Vinyl - One Word - WOW!!

Vinyl: guarantied degradation of the original medium upon continual use, in need of frequent maintenance, friction based in the 21st century, limited data retention and mechanically based for reproduction, not to mention the sound, as of late totally sucks.

I just returned the Project Debut Carbon EVO and bought a Technics 1500C. And I upgraded the cartridge to the Ortofon Blue.

Very happy with it. 

Thanks everyone for your insight and help!

:goodtimes:

Coltrane1 is right, I am going to have to upgrade to a better turntable if I want to listen to my better LP's and compete with my digital collection. Ah, the nostalgia of it all.

I partially agree with you and understand your point completely. I hate the pops and clicks on many of my LP's, but when I get a good one and clean it properly, there is just a nice feeling to putting it on the turntable and sitting back between my speakers and just listening for 20 minutes.

However, when I'm multi-tasking I mostly listen to Roon like you. With a good setup, my DSD files sound especially good. There are so many songs to listen to it's crazy. But you can't beat the nostalgia sometimes.

@marcdds77 you need to upgrade your turntable. Even the MH7.3 is better. I had the 9.3, then moved up the chain to a $3k turntable on the used market. Even $3k isn’t much to spend on a turntable!

I also have a nice collection from the 70's. Some of them still sound good, others don't. But even some of the new albums I bought, even the 180 gm ones often have sound issues with clicks pops etc. I have a very nice Nessie record cleaning machine that helps, but...

My current setup is a Music Hall 5.1 with upgraded acrylic platter, a Grado MC Sonata cartridge mated to a Musical Surroundings cream, and it sounds darn good on a good amp/speaker setup. But I just heard a new Project X2B balanced system and it takes it up another level! I may upgrade to that upstairs and move my Music Hall downstairs.

😂

@tubeguy76 "Vinyl is pure nostalgia, don't get too wrapped up into it.  "

reel  to reel can get expensive, but thats pure BS. i hope no one else steps in it. 

demo that project debut carbon evo, but dont buy it. 

again, DONT buy it. table is garbage, but the cartridge that comes with it, the sumiko ranier, is very good. they were smart to pick a very good cartridge on a junk table.

even after claiming they did, the debut evo STILL has motor noise and way too much rumble in many of the tables. i got one of the bad ones. 

 

My jaded and jaundiced take is that one day you listen to a record and you are in heaven, smiling ear to ear. The next day not. One day you listen to your very good digital set-up and you again smile ear to ear, the next day not. Some days you try both and nothing. Time to go get a book or hope to find a good movie. With all that said, I am the first to admit that when my substantial investment in my two 'tables sound "on" it is extremely gratifying. The fact that such old and basic technology can touch the soul in a way that digital never does (for me) is magical.

Some experience no difference between the sound of vinyl and digital, while others say that vinyl is more open, lively and realistic. Interesting to hear of such opposite experiences. I wish I heard no difference, because a vinyl setup could easily cost 5x what a comparable quality digital setup costs. You could spend $5K to $10K and get a VERY nice digital setup, where you could easily spend that on a phono cartridge, or a tonearm, or a phono preamp... and you still don't have a turntable!

What's a vinyl?!

Dive in man. The water is fine yet quite deep…..

I spent a few hours today comparing streaming with vinyl.

Vinyl wins easy. The sense of space, air, and speakers disappearing was much better with vinyl.  One record of electronic music by Klaus Schulze sound as good steaming it. But comparing things like Blue Notes records it’s not even close. The sound stage is much more open and reaches out into the room with vinyl. In comparison streaming sounds dry, dead, with all the instruments smaller and stuck way behind the speakers 

@mambacfa , I can record records in 24/192 and snap back and forth between the actual vinyl and the digital copy. Nobody can hear a difference. If there is a difference in mastering between the digital and analog copies that will make a difference and it can go either way. Gains have to matched carefully or the louder version will sound better. If your digital performance is always behind the vinyl then you have work to do on your digital side. It should not be!

I'm not such an absolutist, I love both formats.  I have some titles where the CD sounds better, and some where the LP sounds better.  Even multiple versions of CDs will sound different, and of course various pressing of LPs will sound different.  I have 5 versions of Supertramp's Crime of the Century, and they're all different!!  My favorite version is an early Mobile Fidelity pressing. (1978 I think)  My newest version is a HiRes version on BluRay, and it's boring.  The transients are much better on the OLD MoFi pressing because the master tape was 40 years newer!  

