What is the best way to tame a slightly bright speaker?
I actually disagree with the notion that a properly integrated sub can't make the tonal balance of a system better and in some cases much better. I have the same issue in my system of "bright" treble and when I introduced a REL sub and worked with it for awhile to make sure it was properly integrated, the tonal balance in all frequencies was much better and much more natural sounding. Sometimes the illusion of bright treble is just that - a tonal balance in the speakers that perhaps is lean in the mids so it brings attention to the highs more. |
If you want to tame your bright sound and beautiful voice out of it. You may try out Line Magnetic 508 or 805 SET amplifier (48W). Stock tubes are not bad. But after some tube rolling, it is an excellent amplifier to drive high efficiency speaker. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-line-magnetic-508ia-integrated-amp.542333/page-36 |
The TAD Evolution Ones played everything from audiophile recordings to low-bit-rate Internet radio with aplomb and authority. Teamed up with neutral electronics and a room not excessively damped, they should provide the buyer with richly musical enjoyment for years to come. It's easy for me to say that the Evolution One is a marvelous speaker—I found no fault with it. |
You say don’t say this, but it has to be said: Fix the problem where the problem lies...if you think your Speakers are bright, why do you want to put bandaids throughout the system? You’ll sacrifice everything you do from that point on because it’s all based on the fact you don’t like your Speakers. As soon as you say that you still like your Speakers and throw the word but/except, then don’t say there’s a problem with the Speakers. What you’re contemplating doing would be like buying a car based on which tires you want to have... |
Thank you again everyone. Don't worry, I'm not going to try to replace parts in the crossover. I'm not saying that those who suggested that are wrong, it's just that I don't have the skills required. I am trying the simplest, least expensive solutions first and I'm making progress on that front. So I have plenty of ideas to work with. I'll get it sorted out. |
It is very easy to change the balance and dynamics of the system with loading the source component. It is much like loading a MC cartridge properly. I have the Tortuga LDR attenuator in my preamp which allows loading on the fly and I can dramatically change the overall balance and dynamics by changing the input loading while listening.lower input impedance softens treble and has an impact on dynamics. Higher impedance has more treble registers but can get wiry. The bottom line is that you can alter the system to an optimal state for your source Zout / cables / Zin and get an optimal state. A lot of "Bright" speakers are simply faster and are better at revealing these imbalances. this is pretty easy stuff and should really have been included in any high end component. |
I have very revealing speakers that tend to sound bright with substandard recordings. I bought a schiit loki and it works very very well. For $149 it’s definitely worth a try.Also you could maybe try swapping out the diaphragm for a non-metallic diaphragm.Also some people mentioned padding down the crossovers and others cautioned against it. I would definitely try it just record the values of the stock configuration that way you can always put it back. |
I think that either the speakers or the amplifiers may be bright sounding, however I wouldn't start by replacing them. An overly simple solution might be to fit a small piece of foam over the tweeter, one where you could add a piece of cloth over it to increase it's ability to reduce the amplification. Not pretty but not expensive and not permanent and adjustable to your liking. |
Room treatment for sure, power conditioners and cables will not tame that speaker, if they do they are affecting or colouring the signal which they all claim not to do. Your speakers are a bright speaker, I’m very familiar with them. You can spend 000’s on cables, power and upstream components but the fact of the matter is in your room with those speakers interacting with the room and everything located within it, they are intrinsically a very open, “brighter speaker”. Also try repositioning them, less toe etc. That may work. But, and I say but, your best first option as mentioned above is room treatment, it is an inexpensive trial that I learned about years ago and what a difference it makes. More difference than any cable and especially and power conditioner!! |
Vandersteen CS2 Signatures use ear bleeding tweeters, but they run the audio signal through 3 capacitors in series. I am not sure that I would recommend doing that, but adding a solen cap or padding the signal with mills non-inductive wire wound 1 ohm resistors may do the trick. Cables may also help, but when I was having issues, I finally, out of desperation as I never really bought into AC conditioners bought a hospital grade isolation transformer and that cured my problem. Also, for under $100 for SE, and I suspect under $150 for balanced ICs you can get ICs made with Dualund's improved version of Western Electric wires, and I'd be pretty shocked if they don't sound better than your Analysis Plus ICs, but it certainly won't break the bank to find out. |
