What does one purchase after owning horns?
I was looking for a speaker that had the uncompressed horn sound and great integrated bass. This combination is very hard to come by. I ended up with a speaker from Serious Stereo which utilizes an Altec 604 driver. This point source speaker has a horn coming out the throat of the 15" driver. The crossover is around 1500hz. This speaker has highs to around 20Khz and lows in the low 20hz range and seems seamless to me. They are 101db efficient with an 8ohm load. The cost on this may be a little more than you are looking at but was the answer for me. A few others make a 604 based speaker such as Shindo but of course theirs is much more expensive. |
Well, you got your wish, dude. Another thread with "horn" in the title that was going ok. Then you couldn't resist taking a shot. And here we are. Once again. Ending on the same, old, tired theme of yours. -03-30-11: Dan_ed You must be looking in the mirror and talking to your self again dude! Check yourself ...... !!!! |
Weseaxas ... My response was in regard to friends that seem to love horns . I enjoy the Revels more than any other speaker that I have heard , but only horns have the uncompressed sound that many want and are willing to make sacrifices in other areas to get . I am looking for a pair of horns for are house at the lake , I felt horns would give us a different prospective on music . Regards Tim |
Weseixas, I think that Classic Audio Loudspeakers will be showing at Axpona. Its a new show, at a new location, so unlike THE Show or RMAF, everyone will be at square 1 trying to figure out how to make the rooms work properly. So you will want to keep that in mind regardless of the room you check out. If he has the T-1 there, the midrange horn runs from 250 Hz to about 10KHz. It has a beryllium diaphragm and so lacks breakups in the audio passband. Plus the magnet is a field coil. Field coils behave much the same way that ESLs do- those are the only technologies wherein the field does not sag when the amplifier makes power to move the diaphragm. So it is very fast and transparent! |
" but only horns have the uncompressed sound that many want and are willing to make sacrifices in other areas to get . " Genelec and ATC replaced horn (Altec604, Westlake, etc) main monitors in high-end recording studios starting in the mid 80's. Main monitors are used to impress the clients (rock stars like Police, INXS, Peter Gabriel,Pink Floyd etc etc. would hear themselves on these designs and modern rock stars still do so today) So while as a generality it is true that nothing sounds dynamic like horns, you can find dynamic uncompressed sound that is on par with horns in a few select cases. Studio managers did not take a step backward when they replaced older horns - in fact the newer designs performed at similar SPL and dynamics with better integration of bass and without the inherent distortion that you get from horns at elevated levels (non-linear compression drive effects). |
I would add that it is advances in technology that allowed conventional drivers to compete with horns in terms of dynamics: ferrofluid in tweeters, massive voice coils and high powered solid state electronics. In order to compete with horn inherent high SPL and dynamics, the newer systems were often actively powered with outboard individual Crown high power amplifiers dedicated to each driver. Modern active speaker systems have evolved so that the multiple driver dedicated amplifiers are built directly in to the speaker. |
Here is a history Main Monitors Horn systems have also improved and modern Westlake's with TAD drivers are amazingly good too as are JBL's or Meyers. My comments here are not to bash horns at all! Just mentioning alternatives - that is all. Although I would add that you can do far far better than an Altec 604 these days. Altec 604 is no longer competitive IMHO. |
Among the least colored and best integrated horn/high efficiency systems I've heard are the various speakers from Classic Audio that Atmasphere mentioned. These must be in the running. I also endorse the mention, made above, about the top level JBL horn systems. I like the EdgarHorns as well. These tend to be just a bit less ultra dynamic than some other horn systems, but, the have a fantastically natural and musically satisfying balance. In other words, I like the tradeoffs made by the designer/builder. |
I disagree with Shadorne's comment that the 604 is no longer competitive. It all depends on how it is implemented. If done properly in enclosures like the ones Shindo or Serious Stereo have designed these speakers can have a musicality that IMHO equals the best of the newer technology speakers. I have attended RMAF every year listening to many speakers of all types and have found few I would rather have and those would be speakers that are way more expensive. Of course everyone has their own preferences in the type sound they are looking for. I would not knock the technology unless you have heard it done right. |
Panel speakers suffer from having a diaphragm that is larger than the wavelengths being reproduced. This results in comb filtering and a highly variable with frequency and an uneven sound field with listener position. This makes them unsuitable for main monitors..... Shadorne Painting with a broad brush Shadorne, not all panel speakers use one panel and suffers from such.Also the mains are never used for mixing, hence most sound like S*** and are very poor for accuracy, they are there mostly for DB/playback and to assist deaf engineers... Regards, |
