What is the fascination?

@ferrari275 good point. The engineering that went into turntables of the pre-CNC age was good ole fashioned blood, sweat and tears. No good design came easily back 40 and 50 years ago. There is also something to be said for work ethic and the non-globalized labor market of those times. I’ve restored some 35 to 40 year old turntables, and aside from the scarcity of parts, they’ve been a joy to work on and listen to, simply because of the inherent quality they possess. You know a turntable is good when it’s that old and can survive abuse of a deranged rapper and then be restored without major reconstructive surgery. 

tzh21y
I have to ask what is the fascination with these older turntables?

 Easy answer.  Some of the "older turntables" offer reference caliber analog playback.  Plain and Simple. 

A kind bit of advise, garner more experience ie. real life listening in top notch listening environments, with various properly setup and conceived "older" turntables.  I think you might be in for a real shock. 

Not all that is "newer" is good - better and not all that is "older" is bad - worse.  This is especially true in high end audio, not in disposable mainstream big box store consumer electronics.  Do your own homework, and educate yourself.  I speak from my past humbling experiences, and I used to believe the same.    

Thanks fsonicsmith

It's a Pabst I believe. It was completely stripped down and rebuilt with Audiosilente high torque brushes by Greg Metz of STS/Classic Thorens. 

fsonicsmith,
Does the old Thornes motor have any identification on it? I'd like to pick one up to use on my table. Been using different hurst model motors & although they do the job, they are throw aways & rather under powered IMO. In regard to vintage, I'm running an old signature Grado as well as an old empire 4000diii. I love those cartidges! The grado is better than 25 years old & the empire is around 40 years old. When set up properly, they are sublime. 

Inclined to agree with @fsonic above.
I have 2 fully restored Garrard 401s with Audiosilente idler wheels. The early twin-spark model is in a slate plinth, the other in a walnut topped birch ply plinth. Both run new Jelco 12" arms (850 and 750 respectively) For the money, and apart from possibly a Lenco L75, there is no finer turntable solution.

As for me, a used turntable affords me a higher end table than I can buy new on my budget . 

My Red 3P "12 Cocobolo works fine with all vintage cartridges, especially the Garrott p77i. It's amazing tonearm for sure, but i love top vintage tonearms on the same level, definitely not from the 50s era, but from the 70s/80s  

Personally, and only personally, I prefer mating a vintage deck-restored or revitalized by a pro, with a modern era arm, in my case Reed 3P's. My "trusted guy" for deck restoration mostly gravitates toward SME 3009's. When he got a chance to see, install, and listen to my Reed 3P on my Thorens TD124, he immediately made efforts to secure two Reed 3P's for his personal Gerrard 301. That speaks volumes IMO. The tonearms of the day ('55-'62) have been significantly bettered by modern arms. High compliance MM's ruled the day back then. Modern cartridges mate better with modern arms. 
https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023903&p_id=2747&seq=1...

Between the devil and the deep blue sea!  For decades I have cherished and nursed along my Thorens TD-160 from the 70s.  I have dressed it up with Pickering and Shure carts.  In Jan of this year I made the break and purchased the Rega p-6 with Ortofon MM bronze cart.  The technology of the past 40 years just blows the old love away in every sense.  The only thing missing is the dampened auto arm to make sure each set down is gentle.  Their is no comparison in the performance and the music.  
But after many months and some spare $$$ I have added the same Orotfon cart to my old TD-160 and it is also splendid.  If I had put this cart on first I may not have even looked for a replacement.  The best news is that I have two great systems set up in different parts of the house and when I leave the conservatory and the 120 watts of Harmon Karden driving the Rega into new Bose 901s I can go to "Bubby's Bunker" in the basement where the old TD-160 is driven by the new Marantz PM 8006 into my 'home made' tower speakers.  Beethoven upstairs and MC-5 in the Bunker.  
Why the fascination?  It is like any other 'old love' or 'new love'.  After 45 years of marriage to the same woman I can barely imagine getting a 'new' one or that a new one could possibly be any better.  No one could feel better to wake up next to in the morning.  The better news is that the Thorens has no interest in me being faithful or even loving and I can play the Rega all I want without anxiety or regret or scorn.  It is OK to love them both, or even all of them.

