I bought an older pair of Vandersteen 2Ce and did not like them. Found out one woofer was crackling (what I did not like was poor tweeter and midrange). I went onto the Vandersteen forum to see if changing a component or two would better the sound than 25 year old speakers. In 2022 almost anyones speakers sound better than 25 year old Vandersteen technology.
The replies raised my eyebrows. I was just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with that forum and did they find it cult-like or is it just me?
Got my first Treo';s from Johnny and now have Quatro's. I was a huge fan for many years after hearing the 2's and meeting Richard in 1983, They were set up perfectly and it was at Stereo Unlimited in SD (Navy time).
I then went to buy a pair of 2's in RI in the early 90's when I could afford them, but the dealer liked ProAc better and those were set up correctly and the STeen's weren't. I disliked them at that point for that reason, but didn't realize it.
I left that store with 3500 ProAc's instead and built from there. Then when I wanted new speakers, I went to Rutans to get the ProAc's as he was the closest dealer. He made me (and my family) listen to Treo's. We all were floored and it was a no brainer. I was hooked. Still am. As Richard has said the speakers will measure well, but from there he can tweet and make them sound better and better. He's kept doing that for so many years now and those of us who deal with his company know how personally he takes each speaker and his support is as good as anyone's can be. It's not a cult as much as Wilson isn't a cult or Magico isn't........
@stringreen I’m guessing you got your 5a’s from John Rutan. I bought my first pair of Vandersteen 3a Signatures (used) last year and the Vandersteen Forum has been a great, welcoming place to get advice. Between the forum and Audio Connection, I was able to tweak placement and setup to the point where my system has never sounded better. Great people and Richard’s an active participant too.
I bought my Vandersteen 5A’s in New Jersey and the seller set them up beautifully. When I moved to Arizona and took the speakers and the same components, they didn’t sound the way I remembered. Richard himself called and offered to help set the speakers up over the phone with some of my tools. The result is music that sounds real...with space and depth. ...it took a couple of days and call backs, but was a wonderful experience. I always learn from the Vandersteen website....a great place to read and reflect
I am an aerospace engineer. My dad was an audiophile for decades. He designed and built his own amps, preamps, feedback loop subwoofer (circa 60's), and even designed and built an electronic starter for cars in 1973-4. Because of this background I have always looked at specs. Over time I started getting away from the engineering and started listening to the music. This can be good and bad. Everyone has a sound they like, hence all the variations of sound from manufacturers. However, if the goal is to repeat the sound as it was produced then you can't turn away from the engineering/science. I've now come full circle; I will look at specs then listen but if the specs are bad I won't.
I own a pair of B&W 802 D3 Matrix for over 20 years. Been very happy with them. My goal was not to color the music. I liked these speakers because of their "newer design" stiff individual boxes for woofer, mid, and tweeter so as not to color the sound. I'm in the market for new speakers now. I have always been impressed with the sound of Wilson WATT Puppies, ignoring the specs, they sound brilliant. This could be due to men not having as good capability to hear highs.
Again, I want no coloration, my definition of my goal as an audiophile. When reading about speaker design, enclosures/reflections, baffles, cross-overs, and cone distortion I saw few that met my goal, no distortion. Then I read this article SoundStage-Richard-Vandersteen.pdf (troelsgravesen.dk)
I've read your above comments, thinking Vandersteen people are cult like, so maybe you will consider me as another "drinking the Kool-Aid." Again, I don't own a pair of Vandersteen's I read the article regarding his research and reasoning.
If your goal is to have speakers that reproduce the sound, then they should be time and phase correct; I had to consult an expert in electronic cross over theory. His statement is that you can't simply change the polarity + to - to correct for phase. I think Richard Vandersteen created his first speak, with multi-cabinet enclosures and minimal baffles in the 70's. In the 70's all speak designs, except of V, had one enclosure with a huge baffle which creates distortion. He even looked at when the speaker cone is on the return, there is reflection (distortion) due to speaker structure, to create minimal distortion.
When I looked at the Wilson Watt-Puppies plots, phase correctness, ect, I was at best disappointed.
From an engineering standard V are better. It's up to you if you like the sound.
gdnrbob +1 FWIW I didn't notice that the forum was for Vandersteen owners only!
Helping with personal invite from Bob, was sort of gentlemanly.
And Bob’s reaching out was in an honest spirit.
There is a bit of bias against Class-D (if you see what I did there.) So it is good for those interested in Class-D to hear other perspectives, and we do not have a lot of Class-D amps that one might consider worth investigating.
So in my mind you acted honourably.
