What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

@dover Ha-Ha, that's because musicians only think about money. I believe Remington was the first to record in stereo. I'm thinking it was the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra in the 1940's. But I really have to wonder if they're done well or if it just sounds like panning, or the piano in one speaker and everyone else in the other, etc... In many respects, early stereo was a gimmick before it became an art in and of itself. I've got the $1,500.00 EMT mono cartridge on my radar but I need to upgrade my tonearm first. For me, a devoted mono table is financially doable.

@mikelavigne , My answer is simple. Bernie is wrong, dead wrong. Done in 24/192 or above transformations are transparent. The system I use operates in 64 bit floating point so volume does not matter at all. 24/192 recordings of the turntable are indistinguishable from the original unless there is a scratch then the recording sounds better because the scratch is gone. It was removed prior to RIAA correction when its duration is shortest. The "hole" is filled in with a duplicate of the prior millisecond or so of music. Nobody would ever know where there was a scratch.

As @rauliruegas suggests, you can use any audio tool to make things worse. The beauty of digital signal processing is that if used correctly deficiencies in any system (includes the room) can usually be resolved resulting in a dramatic improvement in sound quality. But there are limitations and acoustics have to be managed so that digital corrections are minimal particularly in the bass region or one can rapidly run out of amplifier power. 

There is no system than could not benefit from digital signal processing. Processors are running so fast now that there is virtually no down side unless you are the type that insists on everything remaining analog, the horse and buggy crowd.  

 

Dear @mikelavigne : " we don’t all have to agree on what we hear. but it’s about that. "

The dialogue about digital/analog started in this thread when you posted that your MUSIC recorded reference is a R2R Studer recorder and I posted that from some years to now the MUSIC reference is the digital alternative.

I and other gentlemans posted an explained why is digital the reference beeen a lost-less signal information.

You brougth here the Bernie " feelings " and your own opinion about that’s not under any question because that’s not the main matters/subject but the reference and why.

Please think for a moment what I will try to explain but before that, @dover if you don’t like this thread is your privilege not to read it but it’s our privilege to post what we are posting and you can’t come here to tell us what or not what to do: period. :

 

from many years now all financial transactions in the world including corporation as Wall Street used and are using DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY and through the years that technology showed it works for any financial world corporation. Thank’s to that digital/computer technology the financial world works fantastic and billions of transactions are made it by lower time than a sg. with no error. LOST-LESS signal information.

 

Your car works under digital/computer technology, your cell phone, all world communications of any kind, Hospital and Medical centers works trusting in digital tools and items, Militar world Industry works thank’s to digital/computers, Awero Space Industry works thank’s to digital, automotive industry inside its robotic machines works thank’s to digital, your streaming listen sessions are los-less digital with no " mistakes " and you and your organism works/ with no errors by digital and you and we are alive thank’s to that " technology ".

What you prefer is only an " accident " as is what any of us prefer but not Bernie or any one can prove that digital lost signal information and due to that lost-less characteristic is the recorder MUSIC reference not the Studer’s no matters what. It’s a trusty technology not like the cartridge riding a LP through a pivoted tonearm where all is full of un-accuracies and every time losting information even the cartridge can’t pick-up the 100% of the recorded signal information in those LP grooves and what I say 100%? I think that not even the 80%.

Analog/LP main characteristic is that’s a non-accurated medium when digital is totally/100% accurated. Mike, you can be sure that your overall tonearm/cartridge/TT set up is not 100% accurated no matters what, the tonearm/cartridge alignment and set up parameters are totally non-accurated due that's a mechanical alternative down there. Analog is full of problems/nigthmare and even that I like it but this " I like it " is not the SUBJECT.

Subjectivity has no " place " with because the issue is totally OBJECTIVE.

There is no-return and the best of this new King is forth-coming yet.

 

Mike, take a look to Sony and if you want about audio you can go the Apogee site it’s interesting for every one of us:

https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/products/

https://www.sony.com/en/

R.

Internet, Google, what's-up, facebook, etc, etc, etc and goes on digital

@rauliruegas I'm guessing you didn't read my last post without rancor. Here it is again:

Raul, you seem to be missing something here. Clearly, analog has been competing 'against it' for a very long time.