Again, I invite those of you who are in the "new makes most sense" camp to candidly chime in as to whether you HAVE or have NOT actually had the opportunity to sit down and listen to a vintage deck along the lines of a TD124 or Garrard 301. Let me make this confession-I used to belong to your "new makes more sense" camp. My brain and logic told me that modern manufacturers must have succeeded through the dark days of vinyl by dint of manufacturing ingenuity. I bought with my eyes. Starting more than ten years ago, the looks of the VPI Scout talked to me and said, "buy me". So after trying a few lesser new tables, I bought a VPI Classic thinking it would be the last turntable I would ever want. I was convinced by all the VPI fans, by the positive reviews, by the huge cast platter, by the fancy looking tonearm. Then I traded in the Classic for a Prime thinking it just had to be the last turntable I would ever want since it had the same tonearm that Fremer had raved about in his review of VPI's $30,000 direct drive deck. You can judge with your eyes and logic, but you can't judge accurately with your eyes and logic. You have to listen. You also have to surrender your penchant for outward appearance. A deck that seems ugly but that sounds fantastic will begin to look beautiful to you. A deck that your eyes initially said was a beauty will fade to drabness if you don't like the way it sounds. Let me borrow from Lewm6 and the old phrase, "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

Can you say, "dripping with sarcasm"?
kahlenz, You are more elitist than you know. Expense-wise, it’s just the other way around. A basically high quality vintage turntable (usually not to be found in any grandfather’s closet), if properly refurbished and usually re-plinthed, will get you more bang for the buck than a comparable new turntable. That’s the whole point. To achieve that end, you do have to be in a DIY frame of mind. If you farm out the work to any of several competent professionals, you will have to pay extra for their time and skillset. That’s the way this cookie crumbles. This IS a hobby, after all; "you pays your money and you takes yer choice".
I’ve got about $800 in my refurbished Denon DP80 and less than $1000 in my Victor TT101. I’ve got a little over $1200 in my Lenco, including the cost of the Phoenix Engineering motor controller. These costs also include all electronic work done on them (mostly by me; some by professionals), all parts bought for them, and the creation of plinths of my own design for them out of slate or of other materials. Any of these 3 will compare favorably to commercially available turntables at over $5000.  (At least that's my opinion, based on owning commercially available turntables for the previous 35 years or so, before I got into this aspect of the hobby about 7-8 years ago, and on lots of listening to other systems fed by turntables costing up to $25,000.)

If you want to buy a new turntable, fine.  I choose to use my superior intellect and arcane knowledge to identify a dusty old turntable from a grandfather's closet, cleverly re-engineer several parts, and install a vintage cart with a custom stylus cut to my specs (sorry, I can't share them).  Through wit and industry I am quite wealthy, and can well afford to pay 2 - 3 times as much to refurbish a vintage table than to just buy a modern one that you plug in and it works.

Cleeds. Here is the  thread about building great turntable at a low cost.
Notice that this is the second thread about building cheap TT. The first had already gone viral.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/building-high-end-tables-cheap-at-home-despot-ii

The original AR arm was pretty bad. In the 80's people started cutting it off the subchassis and putting on a different arm. George Merrill came up with some great mods for the table, employing some methods he uses to this day on his own table.

No, it was never the best. But when it first came out in the '60s, it was a whole lot better than much of the competition.

?? The Empire was better, the Lenco was better, Thorens, the Garrard 301, Dual, Miracord, even some of the higher end BSRs... The AR was terrible. We hated seeing them come in the shop. The trick to making them work was a bit of talcum powder on the belt, since the motor was so underpowered. The plastic headshell often had fit problems going into the arm tube- the plastic was often deformed. The suspension couldn't manage a proper platter pad, so it had a foam pad that was loaded with static electricity. The platter and bearing were its main strength and it had good looks, which is what sold it.

