What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

Dear @larryi  "" My experience with field coils is more in the way of speakers, and I have heard several systems with both a solid state and a tube power supply for the magnets.  I was frankly shocked, and somewhat disappointed, that the tube power supply sounded considerably better.  ""

ASre you telling that the same field coil speakers that you listened came with both different power supply designs as an owner choice good alternative?

I posted almost the same question to @mikelavigne  about the DaVa cartridge Reference and now that I did a little research on the DaVa seems to me that comes with tube power supply only, noth both kind of power supply but ML is an owner a he knows better on that cartridge regards.

 

R.

Since a power supply for a coil in a field coil cartridge only has to produce smooth DC, I think, what after all is the difference between a tube power supply and a solid-state power supply for such a device? Is it merely the use of tube rectification? And I guess probably there would be voltage regulation, also done with tubes versus transistors.

after a few more days listening to the DaVa Reference, my ears tell me that this cartridge plays at the very tip top of cartridge performance. can’t comment on other field coil cartridge efforts, this one is the real deal and a serious effort.

whether you believe in a tubed power supply or a solid state power supply is not the issue here (a $1500 to $2000 price difference).

i know how it stacks up against my own references, a friend has the top level DS Audio Master One, and has also had the Grand Master. he says the DaVa Reference is looking those level in the eye (at 1/3rd to 1/6th the price) and he is very impressed.

there is a 6 month wait time right now to get one.

@inna

 

As an aside, it might be worth asking whether the ’world’s best cartridge’ would also happen to be the world’s best tracking cartridge?

 

 

Still, isn't it remarkable that whatever the analogue front end, nothing so far seems to be able to extract everything there is out of the groove ?

Is it the same situation with the tape ? 

Raul,

On several occasions I heard A system I am familiar with that had a replacement solid state power supply in it while it’s regular tungar tube power supply was being worked on or was out on loan to someone else.  Both times I commented on the sound being “off” when I didn’t even know that the solid state supply was being used.  In a different system, a friend of mine tried his Feastrix solid state power supply in place of another tungar supply, for a direct comparison, and again the tube supply was superior.  The drivers that were involved were Western Electric 555 midrange compression drivers.  It is a mystery to me why there should be much of a difference, one way or the other because in these instances, the supply is only being asked to deliver 24 volts dc.

Just a rhetorical question. If you are buying 15k, 20k or even a 30k cartridge I'm assuming you already have a 40k, 50k, 75k turntable and maybe a 20k plus tonearm? Not to mention the price of a phono stage and the associated cables. 

Maybe, but I know some people with Thorens 124 or Garrard 301 or 401 tables and  top Koetsus.  A local dealer put together a $1.5 million system with a reconditioned 124 and Koetsu Blue Lace.  

i hate to reduce things to dollars as a justification. lots of vintage tt’s that are very capable have more reasonable acquisition costs.

my three tt’s are not cheap. the CS Port LFT1 including the linear tracking arm is currently listing around $55k. my Saskia lists at $54k with one arm board. i have 7 arm boards. my Wave Kinetics NVS tt lists at $50k. two of my tone arms are the $15k Durand Tosca. one is my new $28k Primary Control FCL.

the point is that it does take a certain level of turntable to enable arms and cartridges to not be held back. i’ve owned the NVS for 11 years. i bought the CS Port new 4 years ago, and the Saskia used 4 years ago. so these are part of a long term plan of system building. i wanted to have a great direct drive tt, belt driven tt, and idler tt to enjoy each drive type at a high level.

Regarding field coil ps variables @atmasphere has posted in the topic. Maybe he can help us here ( yet again )

Curious on everyones experience regarding cartridge break-in? Over my 40 yrs of listening to a few dozen different cartridges most have taken, on average, 10-15 hrs. I just received a MSL and I'm at 18 hrs and finally it's just starting to "sing". I'm told it requires closer to 50 hrs to be fully broken-in. Your experience?

Regarding field coil ps variables @atmasphere has posted in the topic. Maybe he can help us here

I doubt it. I'd be very concerned about adding the wires needed to power the field coil. They would have to stiffen up the arm since they would have to travel past/thru its bearings. That would introduce a variable that might not be taken into account when making assessments.