You don't have to know anything technical to understand this statement! All you have to know is that tape is still being made for analog recorders, that used quality analog recorders command prodigious prices, that new titles are being issued on reel to reel tape and what people say about the tapes and their machines.

If analog could not compete quite simply we wouldn't be having this conversation! Instead it would simply be gone and no further talk about it other than historical context.

It really is that simple.

[emphasis added]

Absolutely and with out any single rancor. Who cares but you?

Dear @mijostyn  : I agree with you and not only to " applaud " you but because we are talking in the same " tunned channel ". Btw, check the @larryi  post, interesting.

 

R.

mijostyn"My answer is simple. Bernie is wrong, dead wrong."

Wow that is remarkable you know more than Bernie Grundman you must be in great demand by the record companies it's amazing you can keep your professional medical, legal, and engineering practices open with such demand for your knowledge please tell us again what analog tape decks you're using I forgot.

@rauliruegas you have made a comparison of dsp for visual and dsp for audio as if they correlate directly in terms of their perceptibility. Do you know this to be the case? ( earlier you mentioned not being very familiar with audio recording, so it caused me to wonder.)

Dear @solypsa : Only to relate that digital is everywhere. Same wit medical instruments or robotics.

 

Btw, @clearthink certainly that mijos can or not in agreement with me and has his personal answer but his statement on Bernie I understand was in specific under that " feeling " that B. mentioned that as I said before at the end means only that just a " feeling " that solve nothing. Yes, in this thread context B. is wrong and what we were discussing is not about " feelling " but clear and precise evidences in favor of digital medium.

 

What BG said was a comment in that non-formal meeting thinking " loud " and maybe under the thread context the answer or comment by BG could be different.

Mike Lavigne brougth BG here thinking that in some way those comments could supports the Mike point of view and was an unfortunated " kind of support " because did not helps for him.

 

Your ironic statement is something " stupid " for say the least, don’t you think?:

 

" Wow that is remarkable you know more than Bernie Grundman you must be in great demand by the record companies...."

In what context/scenario that statement is valid?

 

R.

R.

Only to relate that digital is everywhere. Same wit medical instruments or robotics.

Stupidity is everywhere too, but we don't aspire to that standard.

You'll have to come up with a better argument than that.

 

from many years now all financial transactions in the world including corporation as Wall Street used and are using DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY 

That seems a bit myopic - don't you know many "financial transactions" are completed through hawala compared to Wall Street or indeed the black money market where goods and services are used for financial transfers.

@dover  I think we are seeing  that logic is not someone's strong suit, whatever his pretensions.

If analog could not compete quite simply we wouldn't be having this conversation! Instead it would simply be gone and no further talk about it other than historical context.

Indeed, and many musicians, famous and not so famous, who still prefer to record in analogue would be gone as well.

There are numerous who split their recording - for example use digital for vocals, but analogue for instrumentation.

Each system has its pros and cons. 

Not even analized the whole context/scenario but: Good, now we have posts with the rigth answers that proved and solved the lost-less information digital technology issue ones and for ever.  !   Thank's for that, really useful for every one of us. 

 

@dover  do it a favor and don't make that " great " effort to hit me because you just can't your brain is not good enough for and then you will down in a depression. Is up to you.

 

R 

 

Even the fruitless discussion of "what is the best cartridge" was more interesting than this banter about digital vs analog.  None of the protagonists is ever going to be dissuaded from his or her point of view, so best to live and let live. However, it's interesting to me that digital is taken as "lossless".  The Holy Grail of digital is certainly lossless-ness, but digital by its very nature can only approach lossless-ness.  Modern hi-rez digital streaming certainly gets very close to that goal or closer than ever before in the history of digital music and perhaps has already exceeded in its lossless-ness our capacity to sense "loss".  At least for some of us. Meantime, analog is lossless by its nature but nevertheless "loses" something due to distortion producing aspects of its methods.

So, what's the best cartridge?

Absolutely and with out any single rancor. Who cares but you?

@rauliruegas 

Apparently you or you'd not have responded. Based on other's responses others apparently do too.

Mike Lavigne brougth BG here thinking that in some way those comments could supports the Mike point of view and was an unfortunated " kind of support " because did not helps for him.