And @ctsooneris a fine fellow as well, so it was a bit perplexing to see.
It is 41C here today and 42C is scheduled for the morrow, Body temp is 37C.
So the extra heat from the tubes, is at least one reason, that I am thinking about Class-D.
If anyone is to blame, it is I. (-As Jane Hathaway would have said).😏
I invited Ralph to join in a thread to discuss time/phase delay in his new Class D amps, because I don’t have the knowledge or verbal/written ability to either make or rubut any questions regarding said topic.
I felt having the designer say, in his own words, what he has done or believes, would be the most direct way of addressing the issue.
Yes, the forum says you have to own Vandersteen, and I have no issue with that. But, when it comes down to providing information on a subject that is directly related to the Vandersteen Time/Phase issue, I think it wise to allow other designers to have a say, if only in the interest of ’fair play’. Yes, Mr. V. is footing the hosting bill, but to exclude differing or questioning opinions, based on a forum technicality, seems to lessen the benefits of discourse.-Especially, considering that Ralph conducted himself properly.
Board Rules state “the only true rule is to not be an antagonist.”
Me glancing at mirror… 😅
@nrenter@rpelusolet’s not jump the gun here.
we all share the hobby and love.
And I would not be surprised if Ralph gets unbanned.
It is not like he is spruicking his gear in an underhanded way there, and while most Vandy owners like more traditional topologies, I know at least a few are interested in Class-D.
Our community is becoming short on insights, experience, expertise and engagement. There are still a few trusted resources around, @audioconnection being one. @atmasphere being another. I like to hear their voices (before, like the names many of us can still recall, disengage, die, or become bored attempting to answer the same questions over and over). We kinda need to hear their voices.
Silence at your own peril.
Well put. In an era of internet warriors and “experts” it is good to have the inputs of true experts in their fields.
Let’s let this play out and maintain some calm…
Ralph and Pete are both on the gentlemanly end of the spectrum, let’s give it some time.
Board Rules state “the only true rule is to not be an antagonist.”
Look, anyone can run their forum however they see fit. I don’t begrudge that. But we all know the quality of the forums are directly proportional to the quality of the contributions. Not the quantity of contributions. Not shilling. Not trolling. Not advertising. Not antagonizing. Not hype. Not hyperbole.
Our community is becoming short on insights, experience, expertise and engagement. There are still a few trusted resources around, @audioconnectionbeing one. @atmaspherebeing another. I like to hear their voices (before, like the names many of us can still recall, disengage, die, or become bored attempting to answer the same questions over and over). We kinda need to hear their voices.
@ctsoonerfeel free to delete my account and all my posts over at the Vandersteen forum - I don't see a way I can do it myself. @atmaspherehas always been genuinely additive to the discussions. If the forum is going to devolve to fanboys constantly posting how everyone should upgrade to the Quatros and Richard's word shall not be questioned, then I'm out.
Guys, the Vandersteen forums are only for Vandersteen owners. Richard set the forums up that way as a replacement for the 'ask Richard' section. There are many set up threads, music threads, what components marry well with Vandersteen's etc... There are other manufacturers who have tried posting there and they too have been blocked from posting, but can read. This has NOTHING to do with Ralph, who even Richard said, makes nice gear and I know it plays great with Vandersteen speakers.
Ralph was a great poster who shared info about his gear. A few of the guys on the forum own Ralph's gear and love it. I'm not an engineer, nor do I pretend to be one. I do love music (gear too) and am blessed to get to hear a ton of stuff.
This is because THD has nothing to do with ’timing errors’; but I really didn’t know what the poster meant by that, so I asked for clarification.
Richard has posted on that forum that amps with zero feedback have less timing errors. But what is meant by that was not defined. Anyone familiar with filter theory knows that phase shift affects the amplifier at its extremes of bandwidth since essentially the stray capacitance and the like that rolls off the bandwidth is acting as a filter, usually one of 6dB/octave. If you look at the input vs the output of the amp on an oscilloscope, the output will appear to be delayed in the region of the phase shift. Is this what Richard was talking about?
I find it really odd that I got suspended on that account but maybe it was something else; however the email I got seemed to suggest that my question was the problem.
I've owned B&W 802 Matrix Series 3 for 20 some years. Always wanted Wilson Watt Puppies but after reading this article a lot of the engineering Richard Vandersteen did in the 70's and 80's seems to indicate that he was ahead of the times. Listening to the "brightness" of the B&W's or Wilson's sounds sweet but my goal is to hear the same sound as produced in the studio. From an engineering standpoint Richard has addressed many of the engineering issues that cloud sound reproduction. I've listened to Vandersteen's a little bit and still have not decided on Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT's or Wilson Watt Puppies.