 

Yeah, $12k cartridge would normally mean $100k front end, including phono stage, tonearm cable and power cords. So it's $250k-$300k for the entire system. Hell, you can still buy a house for this kind of money. Sorry, couldn't help it.

Dear @inna  : Nothing can do it, the LP playing is a " nigthmare " but we like it.

 

Tape has its own problems too but in some way differents, nothing is perfect " but " digital.

 

R.

Dear @lewm  : You are rigth: only smooth DC. So, in the worst case has not to be a difference with that cartridge but @mikelavigne  not yet share with us if that DaVa comes with the choice of both power supplies.

 

R.

Dear @mikelavigne  : " whether you believe in a tubed power supply or a solid state power supply is not the issue here . "

Well, you was who posted about before my post and that's why I still ask on that regards.

 

"  (at 1/3rd to 1/6th the price) "

Mike wht's the DaVa Refrence retail price? and @larryi  and due that you already listen to it : do you know the price tag for the Audio Note?

Thank's in advance for both of you.

 

R.

ok, maybe you have not understood my answers about the power supply for the DaVa cartridge.🙄

here is the messgae the DaVa builder, Darius, sent me in January regarding the power supply choices. i went with the 1500 euro choice. plus 6000 euro for the cartridge, plus, as i recall, 400 euro for shipping,

The standard SS Psu is included in the price. I offer some more:1. The tube Psu in black metal box with PI 82 small tubes - 1300 Eur. 2. The tube Psu with big EY 500 tubes in closed metal black box - 1500 Eur. 3. The artisan wooden Psu with big open tubes - 1800 Eur.

On the Grado Epoch 3... How the hell does a $13K cartridge have an elliptical stylus?  At least give me a microline or similar. Can you imagine shelling 13K for a cart and hearing IGD?  That would hurt.  On topic, there is no best cartridge, like there is not best speaker.  Depends on one's system and ears. At the ultra high end cartridge level, one should expect very wide channel separation (at least 35dB plus), superb tracking and very wide frequency response at the very least.  The OP's Atlas has that.  It's all personal preference at any level, but one wouldn't expect a spherical, conical, or elliptical stylus on a cartridge at the uber high level. 

It all depends on how you look at it.

There are many fine sounding cartridges out there but there are certain criteria that to my way of thinking have to be met before considering the sonic characteristics of a cartridge. The first and most important is tracking ability. If a cartridge can not track everything I throw at it it is worthless to me. A cartridge has to track better than 80um or I am not interested. Thus, the Etsuro Gold is not a cartridge I would ever look at and I have just spent $35,000 on cartridges meaning it is not a financial issue.  From a technical perspective the new MC Diamond is going to be a more accurate performer and it can handle 80 um. Technology trumps artisanship when it comes to phonograph cartridges but, you have to understand the Japanese mentality when it comes to issues like cutting blades and phonograph cartridges which are endowed with the unique spirit of their creator. It is spiritual. 

The next important issue is the stylus. It has to be a fine line design of the highest quality. Each type of stylus has significant variations in quality even within the same manufacturer. I am beginning to think from what I have seen so far is that the styluses of the more expensive cartridges are hand selected. The better styluses with a larger contact patch are the ones that are really quiet because they glide over small imperfections other styluses with smaller contact patches fall into. 

What I find more interesting is how much these cartridges actually sound alike than different.  

You would have to be out of your mind to buy a Decca cartridge. They are not very popular for a good reason.

There is only one accurate. Everything else is not, euphonic or not.

Dear @mikelavigne  : I think that my misunderstood came from what you posted:

 

" the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply "

Than's for your last post where appeared not one but 3 different tube power suplies with no SS one.

 

Btw, " projects lots of energy and life. "  :

Obviously that exist different levels but those DaVa characteristics you named are shared by cantilever-less cartridge designs as the Ikeda REX9 and others.

There is no doubt that cartridge field coil design means a " different " quality level than other cartridge design principles ( motor. ) but the DaVa comes with 2 different " principles ": catilever-less and field coil. How much for one and how much of that quality for the other. Yes, at the ends only is important its overall quality level but ??....

The field coil principle can't recovery what the DaVa design cantilever-less can't pick-up from the LP grooves due that it is not ( no one cantilever-less is. ) good tracker.