Vinyl is VERY expensive, a TON of work and it takes up WAY too much room. It really IS a colossal PITA, as noted. BUT... it's totally worth it. Music is by nature an analogue and when you digitize it, you lose the realism that it captures and conveys. I have never had anyone listen on my system to a piece on vinyl, followed by digital (and I had a better and more expensive digital setup than the vinyl) and in EVERY instance the vinyl was the clear winner in terms of naturalness, openness and realism. Digital was always described as being "in a box" as compared with its vinyl counterpart.

I must agree with @pcrhkr.  I have a decent vinyl collection from "the good old days" in the 70's when it was either vinyl or cassettes.  I had a pretty good system back then and cleaned my records before playing them.  But now, with a very good digital system, vinyl is a PITA.  I am now spoiled and don't like to get up from my chair every 20 minutes, figure out what I will listen to for the next 20 minutes, clean the album, etc.  I am much happier listening to an album through Roon and let Roon curate music for me until I feel like listening to another specific album.  Plus, even with the best of vinyl systems, you still get the clicks and pops that you don't get through digital.  To my (older) ears, vinyl has nothing over my digital setup other than nostalgia, although I still enjoy fondling my albums, LOL!

To all of these people praising how good digital is today, what were you praising in 1980, 1990, 2000, even 2010!?

Digitalphiles act like digital has been good forever. And if you’re too lazy to clean a record, don’t even consider yourself an audiophile.

And get off my lawn! :)

Welcome to decent vinyl. We’ve been singing vinyl’s praises for decades!

I always find these analog vs digital debates entertaining. Many good points on both sides here, but they are unlikely to convince the many folks that are heavily invested in either, or confused about which path to follow.

In some fundamental ways these two are different experiences. I often compare music to food. Different flavors, textures, aromas, for different occasions, resulting in different experiences. And that, I think, captures the spirit of this debate and the experience of listening to music in an audiophile context.

For one thing, playing vinyl involves many more steps. Proper care and feeding of your equipment and media are essential to your long term enjoyment. It’s fiddly to say the least. And yet I find that selecting a disc, dusting it off and carefully lowering the stylus focuses my attention in a way that helps me to engage in the practice of listening.

It’s necessary to point out that there are many ways to listen and that is only one. I also love to create and listen to playlists and that is something that isn’t really practical with physical media but a total hoot with a streamer and a Tidal description. Exploring new music is another good example. Different horses for different courses. I deeply enjoy both.

But my affection for vinyl is rooted in an episode I had a long time ago. During a visit to Simply Stereo here in the Chicago area back in the 2000’s this very subject came up and they offered to setup a comparison just for me to ‘hear’ what they were talking about. They quickly put together a system of relatively affordable components and asked me to pick out something to play. Cafe Blue by Patricia Barber was then in frequent rotation at my house and seemed like good choice since I knew it to be a great sounding CD.

I was surprised at how easy it was to hear the difference. The CD sounded good but the LP sounded richer and more fleshed out. The differences were easily apparent to me. CDs were supposed to have greater dynamics, but it didn’t sound that way to me. My preconceived notions of the superiority of CD as a format were seriously altered. Over time I eventually upgraded my entire system but bought a Debut Carbon to further explore what I now knew I had been missing. It lead me to where I am today with an RPM-5 and a PS Audio phono-pre and a distinct love of Blue Note reissues.

The most important lesson I have learned in my journey as an audiophile is to trust my own ears. I was a skeptic regarding analog sound until I allowed myself to trust what my own ears were telling me.

Analog playback requires a commitment in time, money, space and effort. It is in many ways out of step with modern life, so the resistance to it is easy to understand. It is not for everyone. But there is something beguiling there that is often difficult for some to quantify or even describe.

So my suggestion is to listen for yourself and then decide if there really is something there for you. Regardless of what you choose you will have learned something from the experience. Maybe even to trust your own ears.

 

I remember records sounding better...sometimes. when I was young, my ears were better.  My ears are good for my age, but I can tell my high frequencies are not as good. So, I have a more powerful tweeter. The problem with vinyl is you can get a new records with clicks and pops, warps, the wow and flutter, the dust, the wear every time you play it. It will degrade and your record investment lathed down over tme. Stone age technology. Sure, in some cases vinyl can sound better with everything perfect, which is a far reach. Not worth the headaches and loss of investment

 

 

Great hearing this! There is nothing like a good sounding record, nothing. I do not have an expensive setup but sure love your excitement! I remember 35 years ago, cant remember when.  I heard a record really good for the first time. Is fun. By the way, you can do it on the cheap if you find good used table and match up the cartridge correctly to your phono-stage. A huge difference for me was getting a decent phono-stage . Big difference in sound and that is just with MM. Enjoy the sound. 