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=133143&start=1750

Scroll down to post 1770-should you happen to be interested-as to my thoughts on vintage idlers vs. modern belt drive. 

@glupson I know what you mean about the SL-Q2. It is a great turntable, I rehabilitated one a while ago, and have another that I’m going to restore once I’ve got my second SL-1700mk2 all restored.  I wish I had bought either one of those back when I was young, but I got lured in by the linear tracking design and bought a SL-DL5 brand new, that I still have. It’s great fun getting back into vinyl. 

lewm

. Cleeds, do you really think the AR turntable was one of the best available in days of yore?

No, it was never the best. But when it first came out in the '60s, it was a whole lot better than much of the competition. That's why its design became classic and widely imitated.

Years ago one of my employees picked up an Empire 208 at a garage sale, and got it sounding good enough that for fun, I sought one of my own, which I found for $35.00 (good luck trying to do that now!).

I threw out the arm and installed my SME 5 on it-  it then sounded better than my SOTA Cosmos. But when I turned up the volume, the SOTA held together and the Empire didn't. So I damped the plinth and it sounded much better, even at volume, so the Cosmos went on the chopping block. After that I damped the platter, and ultimately had a plinth machined out of solid aluminum (the original is cast and no more than 14" thick), taking out the minimum amount of material to mount the original parts. I found a source for belts, the motor mounts, damped the platter and its been hard to beat! By this time the machine had a Triplanar installed. Others wanted one too, so I made a limited run of them. The new plinth is built with all the same lines as the original which IMO has some pretty classic lines, although our version is anodized rather than varnished. 
I've seen it take on serious high end machines and come out on top- Empire had a lot of things right with the original, but they didn't do too well with vibration control, which we fixed.

But then the new Technics SL1200G came along and that was a better machine yet. So I think the Atma-Sphere 208 is history at this point...

Tz,  keep in mind that Raul eventually recanted and came to declare that low output moving coil cartridges as a class were superior to moving magnet and other types of cartridges. Personally I do not share Chakster’s unequivocal preference for moving magnet cartridges. In my opinion, based on my own experience with my own system, I find that both types of cartridges can offer a great result, but you have to pick and choose very carefully. Also, most of us tend to ignore moving iron or induced magnet cartridges or to lump them with moving magnet cartridges. In fact some of the very best cartridges are moving iron and induced magnet types. Again, in my opinion.

Definitely, my analogy about $1000 MM over the $5000 MC is a personal experience with the best vintage MM and some of the best modern MC. We don't have to pay that much to enjoy the music. Some of the vintage MM are much more involving and less problematic with phono stages than modern MC carts. 

I am starting to understand why that thread about MM cartridges is out there.

@tzh21y 

just installed the pickering ESV 3000 today on the 1200G.  All I can say is wow.  I am impressed  

Good to know, Stanton/Pickering upper models are really great, if you like Pickering XSV-3000 (a brother of Stanton 881s) then you can upgrade to the Pickering 7500 or Stanton 981 series. But my favorite is Stanton SC-100 WOS. My minty XSV3000 looking for a new home.    

I try to stay out of these idiotic debates, but I don’t always succeed. Cleeds, do you really think the AR turntable was one of the best available in days of yore? It was wildly successful because it was regarded as the cheapest ticket to acceptable “hifi”. For anyone serious about the hobby, it’s shortcomings were evident. Also you’re going back to the 60s in your reminiscing. I think the “golden age” started with the advent of TAS in the mid70s. And finally most of us start with a vintage tt but end up with a highly modified modernized equivalent using modern ideas for mass and damping and platter mats. Especially those who rescue the old idlers which don’t cut it (much too noisy) without a lot of work and modifications. Also if you correct the original cost of the really great units from the 70s to 90s for inflation and for average annual incomes , they were never inexpensive. What we have these days at the very highest end of cost is pandering to oligarchs.

bluephil, the major job of the tt is to spin the LP at a constant speed. The tt does time.

just installed the pickering ESV 3000 today on the 1200G.  All I can say is wow.  I am impressed

What so great about top-of-the-line vintage idler 'tables, high quality long tonearms, and the better of the old fashioned low compliance cartridges?