There is an alternative explanation as well 😁

I recommend if you can, get one of the more respected Reel to Reel tape machines (like a Studer) get it properly refurbished and see for yourself. To make comments lacking the experience to back them up is absurd.

 

 

@atmasphere who currently makes reel to reel tape? Just wondering.

Dear @lewm : " was more interesting than this banter about digital vs analog. ",

obviopusly that that is for you but everything were said/posted on the issue thread with no single doubt to add nothing about.

 

In the other side your " banter " subject is interesting for some other gentlemans but you when they posted about and that " banter " really started when ML posted on that complete " analog/LP " characteristic vs the incomplete digital version, that was what he stated here and latter on he posted something as " digital at any single step is a reference ". Along all those he posted in other thread that in his system streaming listened experience he touted the " completness " of digital and he named what he was enjoying that time.

Controversial point of views and that’s why I asked to know what means his " complete " against " incomplete " mediums characteristics but he never gaves us an explanation that I think because he does not wanted to does.

For me, everything is clear from 10 years now on that regards, good that for you is not interesting subject. Btw, normally when I talk of analog I’m reffering mainly to the LP alternative.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

who currently makes reel to reel tape? Just wondering.

@goofyfoot see https://www.atrtape.com/

ATR Magnetics makes cassettes as well as reel to reel tape.

Are you " crazy " ( at least ) or what?

 

"  up is absurd "  if it's then don't following your futile " rummage "?

 

I already said: who cares but you?

I get accused of being crazy all the time 😉

I don't follow your word salad, the second question.

Do you want a list of names or is that rhetorical?

Again, if no-one cared or analog could not compete this would not be a conversation. We would be doing something else 😁

"To make comments lacking the experience to back them up is absurd"

i used the word silly to express the same thought.

listen to the gear, tell us what you hear. or know you will not be taken seriously. do the work. i acquired the cartridges, listened, and said what i heard about the original question. expressed my listening opinion.

tell us about your opinion about the best cartridge.

@mikelavigne 

tell us about your opinion about the best cartridge.

He cant. He spent over 10 years trying to convince everyone that MM's were as good as the best MC's, but apparently after an epiphany has recently concluded that nothing can touch his favourite LOMC.

I figured out he had no idea after he started making erroneous comments on rare cartidges I actually own. Example being the Dynavector Karat nova 13D - at first he tried to claim a Karat Nova 17D was actually a 13D, then after I explained the difference and serial number nomenclature, he got another ( second hand ) one.

But the apex of lunacy arrived when he advertised a "real" Dynavector Karat Nova 13D here on audiogon with the cartridge mounted in the unique headshell upside down - (1st video below ) Furthermore it appeared to have a non original cantilever - Frankenstein ( 2nd video ). This from someone who claims to be an expert.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear @mikelavigne  :  " i used the word silly to express..."

If it's silly then who cares to follows posting? obviously you cared.

" about the original question.  "

 

Well, in my first post I posted my opini'on and here pasted:

 

"""  Congratulations for those both new cartridges you own.

Your question could be controversial because any cartridge quality performance levels depends on with what kind of quality analog rig ( inlcuding phono stage. ) is surrounded and depends too of each cartridge owner skills for its accurated overall set up.

Cartridges as yours or coming from VDH or Ortofon or Koetsu or the Etsuro or, or, or,... are the best for its owners but at the top cartridge models in reality I agree with @mattmiller : no best but a little different. Every one of us have our own and very specifics targets and priorities with MUSIC/sound reproduction. 

Btw, maybe both of your cartridge could be best " serv " by a different tonearm and obviously a different better phonolinepreamp. At both sides you will experience better SQ with both cartridges that the one you are experienced rigth now. ""

 

Contrary to you and even that through your posts exist contradictions I never posted that's that contradiction is " silly " or any other agressive adjective but the other way around because I care of what you say and asked you 3 times to explain your words used for analog/LP and digital: complete and incomplete respectively.

Now and for the four time you are refusing to give us your answer to us. You are still refusing about even that even the gentlemans that like to " applaud "  want to know.

 

I really hope and wait for your explanation of those words used as characteristic by analog/LP and digital MUSIC reproduction alternatives in a home audio system.

 

Mike, that is the real issue not any more the thread question.

