There were many threads on the topic of "audiophile fuses" on this forum, and I sure don't want to open old wounds and trench warfare. The fuse on my preamp blew suddenly two days ago, which prompted me to search for a replacement. That's when I came across the term "audiophile fuse" and the fact that they demand far-out prices. Deeper curiosity brought me to several other fora, where users posted glowing praises about their Zero fuses and other exotica. Now I am a scientist, but not a physicist or electrical engineer: so please enlighten me! How can a fuse have an audible influence on the signal, when the signal does not even pass through it? How can a fuse be "directional" when it deals with alternate current? I mean, if I recall my university physics, a fuse is basically a safety valve and nothing more. Am I completely missing an important point here? My scientific field is drug discovery, and because of this background I am thoroughly familiar with the power and reality of the placebo effect. I that's what I am seeing here, or is it real physics? I need objective facts and not opinions, please. I really appreciate your help!
Don't know what prompted the resurgence of this old thread, but it got me thinking about power, fuses, and AC connectors, and especially the comments by @carlsbad2 about getting rid of fuses and using slugs.
What if I installed a suitably sized in-wall magnetic breaker in the same box as the dedicated duplex feeding my monoblock amplifiers, shouldn't I then be safe removing the fuses from the amplifiers, replacing them with slugs, and relying on the magnetic breaker as if it were a fuse? I think I will look into the viability of that option since it would be a relatively inexpensive approach to remove the constraint of fuses from those amplifiers, and doesn't seem much different from using the Swiss Digital Fuse Box. The only issue I see is that I would probably need a breaker for each of the monoblocks. Have any of you done something similar?
Mr. Carlsbad I appreciate your post, using a copper slug would be very similar to what the Swiss Digital Fuse Box is achieving or people reports, with the added layer of a programmed circuit breaker no?
People overestimate the engineering and design behind the fues the OEM puts on their amp. First fuses can't protect everything inside your amp, otherwise, the fuse would be practically the only thing that fails. but in my life I've seen a lot of equipment fail and almost never does the fuse blow. the latest example is the DRO (Digital ReadOut) on my milling machine. It died 3 weeks ago. Opened it up to find a burned circuit board, and a fully intact fuse. I just finished installing a new one BTW, it was the Cadillac brand of DROs, similar to PASS for a power amp, not a boutique like some of the even more expensive amps.
Input fuses are required by law (but not always) and expected by consumers. I'm sure many engineers add the fuse last, look at the max expected current, add some margin via "engineering judgement" or "rule of thumb", and put the fuse size on the drawing. If during development and testing the fuse blows, they increase the size of the fuse.
Now sometimes fuses are added to protect specfic components. for example sometimes tube amps have a fuse to protect the output transformers from some specific failure--likely a failure that they observed during testing. and of course they have incentive to protect from this failure tor reputation but even more so to protect from expensive warranty repairs. Fuses in the signal path are a horrible compromise and I wouldn't buy and amp with one. OTOH, some will have fuses on the output of the rectifier. I have tested these fuses with slugs and found very little if any difference. These fuses may be extrememely oversized. for example, if you have .001 amp normal current but 10 amp fault current, you can put a 1 amp fuse in. It is 1000 times larger than normal current and doesn't limit current but small enough to blow on a fault.
So I just want poeople to understand that fuses aren't a magical component that keeps your compenent from ever failing or that it is a carefully engineering precision device.
I've also speculated that audiophile fuses are more carefully designed to blow at the extreme top end of the range. suppose you have a 2 amp fuse with 10% accuracy. The off the shelf fuse may blow at 1.8 amp, the audiophile fuse may blow and 2.2 amps. this extra margin will come with some current carrying capability that could sound better.
I encourage anyone contemplating an expensive fuse to do a 60 minute test (on a good weather day) with a copper slug replacing the fuse. The slug is the best that can be achieved, no fuse at all. You'll get an idea what improvements are possible. and when you get your audiophile fuse installed you'll know if it's closer to the original fuse or the slug. Now some components don't benefit from a slug/upgraded fuse since their power supply architecture results in a circuit that is not limited by the fuse.
NOTE: if you do the test, recognize that you have no protection during the 60 minutes with the slug, but the chance of a failure in the 60 minute test is infinitesimally small. that said, don't do stupid things with the slug installed. Have the amp set up and playing, make no changes other than replace the fuse. Don't even uplug and replug any cables.