 

Taking in count those facts could be interesting that an Audio Note I/O LOMC owner that along owns the I/O field coil could chime here on it because both cartridges are the same but the generator variable.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

"You would have to be out of your mind to buy a Decca cartridge."

I'll just sit here and drool and twitch!

If you are talking about supposed tracking issues, I have to say I have never had any such problems with either the undamped SME M10 or the damped Series V. I will admit they increase surface noise, and that has inspired me to become fanatical about record cleaning (and that's a good idea anyway as you cannot clean the stylus with anything other than a dry brush). If I outlive my Deccas, the plan is to get a Soundsmith strain gauge as a replacement, unless someone swoops in to continue the business.

I’ve been listening to the DaVa FC-1 (the lower-range model vs the Reference that MikeL has) for several months now. I bought it used with both SS and tubed power supplies and hadn’t bothered listening to the SS one until I saw this thread.

After a quick comparison, the difference is pretty obvious. The SS has more impact, the tubed more nuance, subtlety (though with still very saturated transients--not pulling punches in the least).

Also about this cart, in addition to having field coil magnets, it has a cactus quill cantilever, a conical stylus and I believe like the AT ART1000, the coil is attached very close to the stylus.

The best?

Always the next one ☝️

 

The problem with High End is the price tag. All think, the higher the price, the better it is.
Analog reproduction is a chain, the best cartridge can’t shine when the phono stage is not on par, same with Tonearm, cable, Preamp and so on and on

 

and finally, the old story… 3 Audiophiles listen … 3 opinions …

 

or, let’s be honest, imagine there is really the best cartridge out there BUT RSP would be 2500$ … do you really think, the audiophile community would accept it ?
I don’t think so

I try to understand the premise or assertion on which the ''conclusions '' are

based' . Those are called  in logic and mathematics  ''universal quantors''.

Those are in contra dsistinction with ''numerical''. Numerical name the numbers

of ''indicviduals'' involved while ''universal'' don't;

The formula e for universal kinds is:

''for all x Fx & Gx''  

'There are exacltly 100.000 members of A'gon forum.''  is the numerical.

One of Tarski's '''theories  of thruth'' is called 'truth by satisfaction''..

In the formula  above this means that all members of set ''x'' satisfy

conditions F and G. If there is one contra example or ''one x'' which does

not satisfay both F and G condiions  the (general) statement is NOT TRUE.

''All '' is not a name with refering function so we can't know to what  ''it''

refers to. In writeing an statement with ''all '' in the  ''subject place'' we

only assumet to to have said something sensible .

That is why numerical quantors explain ''universal''. because we know

the number of individuals to which ''it'' refers.

European commission decided that ''all immigrants'' have te right foir asylum procedure''. But each country has laws which determine condition which

''asylum immigrants'' NEED to satisfy to get an Asylum. The most do not

satisfy those conditions and will not get one. Well the (whole) European commission had no idea what ''all'' means so Europe got immigrants from ''everywhere''. The whole Africa in addition to Syria. Holland for example

has no place to put them.. While there is no possibility to return them

to their countires because those  will not accept them back.

I hope that the ''SENSE'' of the question iin casu is well explained?

 

 

  

One more thing about field coil cartridges--the Audio Note cartridge got quite hot; I did not dare to touch the Denon 103 modified to be a field coil cartridge, so I don't know if it too gets hot.

There are other somewhat exotic designs out there that I've heard, although it has been quite a few years since hearing some of them.  I thought that the field effect transistor cartridge was interesting in design, and it sounded pretty good.  This cartridge uses a permanently charged electret attached to the cantilever as the gate element in a field effect transistor.  This cartridge required a power supply and wiring to feed juice to the cartridge.

Recently, I heard the Audio Technica ART 1000 cartridge which has two small loops of wire fixed to a tiny plate that attaches to the cantilever immediately behind the stylus.  That plate, with its tiny coils fit into a magnetic gap placed extremely close to the stylus.  I liked the sound of this cartridge--it was lively and engaging while not being thin and analytical as some other "fast" sounding cartridges.  I don't know where it would fit in anyone's "best" ranking, but, it is, in my opinion, a very good cartridge.