I have similar challenges and posted similar questions, got similar responses, here's what I have and have not tried so far - 1) Modify the crossovers - probably a good route for those with sound understanding of circuit design and comfortable working on gear, but that's not me, not yet anyway. 2) Change amps - I went to a tube amp and this helped, made a marvelous improvement in the mids (no surprise) but high end smear still there. 3) Room treatments - a never ending pursuit. Adding heavy draperies on the front wall, furniture in the corners, diffusers and/or absorbers at first reflection points on sidewalls have all helped. The draperies made a huge difference in my room, but I have a window on the front wall. 4) Speaker placement - I used the Cardas approach, then experimented with angle, ended up about 5 degree toe-in. Some report much improvement by moving the speakers to the long wall, but in my room that didn't help and made it nearly unlivable, but my room is only 11.5 feet wide. 5) Change/improve source. I have a PS Audio DSD and some suggested going to a "warmer" DAC, Mac or Bryston, but so far I have chose to stick with the PS Audio. 6) Power - upgrade everything you can in the power supply. For me, Cardas Clear M AC cord for the amp, plugged directly into wall, made a nice improvement. Listening room is already on it's own circuit, I will be trying a higher grade outlet next. Fuses maybe? 7) Isolation - improving isolation of the amp helped a surprising amount for me, so I will keep tweaking with other components too. 8) Different speakers have been recommended (I have Thiels) - well that's just silly, as I want to optimize the SQ of my current speakers. 9) Room correction components/software - kinda like the speaker crossover modifications, this is just beyond me at this point, I'd rather spend my audio dollars on other things for now. 10) Subwoofers - same as above. Someday probably, but not in the near future. 11) Cables and interconnects - I have avoided going down this rabbit hole so far. Bottom line - there are many ways to skin this cat. The good news is that most of the things I have tried so far, while not always helping solve the treble problem, have led to other very nice improvements, like detail, resonance, and staging. |
This may be redundant but get a multi band (31?) equalizer. First line of defense for room treatment especially if your room is small. The judicious application of equalizing bright speakers will more than compensate for the addition of yet another electronic component in your chain. Also makes a great notch filter for bass traps in a small room as well. I use one and find it indispensable. Not the "purist's" choice but it works and it is inexpensive. Have fun. |
I would strongly advise against any kind of messing around with crossover values. Any speaker worth its salt (certainly something as high-end as the TAD) has a network precisely tuned for attenuation, corner frequency and phase alignment in the context of the speaker’s impedance. Changing any of those values - caps, resistors, inductors, sometimes even minute changes in resistance from different hookup wire gauge - will throw off that tuning and have unintended side effects. You can’t just "pad" a driver in a typical crossover-based system without shifting other parameters. The room treatment and positioning suggestions are good, and based on measurements from the Stereophile review you might be able to use the directionality of the coax driver to your advantage. But I think speakers have an intrinsic tonality that your ear will always pick up on regardless of the particulars of the setup. I can hear this from speakers at shows - even if the room is totally dead or bright or unknown, you can still kind of tell what kind of energy the speaker is putting out. In the case of the TADs, in my run-ins with them I noticed a bit of hardness/ringing to the upper midrange/lower treble that I found fatiguing. I wonder if this is what you might be picking up on rather than an actually elevated treble response, especially given that the measurements from the aforementioned review seem quite flat in the upper frequencies, and if anything slightly tilted down in the top octave. If that’s the case, ameliorating with a different amp and/or cables may be more effective. I hesitate to go down the cable rabbit hole in a forum like this, but I’d avoid anything silver or tinned. Audience is a safe bet for natural, un-fatiguing highs, and I’ve also been impressed with Crystal Cable in a few different setups. |
MR squires,Why not, i have been doing this for years, AND IT WORKS.MOST TWEETERS AND SOME MIDS CONTROL THE AMOUNT OF POWER TO THE TOPS WITH A NP CAP, 0.X-1UF DEPENDING ON THE POWER.BY REDUCING THE CAP IS LOWERS THE AC SIGNAL TO THE TWEETER AND BALANCES THE AUDIO TO GIVE ONE A PURE TRUE TONE.IT ALSO PREVENTS THE COIL FROM BURNING.IF YOUR AMP HAS TO MUCH TOPS AND NO TONE CONTROL THIS IS THE BEST SOLUTION. |
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Your clear ovals May indeed be part of the problem. They are entry level Analysis Plus. Try their Oval 9’s. They remover some glare and add more robust. They should tone down your TAD’s peakyness. An inexpensive way to resolve your issue. Next, I’d by a Lyngdorf Room Correction Pre-amp and be able to create a sound curve that you like. Lastly, yes, your room is likely involved as well. Dan D’Agostino designed he-man amps before he got tossed from Krell. I haven’t heard your amp or system for that matter. You ought to consult with your dealer as he or she ought to want you Happ y with the tens of thousands you graciously spent with them. |