Now, I appreciated that instead to stay in " dead silent " status quo at least  tell us that you don't want to explain about . That's it.  Remember that Those were your  " words " not mines and from there came almost the next thread posts till now.

R.

 

You posted something contrary of what you are asking me:

" fair enough, my source is second hand feedback from other users. "  

Another second hand comment:

"  he says the DaVa Reference is looking those level in the eye (at 1/3rd to 1/6th the price) and he is very impressed...."

 

Look:

"

analog is complete. complete wins hands down. every time.

i listen to digital for access to new music and for ease of use. listen to digital 60-70% of the time. but ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step "

but before that you posted that streaming " digital completeness ". How could that happened to you?

 and I'm not telling that that is " silly ". Why should I?

 

 

 

 

Great discussion!

@clearthink , I owned a Revox A77 for a decade and we had a Studer at the shop I worked with down in Miami. We recorded chamber concerts with it and used it for demonstrating big systems including the HQD system. Mr Grundman's opinion is dead wrong. Everyone is entitled to be dead wrong on occasion. There is no accounting for bias. 

@atmasphere, ​​@rauliruegas I wish you guys would kiss and make up.

For me it is not a battle between analog and digital. The fact of the matter is we all listen in analog. Digital sounds pretty awful, screeching would be the best description. Analog is always the end game. But, digital can also be used to make analog sound better with less noise, distortion and phase/time incoherence. Digital can also be used to crossover speakers more accurately and correct amplitude errors. All these things are impossible to do in the analog world without imposing significant errors.

Back to the DaVa. It is not a cartridge I would buy sight unseen and unheard. IMHE cartridges made by cottage industry manufacturers have quality issues and their very existence is tenuous at best. I have no difficulty buying an Ortofon MC Diamond sight unseen and unheard because I am very comfortable with the manufacturer and technology behind it. Also IMHE, products that stand out sonically at first listen are usually in error somewhere. It is the products that do not stand out sonically at first listen that are usually accurate and additional listening will bear that out. 

I wish you guys would kiss and make up.

@mijostyn FWIW  dept.: I don't attack anyone on this site as a person, I respond to correct false narrative or provide additional information. I use simple logic to do it, not personal attacks (personal attacks violate the forum rules). If I don't respond to misinformation, misinformation will be what exists instead. I've used that technique with everyone on this site and a very few seem to take it personally (apparently for reasons well outside my control)- most of whom have have gotten banned without any help from me. 

I don't have a battle with analog or digital either. If you recall, Raul said (paraphrasing) that 'analog couldn't compete' but all you have to do is to walk into a record store to know that isn't true- if it were true they wouldn't sell LPs! That seems pretty simply logic to me and nothing to get upset about.

The idea of Raul and Ralph kissing is to say the least, not attractive. 

Dear @mijostyn : " we all listen in analog. "

Not really but it’s what we all always think about. Exist a lot of evidence that one way or the other our organism: brain/body " listen in " digital ".

Thtat could be controversial too because goes against what we " learned " that in reality do not learned in formal way. Take a look to this first evidence where you can read: ( the link of how the ears works will be at the end of this post:):

 

"" this membrane is in contact with the cilia on the top of the hair cells. There are two kinds of hair cells. The outer hair cells are the actual receptors. When the tectorial membrane moves, so does the hair on the the outer cells. This movement is then encoded into electrical digital signals and goes to the brain through the cochlear nerve. and.....................................................

 

With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. ""

 

I posted in this thread that we listen through all our body: bones, skin, hair, etc, etc , etc ( that’s why we can " listen " very deep/low bass sensing its vibrations that are communicated to the brain by high speed electric impulses ( not goes in a row/continuous way. ) by neuro transmiters/nerves terminations that exist in our whole internal/external/body and obviously some information goes to the brain trhough our ears and goes in digital way.

All our internal/external body/organs works through those high speed electric impulses. How is the communication inside the brain or how a neurologist specialist knows if something is wrong down there: normally through an encephalogram that measures the electrical activity of the brain showed in a graphic/diagram that was achieved by that digital electrical activity and same happens with our heart that works too by electrical impulses and that’s what a cardiologist looks through the chart coming from an electrocardiogram study.

 

There are more evidences that we don’t listen in analog but for me those is enough:

 

R.