I have no issue with the OP and Richard didn't either. Richard has zero problem with anyone who wants to change his designs by installing other drivers or guys who want to rip the speakers down and take off teh socks and poles and paint them black etc...
He was very specific about that as folks own them and can do whatever they want to with them. The issue I have is when folks modify someones design, you shouldn't start posting how you don't like them etc.. if you do, please let people know that they aren't really a Vandersteen speaker (or add any other product) anymore. I feel that's fair.
You just got very defensive quickly when I told you he was the designer and you kept asking who the engineer was. That was answered prior and you just went on a rant about the designer not being an engineer.
Other posters from that board have already make salient points about your posting. We did try to help you as we try to help everyone (Richard included) and you wanted nothing of it or you would have gone to the other threads where all your questions had already been asked and answered. You didn't come off as genuine as all you kept posted about was an associates degree in engineering (although I believe you made it seem like it was a 4 year degree) adn then telling us all more than a couple of times how you are a spine surgeon. You then always say how that doesn't matter. I COMPLETELY agree with you. It DOESN'T....
You are the first person that's ever had a post taken down and also the first to be banned. If you were serious about your questions and really wanted help getting your very old and used speakers into true Vandersteen working order (to save the time and phase correctness that we Vandersteen owners loves and why we come off as cultish), you would have done that, but as I said, you didn't even try to take the kind help that we all tried to share.
I'm not surprised that you immediately came to Audiogon to try and get folks to support you. I hope and pray that you are as honorable as you claim and tell anyone looking to buy yoru speakers that you share the true condition of the speakers and don't take advantage of someone the way you may or may not have been taken advantage of (you did overpay for them by a lot and when Richard was honest with you, that's when tenor of your posts changed. I've known Richard since the early 80's and he's as honest as it gets in this business and he's also very direct. It does turn off many folks, but I personally love that about him. I wish more in audio were as honest as he is.
I'm glad you found a pair of B&W and I honestly hope you paid a fair price and live with them forever. IT's all about the music and having fun with it.
Any forum has its regular Joe’s, don’t worry, just keep at it.
every,forum I started at, was hazed, belittled, poked fun of for punctuation, the brands I like, their just having fun, just keep writing there, you will fit in.
Hell,avs, Conrad Johnson, Cerwin Vega, audio circle, all had some smart butt things, it will pass. Enjoy. Cheers.
Just wanted to mention that YouTuber Steve Gutenberg said he'll be reviewing some Vandersteen speakers (didn't say which ones) later this year. Should be interesting.
He mentioned that he liked previous ones and has known the owner for years and years and years.
Lets also take a moment to clear up some factual errors;
I’m unsure whether the OP cares about facts or factual errors.
Yes, Richard is extensively involved in designing elements of drivers, including many unique drivers partially fabricated in CA by Vandersteen Audio. He ( not Scanspeak, etc ) holds the Vandersteen unique patents. For fun have a look at the Vandy website, the 5A and 7 mk2 use a Vandersteen designed push pull titanium subwoofer driver, lots of tricks there… Vandy owns the tooling to produce it.
The OP was stating how easy it would be stuff his drivers in there, and end up with a better speaker
And as I recall RV told him it is a free country and if he wanted to make better speakers he was free to do so.
So I am doubting that the OP is overly enthusiastic about sticking to facts.
Every second 10,000 sine waves are arriving to your ear That is 29,979, 245, 800,000 nanometers in a vacuum.
I hate to be another bearer of facts, but light travels at ~3^8 meters/second.
Giving all the significant digits of resolution and precision is great… but let’s dumb it down to approximations.
- Light travels about 1 foot per nanosecond.
However sound is known to travel only at the speed of sound... which is not the same as the speed of light.
Sound travels about 1 foot per millisecond in air… so it is a million times slower than light, and sound also doesn’t travel well in a vacuum.
I believe that using the correct speed of sound may be an important concept for designing speakers, or improving upon your model 2 speakers.
(Maybe the 2C has the C part referring to the speed of light?)
Pretty much any driver in a Vandersteen speaker built since 1977 can be rebuilt or replaced by contacting the factory in Hanford CA. There are a few exceptions to this, the model 4 ( note NOT the same as Quattro ! ) , and the custom matched drivers in Treo and up. Treo and up definitely require a call to factory. For a Model 2, as was the DIRECT input given by the inventor, “send the suspect driver in w RMA form, and we can rebuild it.”