You have to hear them to understand. Otherwise spouting off about something you've never heard and therefore don't understand is a waste of everyone's time.

If you've heard at least one properly set up example and still don't understand, then your musical tastes definitely run towards the more modern analytical sound, not that there's anything wrong with that;-)

New expensive Turntables verses older vintage ones that is the question. Well the answer is it DEPENDS. I personally like the older vintage tables. After all this technology isn't actually rocket science.

I personally have a 301 and two other Thorens brands. In one of my Thorens I might have $1500 in it and I will put it up against any new $5000 ones. If you really look at the important specs like rumble and wow & flutter.  The new TT aren't any better. The real differences are in the tonearm/cartridges/needle you are using. 

I think one of the reasons a lot of people don't want a vintage is they don't know the basic concept of what a TT does.  The end game is you want the piece of plastic (record) completely isolated to the cartridge. in other words you want zero rumble and zero wow & flutter. Well good luck with that. 

New tables don't work any better the vintages tables but cost 10 times as much. I would be willing to bet all these newer expensive tables won't be around 50 years from now and still working yet alone trying to get parts.

I like the vintage tables because they work and can be worked on, tweaked etc.. 

It looks like my candid remark about the inferiority of the Garrard Zero-100 turntable (in response to @dweller) really ruffled some feathers. That wasn’t my intent, and the remark wasn’t personal.

I think it’s great that there are those who restore old turntables, or explore vintage phono cartridges from the LP’s golden era. I can attest that many of these were great products. After all, they were what we were using back then.

But here’s the sad truth. A great many turntables, pickup arms and phono cartridges from the ’60s and 70s were abysmally awful. They were designed to a price for those who didn’t care - or didn’t care much - about fidelity. And even some of the better products - such as the AR turntable - were badly compromised. In the case of the AR, it was the pickup arm that was not-so-good. And I’m being kind.

Yes, after restoration the best of the vintage equipment still stands the test of time. But that’s a tiny fraction of the universe of vintage LP playback gear. I’m not saying today’s new gear is always better - some of the Crosleys looks like they were modeled after BSRs of yesteryear. But let’s not over-romanticize the past. One of the main reasons the compact disc was such an instant hit was that so many of its early adopters were using those awful turntable setups. You can’t blame them for wanting to dump ’em.

amg56

Well said.....and so very true.........Somewhat surprising to see that TT's have made a bit of a comeback with the younger set.........After all, I've never seen one with a remote or phone app :)......I guess you have to be old to appreciate old. LOL..............I fit that category.

Vintage turntables are analogous to mid 60's 70's cars. Solid and warm, unlike the clinical efforts of today. You could pull apart an older car and put it back together in a weekend (well parts like the engine, gearbox or the wheel/brakes/hub). You could make them better with a little cost and get your hands greasy.

Can't do that to today's cars. A "vintage" turntable will return the care and effort put in to keep them running. Most younger people in the throw away society have no interest in spending time to pull something mechanical apart to fix it. They might if it is a computer though. But even these are all-in-one laptops which like smartphones, are throw away. I just wait until my son-in-law upgrades his laptop (annually to play WOW), and then I get a good hand-me-down!

There something about "vintage" which is about charm, character,

idiosyncrasies and in this world of instant gratification, spending time to   put a record on, and turning it over is quaint and worldly. Not cold and clinical. Sorry, even if my vinyl collection is not big, I love playing them and they "sound" great...

sleepwalker65,

’...and sometimes I’m too lazy to get up at the end of then record side to pick the needle up from the lead-out groove."

That feature has been sorely missing in turntables and you are probably the first one ever to mention it. Ok, besides me to a friend of mine. Such a convenient feature and nowhere in sight these days. To make it more interesting, records/turntables basically died because CDs were more convenient. I know, I know, turntables are alive and kicking, sort of.