I had a customer who was phobic and often listened whilst checking his prostate. He often gave seat of the pants opinions on sound quality. Perhaps you could explain is he listening in analogue or digital ?

Have you had the wax removed from your ears ?

More related information about hearing/sound:

 

 

"" A crucial event in the hearing process is the transduction of mechanical stimuli into electrical signals by hair cells, the sensory receptors of the internal ear. Stimulation results in the rapid opening of ionic channels in the mechanically sensitive organelles of these cells, their hair bundles. These transduction channels, which are nonselectively permeable, are directly excited by hair-bundle displacement. """

 

 

""" Bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects. When speech signals were modulated into the ultrasonic range, listening to words resulted in the clear perception of the speech stimuli and not a sense of high-frequency vibration. """

 

 

""" 

There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz!
A Survey of Musical Instrument Spectra to 102.4 KHz

---

James Boyk
California Institute of Technology
Music Lab, 0-51 Caltech, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA
Tel: +626 395-4590, E-mail: boyk@caltech.edu
Home: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab

Copyright © 1992, 1997 James Boyk. All rights reserved.

 " Each musical instrument family — strings, winds, brass and percussion — has at least one member which produces energy to 40 kHz or above. Some of the spectra reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz.
       Harmonics of French horn can extend to above 90 kHz; trumpet, to above 80; violin and oboe, to above 40; and a cymbal crash shows no sign of running out of energy at 100 kHz. Also shown in this paper are samples from sibilant speech, claves, a drum rimshot, triangle, jangling keys, and piano.
       The proportion of energy above 20 kilohertz is low for most instruments; but for one trumpet sample it is 2%; for another, 0.5%; for claves, 3.8%; for a speech sibilant, 1.7%; and for the cymbal crash, 40%. The cymbal's energy shows no sign of stopping at the measurement limit, so its percentage may be much higher.
      The spectra in this paper were found by recording each instrument's sound into a spectrum analyzer, then "prospecting" moment by moment through the recordings. Two instruments (clarinet and vibraphone) showed no ultrasonics, and so are absent here. Other instruments' sounds extended high up though at low energy. A few combined ultrasonic extension with power.
      The mere existence of this energy is the point of this paper, and most of the discussion just explains why I think that the spectra are correct, within the limits described below. At the end, however, I cite others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound, and offer a few remarks on the possible relevance of our spectra to human perception and music recording.

Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]
      Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.
      From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.
      The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published.  ""

 

 

 

Abstract

At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Harmonics of muted trumpet extend to 80 kHz; violin and oboe, to above 40 kHz; and a cymbal crash was still strong at 100 kHz. In these particular examples, the proportion of energy above 20 kHz is, for the muted trumpet, 2 percent; violin, 0.04 percent; oboe, 0.01 percent; and cymbals, 40 percent. Instruments surveyed are trumpet with Harmon ("wah-wah") and straight mutes; French horn muted, unmuted and bell up; violin sul ponticello and double-stopped; oboe; claves; triangle; a drum rimshot; crash cymbals; piano; jangling keys; and sibilant speech. A discussion of the significance of these results describes others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound; and points out that even if ultrasound be taken as having no effect on perception of live sound, yet its presence may still pose a problem to the audio equipment designer and recording engineer.

Dear friends: Normally I don’t give answers to stupid posts.

Anyway I would like to comment this:

 

this thread is about phono cartridges that are used to track LPs: Rigth?, the forum name is " Analog " not LPs: Rigth?, almost all the audiophiles that posted in this thread if not all has an analog rig that use to listen LPs: Rigth? all of us accepted that analog rig means: TT/tonearm/cartridge ( at least and some times + phono stage preamp). Rigth? when ML posted the word " complete " was in reference to listen LPs: Rigth?, here in Agon when any one of us speaks of analog is in reference to LPs: Rigth?

In one of my last two posts any one can read:

 

"" Btw, normally when I talk of analog I’m reffering mainly to the LP alternative. ""

 

As a fact I almost never talk of tape in Agon but LPs, cartridges, tonearms, phono stages, turntables, tonearm/cartridge alignments, tonearm/cartridge parameters set up and the like.

Here I was and am talking of the quality superiority of the digital alternative over the LP alternative.