Project was the brand that brought me back to vinyl for a while. I didn't stay, but I learned some respect for what a good LP playback rig can do. 

Welcome to the club. I'm sure you'll find it a slippery slope in many ways. Equipment tweaking, treasure seeking, and aural euphoria. But don't give up on digital. If anything, the format can help you find good and bad vinyl. I don't konw that you need to spend 10s of 1000s of dollars to improve your listening experience. I mean you can but if you're starting out you don't want to have buyer's remorse about a piece of equipment that can't make a bad recording sound good.

I've found that when I buy vinyl vs digital (CD or HRes Files) it's very much about the release date and the matter in which it was recorded. Learning how to tell the difference between an original/second pressing vs a decades later remastering.

I have original jazz pressing I got from my father that I have duplicates of on CD and they both have places in my music collection. And sometimes I find digital to be better than vinyl for newer releases. It's all part of the hobby that goes beyond casual listening.  I know a guy that has remained committed to 8-track for decades because he loves the sound and even has a deck in his car.

Whatev Man

I have heard owned recordings from either CD/Vinyl used as a FLAC/WAV File, sent through a router/network to a Media Player.

I can't think of anything better, the Performers get there monies as a fair remuneration from the Recorded Hard Medium sale.

The Owner of the Hard Medium who has chose to produce s File Storage, get value for money, especially if purchased used (recycled/upcycled), certainly the produced file is another bite of the cherry and can have music at the system or all over the house if support for this is in place.

This does not rely on the New Model Data Centres, that can be seen from Space as the New Scars on the Land. Which come with the need to empty reservoirs and suck power plants dry, pumping out out into the waterways and atmosphere who knows what between the Power Supply and Data Centre.

A Subject certainly not for a open transparent discussion by any Government or Members of the Plutocracy to have a questions and answers aired in a Public Inquiry.    

I think @pindac is expressing regret at the downside of physical media being discarded as well as for the poor treatment of artists bt streaming services.

I'm afraid I use music, and my pleasure in physical media, as a way to ignore the outside world, climate change and suchlike, which I am forced to do in my medical house arrest. Leukemia and a bone marrow transplant means the very nicest of my neighbours (thankfully rather remote) might give me an unwanted something which I would not cope with.

pindac, your post is the first I remember seeing extolling the virtues of streaming because of the theory of anthropogenic global warming.  I don't find your argument to be cogent.

Each Individual on this Planet is today encouraged to discover a way to express a duty of care for the overall environment.

Making Minor changes to reduce a release of Carbon into the atmosphere is welcomed by so many who are living perilously as a result of the effects of rising water levels or Flooding / Drought, resulting from Climate change.

Pollution of the Atmosphere is probably not going to ever be resolvable, all are living with some form of threat to their respiratory remaining in good health.

Avoiding Polluting Water Courses, Estuaries ad ultimately the Oceans can only be a very good thing for all life that has a dependency on Water. 

We are all on the bus, the route is to be creative in producing more of what is damaging.

Occasionally the most simple changes can be put in place that when all do it there is a impact for the better.

Simplicity is the key, start with little steps.

If your Health or Environment allows, Walk a short journey or two weekly.

If the opportunity arises to Make Do and Mend, have a go, one less item of production is one less energy consumed and one less discard of waste into a waterway. 

As for a Hobby/enthusiasm such as HiFi, sticking loyal to chosen medium be it CD/Vinyl that has a embedded recording for a lifetime, is a activity that is admirable.

With the likes of the Vinyl LP, that has a wear and tear  that reveals itself during a replay, being the result of the medium having been extensively used, is one with a sentimental attachment, as the wear is most likely a result of the use the long-term owner has put the medium through.

I have a Sister who still goes out for exercise walks with a Sony Walkman and Cassettes kept from her Teen Years, it is these recordings on these cassettes that are valuable to her. Her Daughters give up years trying to convince her differently.  

There are enthusiasts who have recorded all their own medium onto a FLAC/WAV or MP3 and remains dedicated to the recordings on long-term owned Media, having found a new way to have musical encounters with them, that have the attachment to the same sentiment as the original owned Medium itself.