I know I'm 1-2 thousand hours from the Deccapocalypse. I'm already thinking about what might come after. Having spent money on a Grado Statement 3 I don't think there's a future there for me. The other game in town is Soundsmith. Reviews are rather sparse, especially of recent versions. I'd love to hear from anyone who owns The Voice MkII, Paua MKII, Sussurro MkII, Hyperion or the strain gauge.

Using the Quad 24p (designed by Tim deParavicini) I can deal with low output cartridges (Paua and up) but the MC input has a fixed impedance of 10Ω, and ≥470Ω is recommended. Obviously, no issue if I go as far as the strain gauge with its own energiser/preamp. If The Voice MkII would make a Decca owner happy, there would be no issue as the 24p's MM input is 47kΩ. There's just no possibility of hearing these before purchase in Nova Scotia, even if I were allowed to leave the house (I'm not: recent bone marrow transplant and little immunity).

Hmm. Just like that my 24p died. Well, not dead, but the left channel is making clicking noises in the Quad 2905 speaker. It's not another panel gone in the speaker as there is no clicking with any other input. Fortunately, I have a line on a barely used Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista Vinyl. So there will be no end of loading options, after I save up again the cost of the phono stage.

Dear @mijostyn and friends: " The first and most important is tracking ability..."

 

I could say that cartridge tracking ability is the first main " desired " operation characteristic.but for the cartridge can shows 90um its overall set up and tonearm makes a critical role down there.

 

Anyway with or with out what I said on cartridge tracking the cantilever-less designs are the worst ones in that regards.

Not many audiophiles really take care the cartridge ability before pull the triger for.

Better cartridge tracking abilities means not only lower tracking distortions but that we can get more MUSIC information from those " auwful " LP groove modulations.

The different cartridge motor principle kind of designs are all good with its own trade-offs along the added manufacturer trade-offs and the DaVa is a good example when the designer choosed cantilever-less characteristic and not only that but over 3 different power supplies for the owner can tame the sound to his own targets, even in those power suplies with different choice of voltage and this makes a difference and the owner can choose in between. So an equalizer, then where the manufacturer left the field coil advantages?. eVEN SOME OWNERS ADDED AN EXTERNAL ADDITIONAL FILTER ( made by they self. ) APPROVED BY THE DESIGNER.

In my case I don’t like other eq. that the necessary inverse RIAA eq.. Of course that the overall design always is a privilege of the designer/manufacturer and if we take a look for the DS optical design the principle looks really good with clear advantages over other principles but here too the owner needs a manufacturer equalizer that " mainly " works with the cartridge bass range response but the manufacturer in reality is not precise on what at the end makes that equalizer that comes with a price tag of 45K added to the cartridge 15K.

Yes, 45K for two boxes, 3 transformers, millions of uf filtration and owner choice of bass range eq. selection to mate the customer targets.

 

What’s all about? because " professional " reviewers and audiophiles touted as in this thread both cartridges. Yes the decision is up to each one of us, things can’t be in other way but if I wanted an additional equalizer in my room/system certainly I will not do it through a cartridge but I will go for the best out there that can gives me many other good " things " and that unit comes from FM Acoustics. I remember that the first time that I posted of this audio product all analog lovers were " against " me but.........

It’s a learning lecture the FM whole information and each one of us can imagine what can do for any room/system and obviously any top cartridge:

 

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/harmonic-linearizers/fm-133-fm-233/

 

In the other side you are rigth too on the stylus quality that yes in the top designs are hand selected but the cantilever material is little more important because its direct tendency to develops additional resonances/vibrations in the cartridges .

@jcarr once posted that and even said that he bougth boron for cantilevers because its high demand a low offer suppliers. It’s so important that he puts in its top cartridge models diamond dust all over the boron cantilevers to improve its stiffness. Diamond is the material with the higher Young Modulus value followed by boron.

 

Btw, is something " weird " that that OP expensive Grado top model came with an almost " ridiculous " stylus shape for that kind of $$$$ level cartridge.

 

@larryi , you are rigth too and that FET cartridge design you mentioned came from way many years I never listened but looks in paper as very good principle too.