@tonywingaI’d be afraid to pop in some random fuse into the Pass amps. You’re brave for trying it out and I think you got off easy. The only time I tried to upgrade a fuse it was in the McCormack DNA225 amp about 20 years ago. I used SR fuse, don’t recall which, but I remember the difference was extremely small. That was the only time I bothered with it. It wasn’t worth it then and it’s not worth it now. Especially when dealing with some random fuse “manufacturer”. All you’re accomplishing is introducing a risk.
I’m not denying the difference a fuse makes - all I’m saying is it ain’t worth it at all. It’s a BS tweak. Replacing a generic $3 outlet with a higher quality one makes more difference.
I see all the talk about amplification power sourcing but I am more curious about high end fuses inside of speakers. Seems like the signal would interact more in those instances.
When I owned my various Magnepan iterations; my first tweak was always bypassing the fuse holders.
The presentation = cleaner/better defined.
Given the 30 day return policy of some fuse manufacturers and the very slim chances of blowing one; why not try better fuses in your speaker systems, for yourself?
Anyone needing a rationale for experimenting with new fuses, cables or various, "tweaks" in their system and/or feeling dissuaded by the Church of Denyin'tology's antiquated electrical doctrines: take heart!
Many new electrical facts have been established in the past 100 years, lending support for the audible differences between them.
I couldn't find anything like, "Updated Electrical Theory For Idiots", but- did manage to find something resembling a cartoon, that even a child could follow. It neither mentions AC/sinusoidal waves in wires, nor does it go into the photon propagation of electromagnetic waves. It does, however, emphasize/demonstrate how Electrical Theory has progressed, since the 1800s:
These next two presuppose a certain amount of knowledge, in the field of modern Electrical Theory. Click, "more" in the first link's third answer, to get its entirety. Note how it mentions the OLD, "... commonly held misconception that the flow of electricity through a wire resembles a tube filled with ping pong balls...", to which the Denyin'tologists fervently adhere:
It's an established (measured) fact that an electromagnetic wave's propagation and speed, are dependent on the materials, of which the transmission line (cable) are made (ie: Dielectric Constant/permittivity). The better (lower) the Dielectric Constant the better the flow and the longer it takes for that material to become polarized. One reason anything that comprises an RLC circuit (ie: capacitors, cables, PC boards), takes time to, "form", or, "break/burn-in".*
Even the most inane (regarding the Sciences) must admit; braiding and twisting wires eliminates/reduces EMI interference.
That must lend credence to various cable geometries.
That better dielectrics enhance the propagation of electromagnetic waves (ie: your music signal), lends the same credence to choosing cables with better materials (ie: Polypropylene, Teflon, air, etc).
Of course: anything the Church of Denyin'tology's popes can't fathom, they'll summarily dismiss.
As simple a device as a fuse is: it still carries a sinusoidal signal/voltage, ALWAYS from source to load.
NOT back and forth!
Also (as mentioned above): any fuse acts as an RLC circuit, the 'C' of which will be determined by properties of its wave guide's/conductor's surroundings (ie: glass, air, bee's wax, ceramic, end cap materials, etc).
Any commonly drawn wire will exhibit a chevron pattern in its crystal lattice, so: why not "directionality" and why OHNO Continuous Cast, single crystal wire sounds better, to so many?
Stated above are scientifically tested, measured and proven facts.
There is no "contest", or "dispute" involved.
The OP mentions Maxwell, but: obviously they have no understanding of his theory and possible ramifications as regards the above.
Anyone that feels compelled to harp on not hearing any differences, is obviously too obtuse to understand the term "variables" (as frequently mentioned) and worthy of disregard.
My only goal in these threads has ever been to encourage those with a mind to experiment with their systems, based on the latest (20th/21st Century's) findings of ACTUAL Physics/science and ignore the Cargo Cult's incessant runway building (objections, convolutions, deflections and obfuscations).
Something I may have missed but I was looking for opinions on:
What about better fuses in speakers??
I see all the talk about amplification power sourcing but I am more curious about high end fuses inside of speakers. Seems like the signal would interact more in those instances.
Fuses like any other connector work on transfer with least loss. Everyone already knew that one, right? Then I see people jumping off a dead battery expecting a few hundred (peak) amps to transfer through the .03 square inches of contact surface by way of the teeth on the clamps.
Materials and their design for wiring will make a difference and is perceived by some and not by others. (A big discussion here, often).
F1 drivers feel a difference in a single psi in one tire, but I don't feel it in my Tundra.
Does that mean it Can't make a difference because I couldn't tell?