 

" walk into a record store to know that isn’t true- if it were true they wouldn’t sell LPs! "

 

and of course that can’t compete vs digital alternative NO MATTERS WHAT.

 

In a wine store I can buy a California Red Wine and in the same store a Chateau Lafite but the California wine can’t compete against the higher quality Lafite wine ! ! ! ? ? ?

 

Silly, for say the least.

 

R.

Raul, in your own experience, what is the best sounding cartridge? Did you hear it in your own system or someone else’s? Thanks.

@atmasphere , For every one person who buys an LP 10,000 people buy a digital file. LPs are certainly making a comeback but I have a feeling that will extinguish with the Zoomer generation. But, who knows.

@rauliruegas , you forget what my profession is. Your brain has absolutely no idea what to do with a succession of ones and zeros. We only hear digital after it is converted to analog. I know you Mexicans hate us Americans but we make some darn good wine now. 

I had a customer who was phobic and often listened whilst checking his prostate. He often gave seat of the pants opinions on sound quality. Perhaps you could explain is he listening in analogue or digital ?

How many bits on that digit? 😂

Dear @mijostyn : In reality it’s not a LP come back. What exist is a LP recording manufacturers making huge money mainly with re-issues and yes exist people that for curiosity go inside the whole LP " mess ". Not really a come back with 100% analog recording proccess and that is their way of living, nothing wrong with that. Take advantage of those audiophiles that like to own every single kind of " new " re-issue of the MUSIC they like and that’s all. Maybe never will disappears due that exist millions of gentlemans around the world with huge LP collections, I don’t know what could be happens when all those kind of generation ( where some of us belongs. ) die.

Today LP alternative for new people is really expensive to achieve a quality near digital today CDP that any one can buys for 400 bucks and the CD’s does not set you back 120 dollars . As I said: a " mess ".

You are wrong, as a country we don’t hate any one. In all countries exist every kind of people but no we hate not any foreigner people only because is foreigner or from USA. Btw, remember that America is all our Continent that is a set of different countries and USA as México are part of them, you as me are Americans becaus ewe belongs to the American Continent even that I don't born in USA but México or other different country in this Continent.

Btw, till today USA/México/Aregentina or Chile red wines can’t compete with the best French wines or Spain ones ( in all those named countries are very good wines but away from the untouchable French/Spain top ones. ). Of course that the best European red wines has a really high price tag but to really enjoy it we have to have an experienced " taste " about. It’s not only about money but knowledge level, just as audio home system reproduction: true knowledge level is the name of the game.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : The sound that goes inside our ears is an analog signal that we can't listen because is analog and that's why is in the internal ears an ADC. Read again here:

 

With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. ""

Those hair cells are the transducers, binary transducer and not zeros and ones. As you said our brain has no idea of those numbers but only the binary transduced information.

 

No one ( even scientific. ) knows for sure and in deep how our organism function. Medical specialist have an idea about founded in all the years in the University and day by day experiences.

The in deep brain whole operation step by step till today is almost unknowed. The scientific say that the human been brain is knowed at no more of the 20% of its whole real operation.

Any kind of live life in our planet but specialy the human been is almost  " miraculous ".

Think for a moment of a small muscle/pump named heart that is running ( as all other organs. ) and can do it for even over 100 years with out stopped not even by 2-3 minutes to rest and is a muscle.

Which machine or item made it by the human beens could do it and with out maintenance services? it function by electricity and we don't have a cable but its wroks in wireless status.   

 

R.

Actually the brain is an analogue processor, so I would assume that if one were brainless, then indeed digital may be best option. However for most of us, with more than the one brain cell, we find great pleasure in listening to analogue.

Without being able to measure the response, are you sure that you are finding the Lyra better meets the loading of your phono input?  You might want to explore both capacitive and resistance loadings on your cartridges to determine if, for example, you can make your older cartridge sound more like the Lyric.  From my own experience with moving coil  cartridges over the years, getting extended flat frequency response without any/much high frequency peaking below 20-25k seem to be a key to "more realistic" sound, including kettle drums and cymbals.