Seems we all have opinions/experiences that another seems to disagree with. I find Shadorne's comments to be far off the mark regarding Soundlab speakers at least. Oh well, I guess that is what makes us all individuals. What is gold to one is tin foil to another based on preferences, hearing ability, past experiences and in some cases ignorance - not having actually experienced a said product. Most, not all recording studios, would not use a speaker 7-8 feet tall by 3-3.5 feet wide that needs 5 feet or more dead space behind it. |
Grannyring makes good points. Many questions asked of the OP have gone unanswered, still, an interesting thread. "sold them because of the lack of bass to horn integration." How is that a fault of the Uno's? How did you try to integrate bass, sub/s or horn/s, location, type of EQ'ing? This ain't rocket science especially when you found the Uno's so satisfying to begin with. |
Vicdamone, There is a bit of an issue where the sub meets the mid horn on the Uno. To be honest since I have had the Trio I find the UNO & the Duo to be weak in that area. It is only due to the sub cut off being so high. Even so both are difficult to beat. Personally as you could guess I don't know of a better speaker all round than the trio. As unexplained earlier I had planars for 20 years & from all the revered manufacturers. |
Second the Apogee's. Either the Diva's or the Duetta Signatures; the Scintilla although a great speaker is realy hard to drive. Also, the Slant 8, an Apogee hybrid, is excellent and can be bought in the $1200-1500 price range. I have 2 pair to go with my Divas. There's an excellent pair for sale on Agon for $1350 from a guy who is well versed in Apogees. |
Responding to vicdamone, I had listened to the Duo and Duo Omega under very good conditions and a short demo of the Uno's in a room I felt was poorly set up. However listening to the Duo and the Duo Omega I was elated with both demo's and purchased the Uno's as a result. I'm well aware of the inner action of room acoustics, room interactions ect., however after talking to folks in the know and to people who own the same model, I came to the conclusion after a year of trial and error, and with the help of ASC and there tube traps that I would have to spend big money to resolve the issue. I must say there is much good about about the Avantgarde Uno. I loved them for what they could do and cursed them for what they could not. |
Madhf, Having owned both the apogee diva & duetta sigs, & had them modified with all the latest ribbons & crossovers I can assure you these will not apply. Great as they can be. The Diva being the least dynamic. I think what some people posting here are not realising is that powerful amps cannot substitue for the sensitivity and the way the AG horns couple to the air. I dont want to sound like a broken record or an ass, but most of the suggestions as a replacement mentioned so far will not do what the original posters Unos already did. Fact. The answer to the question is just better horns! |
Gotta know the amp unless you are willing to change that as well. I'm wondering why the bass integration was such a problem though? I've heard some indicate Avantgardes need to be set up correctly to get the drivers time aligned and fully coherent. Were you able to do that? You'll likely need other high efficiency speakers to just replace the Avantgarde (not the amp) and get what you are used to. I suspect if the amp sounded good on those that it will also sound good on other high efficiency designs. If you can afford it, speakers using field coil drivers might be able to do some of the same things with a lower power amp. Otherwise, I think you will be challenged to get what the Avantgardes deliver. |
Chadeffect, I would have to disagree, not everyone can deal with the coloration of horns , some can some can't and when driven with the right amplifier Apps don't lack for dynamics IMO. Before the usual culprits tag in, this is Audio , no checkered flag, I'm expressing my opinion of what works for me and why, if you like horns and 120 db fine.. Stereophile: "In selecting a speaker, especially at the highest levels of performance, individual likes and dislikes play important roles. Some people may be bothered by the Uno's residual horn coloration, even though its magnitude is small. " The measurements are well ...!!! http://www.stereophile.com/content/avantgarde-acoustic-uno-series-two-loudspeaker-measurements Typical of what is seen on high eff speakers, very difficult to get high sensitivity and a good balance. the broadband level across the upper mids will push the sound forward and while big on details will have tonal issues and a poor balance as the Bass is sacrificed for the mid details and without hearing this particular model ( i have heard other AG speakers) it would be lean and pinky on pianos with an artificial air on violins, tubby dis-jointed Bass due to the excessive dip in the mid/bass/mid area. Now many claim this type speaker is magic on SET's and this maybe true , SET's lack top end resolution vs SS, and a UNO on SS amps would have you ducking for cover IME. I guess if you like to listening to 105db + in your home then i can see the attraction of Horns and based on Atmasphere's comments about horns and panel speakers having similar openness it is not far fetched to recommend he give a panel speaker a listen. Yep a panel speaker with a sub might be the trick , as far as Apps go, i would recommend the mini-grand for his room. Regards, |