Any of the above are certainly innkeeping with doing something in the present day that will be seen as a valuable approach, aside from the Recycling, Upcycling, Repurposing, they are all methods to reduce ones impact on the environment, and encouraged to be maintained.

Each of the above if a little additional thought was attached could almost be run of a form of energy that is stated to be the future and much better for the environment. 

The OP has a perfect opportunity to Buy Vinyl and CD's both New or Used and use them for multiple years ( a lifetime even), as well as a FLAC, WAV or MP3.

To not discard and make do is the attractive outlook for a betterment for future generations  

 Now think of the Modern Alternatives, where the latest structures produced to support the methodology can be seen from the moon, and are spewing out Carbon and what other,  at a rate no one dare reveal as a True Quantification.

What about the, I sold my Multi-100, Multi-1000, CD or Vinyl LP collection to have a Streaming Service supply to me Multi-100's of Thousands of recordings at the instruction to a App. 

What an environmental disaster in the making and what a disaster for the Performers caught up in the monies offered for their work used on a streaming network. A penny for your thoughts is about correct.           

@baylinor + 1

People tend to forget about the persistence of vinyl. Maybe that’s to be expected when so focused on sound, but it’s worth mentioning. I was actually listening a few nights ago to one of the first records I ever found. Funkadelic - Maggot Brain. Bought for a dollar. I was 13. About 15 years later I came across one of my first decent digital finds. Pink Floyd - maybe listed under Screaming Abdabs - Vegetable Man. I downloaded it from Napster.  I have no idea where that file is now. The record I still have. My point is that someday, someone is going to cut off the streaming services. Wether it’s due to cost, rights, out of fashion, Trojans, or whatever. If you own it, you’ll always own it. I also have a general issue with my selection being made by popularity - no matter how big the pool. I talk to other DJs in the industry who only use digital services and they all play the same stuff. Sure it takes time and effort to mass a collection, but the trip is half the point.  

@bpoletti Couldn't Agree More ' I'm Vinyl to the Core '.  Also a recent convert to CD as a Source and will have a Streaming Source as well.

I no longer distinguish between the two sources, I embrace each for the musical encounter able to be created. 

As I do the bulk of my listening in the company of my Wife, who has a 'go to' device that is Alexia to have her most frequent musical encounters, I can assure one that it does not have to be anything complex to enjoy a replay of a favourite tune, just a different way to receive the sound. 

Just enjoy the music and don't worry about the source.  My opinion is that vinyl is much better, but I still enjoy CD.  It's all about the music.

I like my vinyl, CD and streaming rigs equally well. Zero preference in overall sound between the 3, just the different mastering on each recording can make a significant difference. It obviously is related to the quality of each of your systems and in what listening environment they are played. To say one is way better than the other points to shortcomings in some of your systems and listening environment. Just my experience. 

Couldn't agree more with the fact that master tape to vinyl recordings are the next best thing to being there live! I've got hundreds of good vintage pressings from the 60s & 70s in my collection and a few from the 50s & early 80s. The newer pressings engineered from the original master tapes aren't too shabby either! For those of you vinyl lovers who may find yourselves in the area, for whatever reason(s), I would encourage you to drop into a vintage (and new vinyl) store I happened upon over the holidays called:  "Purchase Street Records". It used to  be located in New Bedford, MA but has since relocated to Pope's Island in Fairhaven, MA. Great Store!  Great people! They've got a website. Check 'em out!

Both sound fantastic with the right setup. A clean vinyl recording with the joy of handling the physical media vs the convenience of having an endless supply of music? Why not do both as best you can within your budget! If I had an unlimited budget, I would pick vinyl. If I had a limited budget, I would stream. If I could do both, I would. Overly simplified, yes! However, you're statement which has evolved into the usual chase down the rabbit hole has no right or wrong answer and never will. If all I could have is an am-fm tuner with a coat hangar antennae playing music through 30 year old speakers from Radio Shack, then that is usually infinitely better than listening to music through the speakers on my phone. However, sometimes it is not as well. 

An analogy for this topic is:

Analog = pencil never leaves the paper when drawing an analog

sound wave

Digital = the pencil leaving the paper thousands of times

to draw a sound wave
hence a digital  sound wave is  a sample of an analog sound wave

system dependent

good luck Willy-T

@dogberry 

Love it!

I wish I’d saved the image used by the Revolver TT advertisements - shooting the cartridge off the arm like a bullet and smashing a CD - that they used in the 1980’s. It would be useful at times.