No, almost no one take care about the ART 1000 just for what @syntax posted: inexpensive cartridge for some one takes seriously even that’s a seriously and very good design but unfortunatelly this is the analog world where we aLL LIVE.

Other good point is the one @tmasphere posted on those additional 2 wires for the field coil designs that yes stiff the tonearm and this is not a good " notice " for the owners even that all of them are truly satisfied and that the cartridge has a 6 months wait listing owners but the Formula One has one full year.

 

R.

@mikelavigne Glad the DaVa is working out so well for you. I was wondering about one for myself - how would you characterize the sound? Lean? Analytical? Lush?

Thanks!

@terry9

the DaVa is electric! alive! nothing lean, or or clinical. projects lots of energy. harmonically rich timbre and textures. robust bass. very fast and agile. but a touch raw and immediate, as opposed to overly liquid and slow. the very best MC’s (my special [and ultra costly] Etsuro Gold’s) might be more refined.

will make many cartridges seem tame and languid in direct comparison.....but the DaVa has zero edge or glare.

you are connected to the music, and not thinking about the sound. maybe the very best and most real reproduced vocals i’ve yet heard.

if someone claimed it’s the very best cartridge i could not argue. but i’m not going there.

Thank you!

I need some enlightenment

What is in a tt cart that would warrant a 12K-25K price tag?

I have heard the reasoning of r&d but wondering how much of that a cartridge that is about an inch long and half inch wide can substantiate.

From Mono and Stereo 2022 talking about the DaVa, "a unique sound with startling realism." 

There is only one realistic sound. Everything else including "unique" is not. I have not listened to the DaVa Reference and probably never will. I find it's design clashes with my own perception of physics. I have listened to DS cartridges and did not find them exceptional, exceptional enough to get invested in the electronics.   However this was not in my own system but in systems that were significantly inferior. I have listened to the Soundsmith Strain Gauge and it was very enticing, a little too enticing which I think was due to it's inherent brightness. In the end I decided not to buy one. It also has trouble contending with higher groove.  velocities. 

Another point that I would like to make is that you have to be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. I have gone down that road in the past and in every case tired of the sound with more experience. 

There is a huge amount of science behind the very best cartridges, materials science in particular. It takes a lot of horsepower in a company to develop these tiny parts and put them together with perfect precision. It should be no surprise that companies like Ortofon, Lyra and MSL (and all it's offshoots) make wonderful cartridges in a very reliable fashion. IMHE exotic designs wind up disappointing in the end. High resolution digital files of modern digitally recorded music do not lie. The very best cartridges should sound just like them. Any variation signifies coloration be it euphonic or not. The MSL Platinum Signature is certainly very close. 

@rauliruegas , trust me on this one my friend.  If you think the FM Acoustics equalizers are something else wait till you get a load of the new DEQX digital preamps. Their capability far exceeds the FM acoustics even if the build quality is not quite up there with FM. It is still very impressive and being able to adjust the frequency response and time align individual channels on Hz at a time is powerful in a way that in a way that defies description. 

I am working on setting up the system for digital RIAA EQ. All the parts are in place I just have to learn how to program the Lynx Hilo to send everything where it supposed to go and there is so much in that little box that my old brain is having difficulty avoiding confusion.

@arro222

Well, the distributor wants his cut. So does the dealer. When they say 40% markup, they mean 40% of the selling price, so it’s actually a 66% markup. To be fair, each has his own costs and it’s not all gravy, especially the retailer.

Then there is marketing. Only a few can get by with no marketing at all. But they have proprietary designs and proprietary skills and proprietary parts. For example, there was only one source of small exotic platinum magnets with a highly uniform magnetic field. They were made in quantity for MRI machines. When the factory closed, one alert client scooped up the world supply. That was Koetsu, so they alone have platinum magnets.

Speaking of Koetsu, their top cartridges also feature aged rosewood bodies, or stone bodies (which are prone to shatter during manufacturing), and diamond cantilevers. Then it is fair to say that the highly skilled labour isn’t cheap, and that many examples, from parts supplied to them to finished product, are substandard and need to be discarded.

We all asked the same question about HP tubes, back in the day. Thing was, we could buy a 6922 (tube) for $3, but a 6922 from HP was $30. Little did we know that the HP tube was a bargain: it was later said that HP bought the tubes by the pallet and discarded 98% straight into the dumpster. The same MAY be true of the best cartridges, not that we’ll ever know.