If I could handle them, very big and expensive horns and a good flea powered amp are the only thing I would consider as an alternative to what I have, larger OHM Walsh speakers running of the most powerful yet compact and efficient Class D amps I could afford. This approach is the total opposite of Avantgarde, but as such it achieves very excellent results using lots of power and muscle. mbl 101s is another radically different approach that might also achieve results that raise the bar. Neither will sound like Avantgarde though. Very different! |
I am currently using Beauhorn Virtuosos with Wavelength 300b or 45 amps, and I'm extremely happy with this set-up. Either combination can easily overpower my small apartment. I will be moving within a year to a house. I plan to then utilize my JBL 4550 horns. 300Bs on bottom and 45s on top with an electronic crossover. My additional plan is to be staying with these. |
Renmeister, when you owned your Unos did you ever consult with Jim Smith regarding the woofer integration? As the former but longest running importer for Avantgarde in the US, he likely knows more about them and their proper set up for optimal performance than anyone. Most anyone who has considered any model of Avantgarde knows their reputation for importance of set up. I certainly have not heard a large number of horn speaker designs but I will say the AGs I heard set up by Mr, Smith sounded more like live music than about anything I experienced, and without the typical horn colorations. |
"Painting with a broad brush Shadorne, not all panel speakers use one panel and suffers from such" All panels use diaphragms that are much larger than is desirable for broad even dispersion of their entire frequency range, small panels reduce the issues but none are entirely free of these problems. The big advantage of a well designed three or four way conventional speaker is that each driver can operate in a frequency range where it acts as a point source. Soundlabs are awesome. In fact Gordon J. Holt used large Soundlabs for many years which attests to their sound quality. I just offered some alternatives to horns as the op asked. I am not exactly sure if those who describe ATC and Genelec as S*** have actually heard them but then again there is no accounting for personal taste in this hobby. |
Hi Weseixas, if you have heard an AG horn you will find a sound like a electrostatic speaker on steroids. No honking nonsense. Coloration is some myth due to some old rubbish horns made by someone else. Be clear on that. I plugged in my Apogees not long ago. They are one of the finest planars out there, but they sound constricted after a Trio. Before the Trio I felt they were the finest speakers. But dynamic contrast aside, tonally they sound very similar just not as clear. No honking. I could never live with that. Shadore, regarding the ATC and Genelec I too could easily use the word S**t, but I have used 2 stunning ATC systems. Both in very good studios and one custom built for the space. But all the other ATCs I have heard domestically have had very bad sound. As for Genelec speakers I dont know how people use them to mix on. They are devoid of detail, even in places which have the room sorted out. Strikes me they are for people who just want a warm fuzz for sound. I doubt an AG owner would stand 30 secs with one. As I said earlier the answer to the question is a better horn. |
regarding bass integration of the horns with the powered subs I'd like to comment. using duos and later omega duos, highly modded, since many years. the problems some people are hearing are real regarding bass integration. it's a time delay thing. just look at the stereophile review of uno nanos in late 2008, especially the step response. the bass is at least 2 ms behind the mid horn. this is a long time.I'm using digital delay to fix that issue. makes a big improvement to my ears. another issue is the built in amp sits directly behind the drivers, not a good thing. for owners of duos and uno I'd like to suggest to remove the subs from the frame and place them roughly 2 feet in front of the horns. this will not only helps with bass integration in the time domain, it will also greatly benefit the horns because the subs vibration won't reach the horns anymore!! |
Better horns would be the answer for me, but in reality, the answer is "whatever you find you can listen to". I don't mean that to sound like people who like horns can never be happy with another speaker type. However, if you try to compare everything you like about horns to other speakers you will be looking a long time. You have to separate out what the strengths and weaknesses are with each speaker, regardless of topology or configuration, so try to keep an open mind and don't get hung up on what biases other folks have. ALL speakers add their own colors, |
