my Atlas cart compared to digital streaming, and even (often) my digital recordings from LPs, how much is due to the specific capabilities of the Atlas, and what would be the result with a less costly cart. I am part of a group of music lovers regularily meeting for an evening, hosted by each of us, so we get to hear many music systems. We have an unwritten rule: this is NOT an audio testing and comparison event, who has the best system, and so on. Works fine. And I have learned to listen for the positive aspects of each system, and try to look away from limits and faults. Good idea. We tend to converge, listening to LPs rather than digital, on these evenings - regardless of the low middle or high cost of the cart and the rest of the system. At the same time, I do hear what the Atlas is capable of. Maybe especially, very delicate and refined treble, compared to digital (including 24 - 192 hi res), easy to hear with female vocal like Rosalia: Motomami, for example (digital sounds good; the LP sounds great). Also, the Atlas has fairly "explosive" dynamics, and is no slouch on bass, as others have noted. So I think, all in all, that it is a good idea to invest in a good cart, even if it is costly. This is where the musical information starts, and the job of the rest of the chain is to reproduce it as faithfully as possible.
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Dear @o_holter : " . The digital version is good, but still has a way to go. " my recordings still hold a candle to streaming "
Sure because is a " fake " digital version not an original digital version and because your take is full of subjectivity with out analising for your self what in reality are you listen it through analog. Obviously you don’t care about and you don’t care ( as almost all analog lovers . ) because that’s what you like it: subjectivity again.
Almost always that we are making comments on digital and analog recording experiences almost all of us compare digital listen experience against same LP analog experience and this kind of reference IMHO is way wrong.
I think that not only is way wrong but unnaceptable because both mediums not only are way different but the analog MUSIC information we are listening comes " truncated ": no one analog rig/cartridge can pick up all the recorded information in the LP grooves against digital that’s nearer and truer to the recording . There are other objective reasons why we almost always are comparing airplanes against a banana and you are not alone in this thread because between others M Lavigne did it on that specific regards.
Obviously that to each his own.
All subjectivist gentlemans almost always just diminish objectivity in so hard way that forget of it.
Btw, which your MUSIC reference?
R.
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