Vinyl playback doesn’t have to be dreadfully expensive (of course, it can be, and that depends on how much you sink into diminishing returns).

Step 1: You can get good sound with a relatively cheap table and MM pickup, as long as you clean your records.

Step 2: To equal CD sound, simply clean your records as best you can. A machine is needed, but need not be crazy expensive. You are considering an MC pickup and a new phono stage.

Step 3: To blow CD out of the water, you are spending big bucks on a good table and arm, and an expensive cartridge that will last, maybe, a thousand hours before rebuild. You are now using an ultrasonic cleaner after the vacuum RCM you have already purchased.

Step 4: Discogs is now the most frequent entry in your browser history. You know the different types of detergent and enzymatic cleaners available for your record cleaning machines and you have your own recipes and protocols for getting the best from them. You have multiple turntables sporting multiple tonearms. You have a choice of anti-static devices for your discs, and an ultrasonic stylus cleaner. Two USB microscopes for checking stylus status and rake angle. The price of your phono stage is a state secret. You sit slack-jawed and happy all day listening to music, looking like a wino who found a $50 note.

Step 5: I haven’t got there yet, and may lose the ability to type if I do......be warned.

@alvinnir2 

there are literally 100s of millions of old/original records all over the World in attics, basements and used record stores

"Old" vinyl, pressed before the digital era,  when that vinyl was made from the analog master tape sounded great. I have several friends with 1000s of records bought in the 60s, 70s, kept in pristine condition. Most sound wonderful.

Current vinyl is a horse of a different colour. Almost all current vinyl you can buy (except perhaps audiophile pressings) has been made either from original recorded to digital masters or from digital copies of the original analog masters. Once the music has gone through one or 2 format conversions before being vinyl, it will have lost some of that analog magic. 

So if a current purchase new LP sounds better on your turntable than your digital source, and they at some point were from the same digital master I can only come to one of 2 conclusions why:

#1 Your analog implementation (turntable, tonearm, cartridge, phono preamp) is  better than your digital.

#2 Your analog front end alters the sound in some way that makes it a more  pleasing for you. Nothing wrong with that. The purpose of this hobby is the pursuit of musical enjoyment.

I personally found very little difference on current pressings between my digital front end I described previously and my analog front end (VPI Prime, Benz Wood, Art Audio Phono preamp).

That's pretty much why I stopped buying vinyl.

So for those with huge old record collections, enjoy your treasures, but for those starting to build a record collection from scratch , well.... have fun I guess.

I no longer spend all that time physically going to stores to buy records although I do miss the thrill of finding a forgotten treasure in some dusty record bin in somewhere land.

" You can't match the best digital performance until "

define "best"

wait..... don't

As already mentioned by a colleague here, open RTR is so good that it is a new best analog experience for most of us — even gray beards like me. It is not inexpensive and as much of a pain as vinyl. But the reproduction quality explains why restored RTR players have tripled in price in the last few years and why new RTR companies are now being created in EU. Good listening.

Oldaudiophile,  You are not so old here.  Many of us are antedeluvian and superannuated.  In one of my two systems I am using Transmission Line woofer cabinets that I built in the early 1970s, when I was a medical intern.  Mijo is only slightly younger.

these posts (although the posts itself is pretty lame) always bring out the mean snobs and snarky jerks. We ALL know you are NOT hearing music worth hearing unless you built a separate house for your 120K gear.

I'm now going to demo the Technics 1500C TT.

And I'll compare with the Pro-ject.

 

@alvinnir2 

@lewm 

+1

Just enjoy them both and you are going to get tons of opinions here. Only a few worth listening to. 

Bunch of armchair engineers, using old, outdated software and science like stuffing subs in corners.   

Vinyl lovers, audioman, mijostyn and the other vinyl bashers couldn't be further from the truth! Need to spend thousands for cables? Even more for a good digital set-up? 10K for a good analog set-up? 35K? Rubbish! I've been doing this since Christ was a corporal (i.e.  early 1970s)! Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, comparing apples to apples, vinyl has a definite edge over digital and, notwithstanding personal audiological factors, you need not spend exorbitantly to hear this advantage. This is, of course, in the humble opinion of my ears. For those ears that disagree, that's perfectly fine! Of course! Enjoy your digital systems! By all means, listen to the music via the medium(s) you prefer! It is true, however, that vinyl requires more care and dedication to achieve wonderful fidelity (i.e.  clean records; good pressings; etc.). Digital is easier, more convenient.