Having said that, I am not changing my Technics SL-Q2 until it dies which I hope happens never. It may not be the ultimate machine, but there is nothing better I know of. It is not the sound, it is not that it is vintage, it is not that I am retro. It is that it has been mine since day 1, and that day was not yesterday. It has survived teenage parties, airport baggage handlers, almost two couples of decades, a couple of continents (it does have dual voltage), and the only maintenance it has ever gotten has been oil once a year. No $150 000 new piece of machinery can erase those memories. That is the only true reason. No fascination, just love, I guess.

As one who has restored a 39 year old Technics SL-1700mk2 and working on a second one for mono playback, I do it for a few reasons: 

1: It’s fun for me to take something that’s got historical significance and rehabilitate it so (hopefully) I and future generations will enjoy it as an heirloom item. 

2. I enjoy the pursuit of maximizing the potential of things that are already intrinsically good. 

3. I don’t care for the look/feel and price of modern turntables. Most of the new ones I would consider are strictly manual, and sometimes I’m too lazy to get up at the end of then record side to pick the needle up from the lead-out groove. 

I'm still running a 35 year old, original SOTA Saphire TT, with a Lustre GST 801 arm and an equally ancient Grace, F-9E ruby cart. Is it the be-all and end-all of TT sound??......likely not, but it doesn't lose anything to my brand new Marantz 14S1 reference CDP either. There are always new and "better" toys to be had, but for me I don't hear any need to change what works. YMMV

I have a little mancave set up as a second system with some vintage gear.  There is just something I like about the looks and sound of my 35 yr old Acoustic Research ES-1 with Grace 707 tonearm and Grado Silver 1 MM cartridge that runs into a older Cary SLI-80.  I picked the AR TT up used for $250.  Perhaps a used Rega R1 or similar would sound as good or better for the same price?  Not really sure but I love the vibe of this little setup.  So I guess I'm guilty of "fascination".

@dweller, Cleeds wasn’t being rude, he just gave the unvarnished truth about those Garrards. They were great - but only in theory.  
    All too often people here won’t name names or tell it straight.  Blunt honesty like Cleeds’ should be encouraged, imho - I personally appreciate it.  He was doing you a favor.  As I recall, No one could get that Zero Garrard to work reliably.  A 301 or 401 is another matter.

Interesting comments.  I guess there is some satisfaction from working with something older and making it like new, an appreciation for some of the older technology that is not always worse technology, thats for sure. There were different materials more readily available years ago that arguably sound better.  The Marantz amps come to mind.  Hmmm.

@cleeds 

I was an active audiophile in the ’80s, and the ’70s, too. Now as then, I’m not really interested in experimenting with phono cartridges and pickup arms. 

Understood. For younger people like me it's the only way to try vintage gear produced in the golden era, i am totally happy with vintage stuff compared to some new stuff that i have too. 

I’m glad not everyone feels the same way, though. I sold my previous arm (Fidelity Research FR-64fx) to a buddy who still uses it. It sounds as great as ever.

Great tonearm, this is what i'm using now with my FR-7fz 

I have not listened to the Pickering yet.  It just sort of hit me in a way when I received it that you really are taking a serious risk with some of this stuff.

Remember Raul who own 100+ vintage cartridges and still fascinated about them. There is a very little risk, especially if you're buyin them from a fellow collectors, not from the professional sellers. 

I'll tell you that i've had more problems with brand new cartridges and electronics than with a vintage ones.  