Lets also take a moment to clear up some factual errors;
Yes, Richard is extensively involved in designing elements of drivers, including many unique drivers partially fabricated in CA by Vandersteen Audio. He ( not Scanspeak, etc ) holds the Vandersteen unique patents. For fun have a look at the Vandy website, the 5A and 7 mk2 use a Vandersteen designed push pull titanium subwoofer driver, lots of tricks there… Vandy owns the tooling to produce it.
Hopefully all are enjoying the music and beating the heat !
back to my day job improving Quantum computing…. well, for a few hours a week…anyway….
Restore them to their original condition and then decide.
Vandersteens need a lot of power, by the way. Very sensitive to room placement.
I've had 2CE, 3A and now have Model 5s which are breathtaking, according to most people. And me.
I called Vandersteen with a question about replacing the batteries in my crossovers and I was told someone would call me back. About 45 minutes later, Richard Vandersteen called me. I was thrilled.
Vandersteen speakers have a sound. I love it. Some people don't. That's why they make different speakers. It's all good.
The OP likes his B&W speakers, so leave him alone.
We tried to help him, but he had other ideas which are fine and dandy. As Sir Vandicream said to you, as well.
I just don't get the reason for the issue here.
Yes, they are your speakers, and you are free to do as you wish to them. But, to go on a forum for that brand and expect others to agree with your desire to 'modify' them, and then lash out against them when they disagree, seems a bit strange.
Just buy the 2CE Sig III and be done with it. Enjoy the sound. The Vandersteen speaker brand and 2CE model would not around for decades if it were not for the fact they are well designed and sound very good even in 2022.
I guess one could argue they are a better speaker engineer than Richard and replace his woofer with a Bose woofer and not ever hear the difference?
Every second 10,000 sine waves are arriving to your ear That is 29,979, 245, 800,000 nanometers in a vacuum If one of the speakers is one inch farther away at 10,000 hz do u realize how ignorant it is to try to put those two signals in-phase?
It is possible that it might have been your tone that set people off?
As an idea I’ll add “a #4” to my previous list of 3 finite possibilities:
1: Speaker driver:
What I would suggest is to get a Parts Express DATS. Remove the driver from the speaker that works. Then once you have measured its T/S parameters, you can find a good candidate for a replacement.
Whether what matches best is that JBL, a ScanSpeak wu18, or something else like a Peerless or Seas, is unknown… but at least it would be a way to select a driver that does its best to work with the existing crossover.
2: Crossover:
You could move the crossover left to right to determine whether, in fact, it sounds the same in the existing good speaker.
MY speakers were $800 plus $400 for shipping. That isn’t as good as one guy who paid $175 but better than the eBay guy who wants $3000. It was Sir Vandicream that was the one who said I paid too much for my speakers so he himself does not value them at $800. Why the heck should I fork-out $400 to $500 to send them to the Vandersteen Factory (including 2 way shipping? Is it not my choice?
I think your post over there may have been interpreted as you spent the $3000 and $1000 in shipping… which was at least how I had read it. Maybe other’s did not come to a similar conclusion.., “I dunno”.
BSPKE is a nice man. He offered good advice and was a gentleman.
Agreed… and I’ll strive to try to be more like @bkeskeand Gentleman Jim @tomic601.
"i drove around in this porsche i just bought with a flat tire, geez it just drives like crap, so i went to the porsche forum, asked people can this car be made to drive better if i went to jrz coilovers instead of the stock bilsteins... and man, those people had nothing useful to say, just told me to fix the flat, don’t modify anything, and wouldn’t engage on anything else.... what jerks...
I think that it is even worse than that @jjss49,as the OP was suggesting replacing the one driver with a JBL… so it would be like running the Porsche on 3 Michelins and 1 Pirelli.
But maybe he was talking about using all JBLs?
In your car analogy, I guess that the JRZ coilovers would analogous to the crossovers? So I think one may want to tune the suspension to the tyres?
I cannot see any easy way to do that. I only see finite options:
The RMA approach.
Going full DIY and wiring each driver in an active crossover scheme.
Or totally reworking the passive XO from scratch.
#3 is way beyond my skill.
I feel for the OP, as I would be upset if I spent 4K on used speakers and a driver was blown. And knowing I could have got them brand new for $5350.
But that decision process was not the fault of the V forum.
"i drove around in this porsche i just bought with a flat tire, geez it just drives like crap, so i went to the porsche forum, asked people can this car be made to drive better if i went to jrz coilovers instead of the stock bilsteins... and man, those people had nothing useful to say, just told me to fix the flat, don't modify anything, and wouldn’t engage on anything else.... what jerks..."
reading through all these posts on this thread, must say a few elements are surprising/amusing
-- if someone knows they have a blown/malfunctioning driver in a well respected speakers (even a NOT well respected one), why would they not have that repaired first and foremost -- before making ANY assessment or comment?