Lots of Baloney in this hobby creates many questioning of some of these products, but closing your mind, (not you, your question shows your open minded), but many say product or design X CANNOT make a difference.
The original "it can't make a difference" people are still cooking over a campfire just outside their cave.
@reimarc, it depends on the design of your component. If you note that a fuse is in the signal path of a low feedback design, etc, it could potentially cause a very minor audible change...
If the fuse is not in the signal path or if you may have even the slightest hint of hearing loss, etc, don't waste your time on stuff like this..
I had a buddy in high school that ran the movie projector at our local drive in movie theater. (Ca. 1974). He let me in the projection shack to watch him work once. He had a large motor that drove a DC generator. He first cleaned up the commutator with some sandpaper wrapped around a wood stick. Then he mounted a carbon rod in the projector, started the screw drive and turned on the power. That was cool stuff. The carbon rod, I think could last one reel which was about an hour. He had two projectors and both were required to show one complete movie.
2nd story: In Ag class in high school we were rebuilding the engine on an old Oliver tractor. It used a magneto ignition and had a crank on the front as backup for starting the engine. The engine was torn down but the block and crank were still mounted in the tractor with the magneto. So as a right of passage, each one of us had to hold on to a spark plug wire while someone spun the crank. And the faster you can crank the stronger the magneto pulse. We had one large kid who could hold onto the spark plug wire no matter how fast someone would spin the crank. He just stood there saying, “he he he.” Scary guy.
My guess based on successful reports is that one would have to spend significantly more like for SR or QSA fuses to hear notable differences.
I'll pass on that. Here's a few quotes from past audiogon discussions:
It's unfortunate that Hifituning discontinued the Silver Star fuses. It was the real champ in their line. From speaking with others who have experience with the Supremes, they will leave you wanting compared to the discontinued silvers. I was fortunate to scarf up some Silver Stars from Parts Connexion when they had a close-out sale on them.
Yes, the Silverstar are made from pure silver. They are very fast and bright fuses. So, if you feel they sound nice, they are definitely well broken in.
Yes… I got zapped by my distributor cap and coil output more than once.
Actually, the one I remember the most was when I was when I was a projectionist in the 1960’s with a 1940’s carbon arc movie projector (two 1/4” thick carbon sticks that you had to bring together to start an electrical arc… then back off. Sustaining the brilliant arc of electricity (think lightning)…somehow I got shocked… it threw me across the room and against the wall… I just became aware of existence as if a dream. Wow, that was a jolt! Never want that again! Like getting electrocuted I am sure.
Last time I remembered getting shocked was when adjusting the timing points on my distributor- many moons ago. I’m thankful for circuit breakers - much safer.
Which got me thinking, of all the innovations in my lifetime, I’m really glad for word processors - made many typewriter typos so correction take/fluid slowed things to a crawl. I wonder if the best innovation for my mom was the washing machine- I spotted an old scrub board when I was young.
In my case I was replacing the power supply filter caps in a few pieces of equipment (my distribution amps). Since the fuses are internal in these DA's, I thought if I'm going to do it (it being the first time I would try some "audiophile" fuses), then this would be the best time. I tried some HiFi Tuning Silverstar's (I think they were like $15 a piece), and didn't hear *any* difference. I fell for it, but I won't be falling for it again (however, I still left them in the DA's).
I remember pennys in fuse box… not often fortunately. I also remember getting shocked all the time when changing fuses…. Which seemed to happen a lot back then.
You know, what mapman says about fuses could also be said for vacuum tubes or even a fine meal. Anyone see the cost of WE 300b tubes these days?
The front end of my stereo system has a total of 22 tubes. I’m not bragging, I’m just pointing out that the nature of this hobby is expense- both the upfront costs, the depreciation and the recurring costs (electricity, tube replacement, subscription costs, repairs, etc) must be considered. To denigrate the use of expensive, handmade fuses is saying that the entire hobby is futile.
Only the most truly dedicated among us with a few extra bucks to literally burn would pay a fortune for a device whose job is in fact to burn up and destroy itself when needed. At least no drains involved for the money to go unexpectedly down with that one.
The hurricane is past us. We had 10 hours of heavy rain and some wind but never lost power.
The HiFi Tuning fuses, 6.3A T Slow blow type arrived this morning. I installed them in my mono amps this evening and turned the amps on. One amp stayed on but the other amp turned on only for a moment and shut off. Pulled the fuse and confirmed with my Ohm meter that it had blown.