Better horns would be the answer for me, but in reality, the answer is "whatever you find you can listen to". I don't mean that to sound like people who like horns can never be happy with another speaker type. However, if you try to compare everything you like about horns to other speakers you will be looking a long time. ALL speakers add their own colors. You have to separate out what the strengths and weaknesses are with each speaker, regardless of topology or configuration, so listen with your own ears and don't get hung up on what biases other folks have. |
Dan ed, well said in 1 paragraph. Strengths and weaknesses equals compromise. It is important to understand what each one of us wants from a system. Equipment reviews and forum opinions/experiences are great, but it takes years, IME, for trial and error to make some determinations of what is right and wrong for each of us. Atmasphere made the point that speaker/room/listener interaction is very important, as well as everything else upstream. So right. This takes time, patience, experience, know how and money in most cases, never achieving the expected results. Other factors such as room build and dimensions, and ac power design/execution play critical roles in all of this. In my many years ( and fortunately early on ), I had the pleasure of being invited to the home of my college music professor. Sitting in this room was a pair of Khorns, driven by a pair of M 9's, 7C , 15 ips master tapes, t.table with Rabco arm, and recordings of every genre. Served wine and cheese, with many hours to listen, I was so captivated, this was that moment for me. Everyone needs to have an experience like this, so they can have "direction". So now I own horns, with ss gear, and spend a good hour or 2 at a time listening when I can. Never thinking about changing a thing, other than what am I in the mood to listen to. Thank you for listening to my story. Mr D. |
Renmeister, I totally agree with you that the vast majority of speaker systems do not deliver the kind of "drama" of live music the way the Avantgarde, and other horn systems, are capable of doing. I find that most systems sound either dead and constipated, or they attempt to inject some life into the sound with an artificial edginess. I also agree with you that Avantgarde speakers do have some problems with the bass response. The model I am most familiar with, the Duos, tended to overemphasize a certain portion of the bass range ("one-note" effect) and the bass did not integrate that well with the rest of the sound. I personally thought that the positive attributes far outway the bass problems so I like the speaker overall. I don't think it will be easy to find a replacement for the Unos in your specified price range that will also deliver the same kind of lively sound. Also, one would have to consider whether a different amplifier will also be needed if you were using a low-powered amp with the Unos and the alternative were not as efficient. You should audition Audionote speakers. These are fairly high in efficiency, and are quite lively sounding. But, in some respects, they too have a problem with the bass response. The bass can tend a bit toward being loose. Still, on balance, they are quite musical and are relatively free from the nasal coloration that is a problem with horns and other high efficiency designs. If you can deal with lower efficiencies, try looking at speakers from the Triangle. These are quite lively sounding and quite musical. They are a bit bright, but, not in the harsh and unpleasant way many other speakers are also bright. |
I think it comes down to if you like horns, get better ones. There are other ways to push the limits in regards to dynamics and other aspects of good sound, but these will not sound like horns, however perhaps better than good horns even in enough other ways to matter. There is no one speaker I have heard that is teh absolute best in all regards. If there were, I would expect it to be widely known by now and there to be a consensus to that effect. No such luck! Honking/coloration need not be a problem with all horns, but enough of this has occurred in fact over the many years horns have been around to give horns an undeservedly bad name in this regard. I do think only the biggest and likely also most expensive horns, like the larger AGs, are the horns that raise the barrier overall. The size and cost is also prohibitive for many too though unfortunately. That is a sad but true dilemma that even most horn lovers must be willing to face. |
Hello Shadrone , There are 2/3/4 way panel speakers, why would they have a panel 2 large for the wavelength they are reproducing if they are using multiple panels/diaphragms . Also my statement about studio main monitors and not using them for mixing, is really because of there low accuracy regardless of who builds them. You cannot get good or accurate sound quality from soffet mounted speakers, but i will acknowledge there are those who like that sound, again there is no accounting for personal taste in this hobby... Regards, |
I've tried to stay out of this, but, the zealots are just begging for a rebuttal. Till I hear other wise, horns blow. It's not a myth, everything that those who don't like horns complain about is true. It doesn't matter how many times the horn fans say otherwise, they can't change the truth. Within typically sized rooms, and with enough power, other designs are capable of the same realistic dynamics. Obviously the OP wants something else, why don't we help him with what he asked for? |