@rauliruegas , I hope you did not take my Mexican comment seriously. But, to get a French Cab better than Say a Duckhorn or Rombauer you would have to spend a fortune. For most people the above wines are a fortune. The problem for us is much of the best French wines stay in France. We shall see as the wife and I are going to cycle through Provence next Summer. And, buy the way, everything the French know they were taught by the Italians and my absolute favorite wine is the Antenori Tignanello. I do not think you can touch a bottle for less than $125 now.

Digital rules, but analog is fun (if you have the money.)

As for our ears I disagree with that analogy. Yes, the individual hair cells are an on or off proposition. Each one contributes to a voltage. The Voltages are added up to make an analog wave form. They do not trigger a one or a two. If anything it is more similar to pulse width modulation. 

@dover , Speak for yourself. I can listen to a fax tone for hours:-)

Raul,

nothing personal regarding my dropping out of this discussion.

i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. unfortunately a frequent Audiogon experience. and honestly the Audiogon interface is very frustrating to navigate compared to any other forum. too much noise, not enough signal, to hold my attention.

@dover 

 

"But the apex of lunacy arrived when he advertised a "real" Dynavector Karat Nova 13D here on audiogon with the cartridge mounted in the unique headshell upside down."

 

it's nice to see credit still being given where its due.

When it comes to audio ingenuity often goes hand in hand with innovation.

 

Unfortunately, most of the time, not always successfully.

 

@mikelavigne 

i simply do not see the value to me in this thread.

 

Well, these 'what's best' questions have never once led to a definitive answer in my opinion.

If only they did, wouldn't life be so much simpler?

I remember back in the day when there were only 3 turntables to consider, only 3 amps to bother with, and just half a dozen speakers.

 

Or so I was led to believe, until eventually it all turned out to be opiniated rubbish of course.

I shall now answer the OP's question. The best cartridge in the world is always the one I have mounted at the moment.

For every one person who buys an LP 10,000 people buy a digital file.

@mijostyn 

That may well be. I see it slightly differently, which is this:

In reality it’s not a LP come back. What exist is a LP recording manufacturers making huge money mainly with re-issues and yes exist people that for curiosity go inside the whole LP " mess ".

Apparently the LP sells well enough that record stores exist and make a living selling them. That economic can't be ignored.

New titles (not reissues) are being pressed all the time. So the above quote from Raul is false. Most of the market has nothing to do with audiophiles- its record companies selling LPs to kids. Or old people like me that like new music. Heck, I just bought some Lana Del Ray LPs off ebay and they aren't reissues :)

For every one person who buys an LP 10,000 people buy a digital file.

Let's fix that.  For every one person who buys an LP two people buy a digital file.

Vinyl LP Sales Hit New Highs in 2021, Surpassed CDs – Billboard

@atmasphere , I agree! I by current music on LP all the time. There is plenty of money to be made on LPs but it is no where what it use to be in the 70's.

My children love music. They turn me on to new music all the time like Black Midi. They have absolutely no interest in LPs. They represent the vast majority of young people. If I were a betting man I would bet LPs will be dead within 50 years. I won't be here to see it. I spin records because I have been doing it all my life from the age of 4 and like most humans I hate change. If I look at my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files. What does that say?

@mijostyn

+1

Absolutely. The resurgence happened in response to the unending disappointment in the CD. But at last digital… both CD and more importantly streaming has reached equal or better (high Rez streaming) sound quality in many component combinations and will continue advancing. Without the sound quality advantage vinyl just becomes nostalgic.

 

Absolutely. The resurgence happened in response to the unending disappointment in the CD. But at last digital… both CD and more importantly streaming has reached equal or better (high Rez streaming) sound quality in many component combinations and will continue advancing. Without the sound quality advantage vinyl just becomes nostalgic.

Well... The LP has continued to advance as well. QRP (Acoustic Sounds) sorted out that vibration was the primary cause of surface noise in LPs and so installed damping to reduce it- and makes vastly quieter LPs as a result, rivaling the noise floor of Redbook in that the electronics become the noise floor rather than the LP itself.

Then there have been advances in amplifiers; before I sold off my LP mastering system I was really thinking of replacing the original mastering amplifiers (which were state of the art in their day) with some class D modules, perhaps our own, as they are more stable, more reliable, lower noise and lower distortion.

Finally the real limitations of the LP are in playback, not record; tonearms and cartridges have continued to improve. So while this is all incremental, saying the LP doesn't have the sound quality is a bit of a stretch- its still got potential just as digital does.