So you pays your money and takes your choice.

 

 

Oh, and don't let anyone tell you that digital is the standard. If digital were perfect, then all digital products would produce that same perfect sound. They don't. QED.

From Mono and Stereo 2022 talking about the DaVa, "a unique sound with startling realism."

There is only one realistic sound. Everything else including "unique" is not. I have not listened to the DaVa Reference and probably never will. I find it’s design clashes with my own perception of physics. I have listened to DS cartridges and did not find them exceptional, exceptional enough to get invested in the electronics. However this was not in my own system but in systems that were significantly inferior. I have listened to the Soundsmith Strain Gauge and it was very enticing, a little too enticing which I think was due to it’s inherent brightness. In the end I decided not to buy one. It also has trouble contending with higher groove. velocities.

Another point that I would like to make is that you have to be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. I have gone down that road in the past and in every case tired of the sound with more experience.

@mijostyn

i have a long held process to judge my sources, including my turntables and cartridges, and that is RTR tape with my Studer A-820’s and King Cello tape repro. as those have stayed constant for now.......15 years, it’s a reference hard to surpass. my vinyl has certainly gained on the field of my master dub collection over the years.

the DaVa Reference is not some alien sound from outer space. it’s ’like’ my Etsuro Gold cartridges, and my tape. it’s music, and is able to attain ’suspension of disbelief’ frequently. very immersive and engaging. it has it’s own outstanding "musical" qualities for sure. i hope you do get to hear one.

i fully respect that we all view methods of technology for ourselves and have a right to our opinions about it.

Dear @lancelock and friends: I forgot to post a critical and important issue on those cartridge designs.

 

The optical DS design has a huge advantage over any other cartridge designs including the field coil and that advantage is that is and sense amplitude and not velocity as the other cartridges.

Senses amplitude means lower distortions against any velocity normal cartridges as the ones we all know.

@lancelock you was the only owner of DS cartridge that posted here and you own the top model that comes with diamond cantilever ( not that " scientific " cactus material in the DaVa. I would like to ask the designer if he knows which the " young Modulus " for that cactus choice material. I said this with " irony " because DaVa manufacturer speaks of science. ) and micro ridge stylus shape an even that I never had the opportunity to listen DS cartridges I’m with you with what you posted:

 

""" I just can’t believe it gets any better than this. Absolute joy to listen to. """

Congratulations to be an owner of it.

 

R.

Didn’t realize Koetsu’s went up to 20k. A quick Google search found this.  

@rsf507  That's with the diamond cantilever +$5K add-on option. That pink Rhodenite stone is also now discontinued, along with Coralstone (ran out of material). The standard boron models still top out at 15K or 16K (for Blue Lace), which they have been at for many years now.

Anyways, the large premium on certain stones seems to be thanks to the regional distributors more than  Koetsu Japan. And a more "pedestrian" RSP or Onyx with boron cantilever still sounds exceptionally good and embodies the full Koetsu sound (for that matter the Urushis probably do too - I want to try one). They all have the same motors inside.

Dear @mijostyn  : "" be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. I have gone down that road in the past and in every case tired of the sound with more experience.  ""

The time almost always tell us that your statement is true.

 

The DaVa designer is a very enthusiastic gentleman with more enthusiasm than really deep knowledge levels in de overall cartridge operation subjects. 

For years he builded several cartridge prototypes of the Neumann cartridge, so the wrong path of the cantilever-less characteristic came from there when not only Neumann or Ikeda really were nota a wallop true success. That is a fact and Ikeda confirmed when just forgeret on the cantilever-less and started again with cantilever cartridge designs. Now, no one knows about till it try it or some one design it and listen to it, so the Ikeda " adventure " with was and is welcomed always as the Neumann one.

I have to say that with my first hand experience with the Ikeda cantilever-less in my system I experienced that " wallop ", surprise and high enthusiam that I even said that design was " prodigious " at least. I owned 3 different Ikeda and the best experiences were through the REX9 paired with the Mission The Mechanic tonearm ( in those times I owned over 20 different tonearms, good top tonearms. Well, not all.) and after some time all the Ikeda samples just gone when I learned that that was a wrong path and now I don't think I'm ready to try it again. As you, ""   I find it's design clashes with my own perception of physics.  "" and common sense.