Ignorance is bliss. 
For (some of ) those of you who replied to the OP, expressing opinions based entirely upon blind belief and your sense of the world is a waste of your time and ours. 
The OP asked a loaded question with "fascination". 
Art Dudley recently wrote a piece for S'Phile in which he referenced the fact that he is frequently asked for a recommendation of a modern table and he can't come up with a single recommendation. 
We're not talking about Space-X and DNA-cloning cutting edge technology here. It's a matter of craftsmanship. My Thorens TD124 with a Reed 3P arm (OMG, the arm is largely made of wood!!!!) blows away my VPI Prime with 3D arm. There is simply no comparison, either in SQ or price. I have 13K easy in my Thorens and $5500 in my VPI Prime with a second 3D arm and Phoenix Engineering Falcon and Roadrunner. The Thorens has a huge custom made double-bearing (bearing on bearing) main bearing. The motor is probably three times the size and 10 times the torque of the VPI unit. Everything on the Thorens can be taken apart and rebuilt including the motor. The Prime motor is disposable. When it goes bad you throw it out and buy a new one. My restored TD124 will go another 50 years easy. It is built like a tank. 
I am not saying the Prime is junk. It is very high quality. But if you hold it up as a gleaming example of high quality modern day technology and manufacturing, it does not compete with the best Swiss technology from 1959. 
Back in the day of vinyl's golden years and vinyl playback for radio, the word "transcription" was analogous to the term "chronometer" in high-end watches. There were stringent specification standards to meet. Listen to a fully restored deck and then express your opinion. 

You really need to listen to a Garrard 301 or 401 with a good tonearm and plinth to understand the sound and appeal. I have a Garrard 301 and now am done looking for a different turntable. I have had Technics, Thorens, Basis, Michell, Rega, and others.

Unless some particular vintage gear is one’s fancy I see no reason.
For example, nobody wanted idler drive tables back in the golden age of vinyl. Now there is a cult built around restoring and enhancing them. Maybe you put enough into one and do it right it sounds great but you can keep it.


Then again my Linn Axis is over 30 years old and still going strong. When the time comes to replace it, I will consider new well reviewed models that I can afford.

Nowadays I mostly only play a record once anyhow when I get the urge and immediately convert it to digital and store it on my music server where I will go to listen to it when I want from then on.
If you are still a dedicated vinyl lover, then God bless ’ya. Heck I’d love to own a genuine Gramaphone or similar retored original device to play old 78’s on. A Blast from the past!

Saving money is not the only reason to refurb an older idler-drive table. Some folks just enjoy taking something old, and making it new again (relatively speaking). I restored a Garrard 401, and mounted a Dynavector 501 (also a DIY restoration) on it. Both are built like a tank, and sound, I think, extremely good.
 
A goodly part of my system was either built or modified by me, and I find that highly satisfying. Oh, and I did save some money, too.

Enjoy,
Dan 

I have not listened to the Pickering yet.  It just sort of hit me in a way when I received it that you really are taking a serious risk with some of this stuff.  I am not saying that there is not any quality gear out there from yesteryear, there certainly is.  It just that you are taking a risk, a big one in some cases as older Micro Seiki tables as some of the members have are just very expensive for a used table, especially if you do not know the owner that had it last.  Even investments of 2 to 3 k for a table going on 50 years old is taking a chance.  Motors burn out, can you still get support and parts for it? etc.

Just because you can't tell the difference in sound does not mean others cannot, or that none exists. No idea why you think older tables sound "smooth and warm." 

I think @albertporter could tell you his story better than me-- he had a Walker- a fancy, no holds barred modern (at the time) table and was experimenting with the Lenco (if memory serves). He liked the propulsive aspect of the idler but wanted to get the noise floor down, which led him to experiment with the old SP-10; he developed a rather elaborate plinth using panzerholz and worked on all kinds of isolation tweaks, together with mods done by Krebs.
I have an ancient SP 10 that I bought new back in 1973-4?. It’s not the Mk ii or iii, and doesn’t have the attributes of those tables. I nonetheless had it restored at modest cost for use in a second system. (Though I have not yet mounted an arm).
@ddk (who posts here occasionally) has a veritable museum of high end tables. He could speak  better to what he likes about them- recognizing that none of them were bargains, even used, older or in need of restoration.
My main table is relatively modern- though it is now 12 years old. I certainly wouldn’t mind having an EMT from the right era, though.
@syntax knows a lot about the big old Micro-S. Also very desirable, but again, not like you are saving money buying one compared to a new table.