-- why talk anywhere about redesigning such a speaker without ever hearing it working as it should be, much less go to the brand followers’ forum to complain?
-- all this from a purported MD/medical professional?
man o man...
"i drove around in this porsche i just bought with a flat tire, geez it just drives like crap, so i went to the porsche forum, asked people can this car be made to drive better if i went to jrz coilovers instead of the stock bilsteins... and man, those people had nothing useful to say, just told me to fix the flat, don't modify anything, and wouldn’t engage on anything else.... what jerks..."
I bought an older pair of Vandersteen 2Ce and did not like them. Found out one woofer was crackling (what I did not like was poor tweeter and midrange). I went onto the Vandersteen forum to see if changing a component or two would better the sound than 25 year old speakers. In 2022 almost anyones speakers sound better than 25 year old Vandersteen technology.
The replies raised my eyebrows. I was just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with that forum and did they find it cult-like or is it just me?
My set of 2C are about 38 years old now, and they sound fine.
In addition to the other posts about the RMA, your saying that you spent $4k for a used set that and being told that it was too much probably was not well received.
I am on a few of the various cult fora… Here, Vandy, ASR, and others.
I am not sure about your chiropractic work, but you did seem to put a few people noses out of joint.
Anyone want to buy some 2Ce’s really cheap?
Where are they at, and how much?
"In 2022 almost anyones speakers sound better than 25 year old Vandersteen technology."
And… there are many speakers that do not sound as good.
One would think that starting with more knowns would be an easier starting place, but it is amazing how many modern speakers have cabinet issues and a host of other kindergarten problems, that were known and solved 40 years ago.
The 2C are not perfect, but their flaws are strengths are pretty well known.
Not really worth my time but…….of course we are enthusiasts on the Vandy forum. Most of us seek to learn and help most of the time, but not always..because we are after all just human, do get gruff.
Lets get somebody’s back and brain back into alignment… How does it go “ physician heal thyself “.
Lets start with 2022 Magnet size…. Here its a bit helpful to have actually paid some attention in Electrical Engineering class. Wondering what’s more important? Guass in the gap or magnet size, or those mysterious Thiele small parameters ? Wondering how that jacked magnet works with a filter network w antitanking and driver resonance control features. Also wondering how those 2022 woofers work with the acoustic coupler ? A mass loaded narrow bandwidth active driver acoustic couple is a pretty rare bird. Not something a catalog engineer will come across often… How will those jacked magnet 2022 woofer blend with the all important midrange driver in a design that pays special and costly attention to time alignment?
Lets be brutally frank, you couldn’t even find the RMA form or sock replacement links and videos on the website.
You got excellent advice; Fill out RMA and send it along w damaged or suspect driver to Vandersteen for repair. Get repaired driver back, setup 2’s per the manual and evaluate sonics. If they are not your cup of tea, sell them.
You got some blunt feedback about what you paid for your 2’s, got your manliness offended round the campfire….and are now here…whining…
Audiogon ; What would you make of a pair of Vandy 2ce on Ebay for $3k and $1k shipping ? Not many valuation arguments to be won round the campfire citing that…
It was hardly WW3….
But……sure, i am a cult member…no wait, i guess it’s cults plural.
Hey bkeske.....you seem a bit touchy.....if you have a system on which you have spent 2 dollars ....you are approaching a million dollar system. If you actually read what I wrote it was complimentary to the Vandersteen brand.
Richard will talk to you for advice and help restore your speaker to new aural delights. Call him.
Richard responded to the OP’s questions on the forum.
As far as the forum members, which I am one, being intimidating, nothing could be further from the truth, but we do believe in keeping our Vandy’s original, and setting up and using as designed.
And no, I don’t believe there is any member that has a million dollar system, including Richard. Heck, not even @tomic601 😁
If your speaker is broken, send it back to Vandersteen to fix it. Even though its an older model, it will produce very musical sounds. The Vandersteen website can be intimidating....many on that site have systems that approach a million dollars. Richard will talk to you for advice and help restore your speaker to new aural delights. Call him.
My first Vandys were the 2CE Sigs. I don’t know how old they were but I found the sound absolutely gorgeous. They were the “comfort food” of the speaker world to me.
I totally get when the manufacture’s sound isn’t to one’s liking, but the way you describe them, I’m guessing they are totally f’d up somehow.
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