Other that the manufacturer low knowledge level of low tracking abilities of his cartridge design that's a " heavy " penalty that no field coil principle can fix it there are other " mistakes " ( for me ) or more than mistakes questions: why 4 different power suplies? why an after market additional cartridge filter? why cactus?

Always a " new kid in the...." is welcomed, especially the field coil principle that's what really moves my curiosity to listen the Audio Note due that I listened the normal I/O and still remember its very good quality level along the @larryi  positive post with his experiences with this new field coil design that other than that is exactly the I/O cartridge. I don't know yet its price.

 

About your DS experiences good to know what you posted:

"" However this was not in my own system but in systems that were significantly inferior. "

As you now the strain gauge design is just like the DS an amplitude sense instead velocity but here is a big BUT: DS plays inside the rules in specific the RIAA inverse eq..and that's why we need a phono stage with RIAA to runs the DS. In the other side PL choosed to plays with his own " business man " rules and the cartridge design does not conforms with the RIAA and from there comes that " terrible " brigthness you experienced but several audiophiles love it.

 

R.

 

@rauliruegas

i am disappointed to read about these attempts to discredit the DaVa without even hearing it. we all have a right to our opinions. i appreciate that. but please respectfully qualify your remarks that you have not heard it, so you really don’t know how good it is.

then take your shots if you must. guessing about products is part of what we do here.

then if you DO ever hear it, tell us how that goes. thank you.

@mikelavigne , I'm sorry Mike but your Studers are a poor reference. The right reference is live music. Granted, it is hard to AB with live music but, live music where you are listening to the actual instruments and not a PA system is the reference. I have noted that you like the DaVa cartridge. Based on what I can determine it is not a cartridge I would care to even listen too. Maybe it is my loss. So be it. Frankly I doubt it. Not knowing you personally, I have no reason to trust your ears. I have noted your opinion and will combine that with the opinion of others. 

@rauliruegas , We shall see how the DS holds up in the long run. It is a large investment and not one I am ready to make...yet. 

@mijostyn 

live music is a data point. maybe lots of data points. part of our viewpoints and knowledge base. but our vinyl reproduction reference is the source master tape.

it's not that hard to get that. but you have a right to your opinion.

Live music played in an acoustically lousy concert hall is a poor reference.

Studer can be a much better one for our purposes. Digital is not a reference at all.

This is a good thread to call others names and start a class war in the process.

Anyone here works for the living or just buys/sells worthless pieces of paper that only increases the costs to everyone? 

What a cute bunch we are.

 

 

 

 

ScanTech seems to make the best carts I’ve heard, Lyra at the top of my list. I’m currently using a Lyra Skala and have nothing I want. It is not the weak point of my system.  That's what I've heard and not to discount what others have observed in their systems.  

The weak point in my system, like for EVERY system, it the room.

@rauliruegas 

Brevity is a blessing.  The lack of brevity if a curse.  Verbosity ensures ignoring the substance.  

 

DS Audio are keen to see new designs for their Generators being produced.

There is schematic information available through DS Audio to encourage third party Generators to be produced.

I recently introduced a friend, who is a long time advocate of DS Audio Cart's to a Third Party Generator, and they jumped at the opportunity.

The New Design Generator has made a very good impression and has superseded the OEM Model in use with a Grandmaster and DS003. 

Dear @mikelavigne  : I respect your opinion but disagree with.

Look, as you I have long analog experiences and specially regarding cartridges as a whole.  All what surrounds the DaVa including your personal experienced opinion makes me to think for sure ( even that I did not listen to it. ) that that cartridge has to many " errors " around to take it really seriously and buy it.

 

Come on Mike, I can't find out any where the basic cartridge specs. Have you? could you share with all of us?

In the other side and in your main forum where you normall post every one is " happy " as you are and from where is the foundation of that happiness with all those explained facts around that design and please don't tell us: " it's what we like it ". Nothing wrong with that but explain nothing serious about.