Dear @mijostyn  : " my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files.  "

 

What does that say? , its says what you states.

 

Mijo, there are different contexts where any one could be rigth.  Normally audiophiles aroun sites as Agon, wbt, ve,  ak and the like bougth digital LP re-issues and some ( the smaller ) new realeases and normally we buy through: ed, md or as. You can go to all those sites and read that the people that buy LPs normally are re-issues.

USA is only one of de world countries and belongs to one of five world continents. I want to put an example of wht'a happening in my country where exist around 35KK of young people and where just does not exist LP stores and the audio dealers you can count with the fingers of your hands and nothing more. The majority of those people not even know of the existence of vinyl and almost all use streaming to listen the MUSIC they like. You can see in the subway or in the street those young gentlemans listening MUSIC through they cell phones through apps as tiktok, spotify, prime amazon and the like.Do you think that in the countries of Africa exist " hundreds " of LP stores? however the KKK people there listen MUSIC through streaming/apps digital and you can go around other world Continents and you will see.

Well the majority of the population in the world are  those kind of people that does not cares about analog rig but only " listen " and they does in that way. Along that there are thousands of " hackers " that listen by free as many world plattforms where you can listen by free and no suscription at all.

In that whole context my post is not false in any way. Period.

Nothing is exactly as Billboard says.

 

In reality I don't care on that issue because from some time now, like it or not, digital is the King no matters what.

R.

 

 

 

 

@atmasphere 

Well... The LP has continued to advance as well. QRP (Acoustic Sounds) sorted out that vibration was the primary cause of surface noise in LPs and so installed damping to reduce it- and makes vastly quieter LPs as a result, rivaling the noise floor of Redbook in that the electronics become the noise floor rather than the LP itself.

 

That might well be the case but there's absolutely no denying that there were some fabulous sounding LPs made back as far as at least the 1950s.

The best sound that I have ever heard came from one such LP.

It had that spooky 'Is it real?' soundstage that I've yet to hear from any digital.

 

I would love to see digital finally fulfill its potential on commercial releases, especially regarding dynamic range and transference of classic analogue masters etc, but I'm resigned to the fact that market forces will never allow such a thing to happen.

The demand for sonic excellence just isn't there, and I suspect the suppliers have no stomach for putting out reference quality digital recordings of vintage material out there either.

Why would they, when they can continue to milk that cow indefinitely?

 

For me, as things stand, digital only really displays its forte with formats such as audiobooks where it reigns supreme.

Everywhere else it's only merely acceptable.

 

That might well be the case but there’s absolutely no denying that there were some fabulous sounding LPs made back as far as at least the 1950s.

The best sound that I have ever heard came from one such LP.

It had that spooky ’Is it real?’ soundstage that I’ve yet to hear from any digital.

 

I would love to see digital finally fulfill its potential on commercial releases, especially regarding dynamic range and transference of classic analogue masters etc, but I’m resigned to the fact that market forces will never allow such a thing to happen.

😀 If I want to demo the dynamic range of a stereo, the LP I put on is the RCA Soria series Verdi Requiem, side 1 track two, Dies Irae. Not a CD and not some digitally recorded LP.

The simple fact is that the LP has a lot more dynamic range than most people think. It may not be as much as the CD, but if you want to talk about undistorted high resolution dynamic range, it has more. I know people are likely tired of hearing stuff like this, but you have two phenomena for why this is so:

The first is that recordings made for digital release have a high expectation of being played in a car (unlike the LP). So due to that industry expectation, which has nothing to do with genre BTW, the digital release is usually compressed.

The second is that if you really want to hear 16 bit digital (Redbook) at its best, the recording should be normalized so that the loudest part of any track is 0VU. As the signal strength goes down, more and more bits have to be turned off. So when you get to -45dB (which is pretty quiet) there’s not enough bits for the signal to be undistorted (which, in digital parlance, is usually referred to as ’less resolution’). So to get maximum resolution the recording is normalized.

Of course the LP has noise so its a bit of a tradeoff. Anyway, that Soria series recording goes from a whisper with which the noise floor competes to putting your amps in danger of extreme overload if you try to play it at a lifelike level. Lots of fun- big bass too 😁