You might talk to Mark Kreckler at Soundings in Greenwood Village, CO. They specialize in Master Setting speakers. I would start there first. They also specialize in REL subwoofers. REL uses a different technology to create a sound stage in order to clear up high and mid frequencies. They are not designed to produce that heart throbbing bass, but to provide greater bass extension to provide greater relaxation when listening. |
Toeing out sounds fine. Not to harp on this, but simple attenuation is the right solution. Looking at the crossover, a resistor change looks extremely easy to do cause it appears accessible from the base and detachable with screws. https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55f2f41ee4b0ef7e0849e07a/t/56217563e4b0fd57269f160f/154372792... The tweeter section is at the top and you’d want to try higher values for the series resistor (before the coil!) to the tweeter’s positive input. Mills MRA is very cheap. You could also even just use alligator clips to parallel on incremental values to the existing resistor to determine the best overall padding. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm |
If you’re looking for an excuse to spend money, you have been given many. But my immediate instinct without a second’s hesitation is, “Oh! Well, just toe them out!” If you are receiving too much energy from the mids and the energy increases with frequency, toeing them out is a perfect fit. Directionality increases with frequency, too. So toeing out just a little bit has the most pronounced effect on the highest frequencies, less on mid, and it goes drops off rapidly from there. |
I own the TAD Evolution system with the E1s, C2000 pre and M2500 stereo amp. Source is Aurender N10 going Nordost Heimdahl 2 AES to the pre. Everything is connected to three dedicated lines via older PS Audio power cords, amp to the wall and other gear into an older Shunyata Hydra 6. Room was recently updated and all walls are still bare of wall hangings at this time. E1s are about 2.5' off rear & side walls and are around 8' apart. Floors are medium density carpeted. Sofa is cloth and about 10' away and five feet from sofa to rear wall. In my room, I'd say that the sound is never bright unless the recording is subpar. There is plenty of snap and sparkle when the recording has it. I've been listening for a few months with very little setup performed so far. My dealer will come around when I'm ready and we will finish dialing them in then. Speakers are toed essentially to the center of the listening position. I've heard the E1s with Luxman, Pass, Burmester, and maybe one other I'm forgetting. I preferred them with the matching TAD gear and voted with my wallet. I can't remember them sounding bright but they are very revealing and realistic. I'm no speaker setup professional, but maybe toe them in a bit to get rid of sidewall reflections. Play around with pillows and blankets to see if that may help as well. I've also used some plastic vases my wife had in her office to good effect. I have heard the D'Agostino Classic Stereo amp but not with the TAD gear. It was with the Wilson Sabrina. My take was that amp was like a vice grip with mechanical-like bass control and the midrange/treble was nice but it was not of the usual refinement of the other D'Agostino gear I'd heard and I guess at the lower delta it shouldn't be. I wish I could add more but I just don't have any experience with your speaker/amp pairing. You didn't say what source you are using but that may bring the brightness you are speaking of. Good luck in your journey; I hope what I've described may be of help. IMO, the TAD E1 is very fine loudspeaker. |
I have a pair of VMPS RM40 ribbons speakers that have 40" of ribbons drivers per speaker. They are very detailed, transparent, and dynamic with good bass. They have a tendency to get a little thin and maybe hot sounding with some recordings. After a couple friends came over with their ICs they liked a lot, we listened to my system using my Darwin Ascension and some Amadi Maddie Signature ICs that I have used for a few years and really liked. Both of these have silver wires. I’ve never thought they were etchy or hot in the highs, but when we switched to Teo GC ICs, we were all in agreement that the sound was much improved in the organic sound of live instruments and made a big difference to the overall sound. They also were every bit as detailed as the prior ICs. Later in this year, Doug Schroeder of Dagogo online reviews, told a couple of us about the doubling up of Teo ICs to each component and the 3 of us did the same listening test at a later date to hear the difference. I had bought a couple pairs of Teo GCs to run from the CD to pre and from the Phono to pre. The result was even more impressive than just switching to the Teo GCs. There was VERY noticeable improvement in ALL ways compared the single. The sound of the RM40s was now about as good as could be desired and definitely the best I’d heard from these speakers. And I used to be a VMPS demonstrator for the last 5 years the company was in business. These cables could be just the ticket. Whatever you end up doing, the doubling up of ICs, now called the Schroeder method in the Forum, will make a quantum jump in the performance of yours or any other system. The Teo’s will take them in the direction you want to go. I now have a pair of Vapor Audio Joule Black speakers and the Teos still sound fantastic with these speakers, and the Joules are much more organic and natural sounding than the VMPS’. Bob |