You posted with some kind of irony there:  "" if the tubed power supply is distorted, i love distortion like that..  ""

Ironic or not it's very clear that you like that kind of distortions developed by the DaVa sample you own. My " shots " as you named are not diminish neither the designer or the cartridge, only trying to explain some facts that it stayss been facts till the manufacturer somewhere over the net gives his takes about.

 

I know @mijostyn  and if he knew that the DaVa is something to own you can really be sure that him or even me already pull thr tiger to own it.

 

I already read what other owners posted in that other forum but down that forum are a lot of gentlemans that die for the 3012 tonearm no matters what and die for other audio products with no sense. Yes, several of them are really whealty but seems to me ( not you. ) that many of them only have $$$ and are followers of the in home sellers .

I don't trust on the word of those gentlemans and you know that normally I trust in you and not because your $$$$ but your experience.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : " I’m sorry Mike but your Studers are a poor reference. "

Well, it’s a reference till some levels depending what you want to test/compare and with what purpose.

There are several problems with R2R units , one of the more significative is that in the past all audiophiles took as an audio reference the R2R to compare its quality level performance against other sources mainly analog but even digital too

Yes, live MUSIC is the main reference and nothing can changes about but I can tell you that through my audio life other than live MUSIC I changed my comparison home system reference that I take as part of tests proccess.

I followed @mikelavigne system and opinion for many years and he are really in focus because he almost always posted that the Studer A820.........exactly as in this thread he posted that twice. So he is sticking with that reference. Mike the following information is with all my respect to you as always and in NO single way I’m trying to dimish you or those beautiful Studer 820 but facts are just that facts.

 

For me and from some years now other than live MUSIC digital alternative is untouchable by any R2R tape or other analog source no matter what. I posted about at least time times in the last 10 years and the latest MoFi controversy only confirms it.

That gentlemans as Mike still does not accepted that ( even that are extremely happy with the one step MoFi digital Lps and they know came from DSD master. ) is a " problem " for all them: we can’t live in the past. Everything is in movement and changing and I think we have at least try to learn about.

Look, these are some specs of the Studer A820 that confirms in some ways what you posted and I said here:

 

- tape speed deviation: +,- 0.2% - tape slip: +,- 01% . Speed stability here is even more critical issue than in a TT because is the recorder and the information used to cut the LPs.

W&F is +,- 0.03 % at 30" and 0.04% at 15" speeds.

Frequency response +,- 2db ( that’s a swing of 4dbs ! ! ) at 30ips from 40hz to 22khz and at 15ips 30hz-20khz ( really limited frequency response. ) and obviously that at +,- 1db deviation FR is even worst.

 

All those are facts and those facts tell me that can’t be my reference against my today digital reference and I have to say that I’m an analog audiophile but mainly a MUSIC lover and I like to have almost always my foots in the ground. Audio " dreams " are not any more for me.

No, I’m not against Mike ( or any one else. ) and he knows it. I appreciated him.

 

R.

@bpoletti  : Sorry.

 

R.

@rauliruegas , thank you for saying that first. If I have to use a standard to AB against it will be a 24/192 digital file. Nothing at this date is more accurate than a 24/192 file in a home system. Why not DSD? None of the modern four channel digital processors I know of operate in DSD, always PCM. The digital program I use to play files converts DSD to PCM for playback and storage.

No analog tape machine can compete for accuracy with a 24/192 file. This says nothing about perceived sound quality. I intentionally juggle the frequency response curve to suit my own taste, intentionally inaccurate. 

What Mike's Studers are, are very cool machines, mechanical artwork. They are antiques and have no place in a modern system. They are now much more cost effective better performing ways to have the highest quality sources.  

Today I had the experience of using the Platinum Signature played through a current mode phono stage without RIAA correction, digitized, pops removed and RIAA correction applied digitally. I would call the results majestic.  With this cartridge the current mode is noticeably better than the voltage mode. I can switch back and forth. The current mode is slightly cleaner with sharper transients which increase detail. Higher volumes are even more comfortable. The two places the improvement is most noticeable is with pianos and bass definition. Very happy with the results. Now I have to learn how to "render" files. The system records them flat like raw photography files. If you want to play the files from and store them in a normal library they have to be "rendered" by adding RIAA correction, adjusting gain and using other added features like pop and tic removal.