Experiment is over. I've had my fill of hifi fuses. I hope I can get a refund from the vendor for these two. I already took it on the chin for the last two fuses.
The Hifi Tuning fuse in my DAC is still working fine and it sounds good. I'm not touching it.
This is audio. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. Not knowing isn't an option. And if anyone wants to claim confirmation bias, I'm almost certain the one amp would not have made any sound had I left the hifi fuses in place.
I’m in middle Georgia a little ways west of Savannah, GA. We are experiencing heavy rain here and the wind is picking up. Still have power and still watching the humming birds flit around the feeders.
Poor little Cedar Key is getting it good, but it looks like one of my favorite places, Apalachicola, is going to get spared. Might get a little dicey for Sopchoppy and Carrabelle, though. Hope you ride it out safely!
A .22 caliber slug would almost fit actually. Just a little bit too big. Still, not sure I would use one even in a pinch.
When I was a kid I remember people putting pennies in their fuse boxes- back in the day when homes had fuse boxes with screw in fuses. You know, when pennies were still made of copper. What I always wondered was who was stupid enough to push that penny into the socket with their finger. Sure, its all good as long as you are not touching ground with the other hand.
I have hunkered down for the hurricane. System is shut down cold and unplugged. Expect heavy rain, flooding and high winds so no fuse related listening tests today. Sending this now before we lose power.
Heat resistant, strong outer fuse body, usually constructed from ceramic or fibreglass. The cavity inside the fuse body is commonly filled with fine silica sand or quartz to absorb the heat and energy of an over-current.
Shrink tubing around ? the sand ?
maybe around the body and ends if it's the pig tail type but otherwise nah .
We just had a strong thunderstorm and heavy rain blow through here. Boy was I glad I put the fuses back in my amps. I still unplugged everything. We had a couple of close strikes.
Btw- my mono bloc amps are on a dedicated circuit. The front end is on its own dedicated circuit. So when I put those copper slugs in, all I could think about was which will melt first, the copper slugs or the 10ga electrical line. But everything was fine.
I’m starting to think that the function of these fuses isn’t about conductance. It’s about mechanical dampening. I know someone else brought that up before. It has a silver filament and that’s it for electrical properties apparently. The ceramic tube and then the rubber tube inside that isolate and dampen the filament.
From that standpoint you are getting what you pay for. These are likely hand made and painstakingly assembled. Now, the real question is do they work? In the end you are paying for a product to provide a function. In the case of my DAC the hifi fuse helps. In the case of my amps, that is still to be determined. What I do know now is that the current factory fuse in my amp is not an electrical bottleneck or a restriction for power or sound. The copper slugs proved that- from a hearing standpoint. So will a damped and isolated fuse sound different in my amps? To be determined...
Maybe from the heat of the solder used to connect that end of the wire to the end cap? The other end was probably connected prior to installing the heat shrink tubing.
Not to be intimidated by costly errors, I pressed on with my inquiry into fuses. I made two copper (99.9% pure) slugs, 5x20mm for my mono bloc amps. The engineer in me, being all too well acquainted with Murphy’s Law, was a bit reticent but I pushed on. With the two copper slugs installed in place of the slow blo fuses I listened to several songs. I detected no difference in sound. I put the fuses back and listened again and everything still sounds the same to me. I have two new slo blow HiFi tuning fuses arriving tomorrow but now I’m not sure it will be worth the trouble to swap out the factory fuses.
Now the fuse swap in my DAC made a noticeable difference in the sound- for the better. But in the case with my amps, I’m not expecting to hear a difference since the copper slugs had no impact on the sound. We will see.
So I ground the cap off of one end of my blown hifi fuse and peaked inside. I see a ceramic tube with the two metal end caps. Inside the ceramic tube is a piece of white shrink tubing that fits snugly within the ceramic tube. Inside that shrink tubing are the remains of a filament. It looks like silver wire and has a small shiny ball on the end. I’m sure that’s due to the current draw melting the wire when I powered up my amp. I don’t see any foo foo dust- unless it vanished when I ground the end off.
Anyone willing to sacrifice one of their $400 fuses to peak inside?
Something to do with electron flow around (not through) affected by different types of conductors and materials, yada, etc. I tried them, did notice quite a difference. Wish I hadn’t, because I did not believe they would until I swapped even just one.
Too clear and palpable to be my brain lying to me simply for having purchased something more expensive than one dollar. Sorry, just another opinion! I didn’t follow the rules here 😣
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