Upgraded my cables and they transformed my system!!!

Thanks for the info but i shouldn't try because my brain won't function normally at work after spending hours writing posts.

I got the copyright joke. 

Check out Audio Science Review forum. You satisfy the requirements to become a member there. This is not a joke. 

For fun I like to go to parking lots at shopping malls, and walk up to everyone driving a $60K SUV and tell them "stop wasting your money, you could drive a 20K SUV instead- it's the same thing" and hand them a book on the internal combustion engine from the early 70's. 

Face the facts and stop wasting money.

I suggest you read this book you don't need to be an EE but need some physics background (electricity and magnetism) i think you're good enough - Wire and Cable for Electronics by Neil Sclater. I enjoyed reading it (not just for the work).

In fact we all don't know what we don't know. That copyright thing was a joke.

You don’t what you don’t know. That’s a fact.

Copyright that. Lol

Of course, "doesn't make sense" but that's the fact.

By the way "doesn't make sense" is a copyrighted phrase

Onhwy61 I believe Kennymac , from tornado to hurrican power cord it’s a big difference, If they match his system.I both have this power cord.I admire Him for upgrading . Soon  his listening skills will even improve if He keeps listening to his system. Congratulations OP .

 

 

classicrockfan

15 posts

02-04-2024 at 03:25am
…

Don’t get wrong... I do believe good cables make a difference

There’s a night and day difference in sound quality between a $50 DAC and a $1500 DAC. what about between a $50 amazon power cable (beautiful and well built) and a $1500 super expensive cable? Nothing.

@classicrockfan that doesn’t make sense

use whatever you like and whatever sounds best to you (as long as you can afford)

You made a good point and I agree. Right I don't spend more than 50 for a power cable. Don't get wrong... I do believe good cables make a difference BUT a price tag alone does not make a cable better. There's a night and day difference in sound quality between a $50 DAC and a $1500 DAC. what about between a $50 amazon power cable (beautiful and well built) and a $1500 super expensive cable? Nothing. Then again use whatever you like to please your soul it's your money.

Once again, it’s all about the budget allocated to a given component or cable. If your budget is $50 for a power cord, don’t bother. Spend it on beer, cigars and bourbon. Stock power cord will do just fine. Same applies to the interconnects and speaker cables. If you don’t got the components with potential that can be realized with a $1500 power cord, spending that much is not wise. 
So @classicrockfan we see your point. But you fail to see ours. That is why it doesn’t make sense to you. Which is fine. Like I said earlier, use whatever you like and whatever sounds best to you

Haha you really like using this term "high current" 15A for power cables. FYI a standard 15-amp duplex receptacle outlet is the most common type of outlet used in residential homes. that's right 15A.

In cable industry we use this term "heavy duty", measured in gauge. a 12 awg (not amp) cable can be considered heavy duty.

So your budget limit is $1500 for each cable. Seriously you earned my respect.. money that matters...you seem to be a very rich person. My limit is $50 for a power cable,100 for a pair of interconnects, probably some more for speaker cables. I don't find any audible difference... perhaps because i'm not a music professor at Yale.

This hobby is extremely multifaceted and subjective.  This is understood.  And, when it comes to one putting a system together, of coarse, one puts together a  system that they find pleasing to their own ears.  However, I find it extremely comical when, after all these years of research, evidence and testimony, one still chooses to stubbornly deceive themselves into believing that upgraded, aftermarket cabling is a farce or a placebo.  These people, I find quite laughable and ludicrous in their denial, or, more likely, their neglect in experimenting with cabling for themselves.  I honestly don't believe that most of the aftermarket cable naysayers really believe that aftermarket cables don't improve sound quality.  They're just too cheap to spend the extra cash, so they settle out.  But, honestly.......I could care less.

Audio cables: Reduce the bias?

Expectation bias , if any, can work both ways.

If you don’t hear the differences and improvements , and/or you don’t think the differences are worth the $$ to you just don’t go there….EZ-PZ. Charts and graphs and the like be damned.

A frequent offering of audio pundits claiming audio listening bias (especially cables…) runs along the lines of: “ ….. Nah, it didn’t happen . You “wanted” to hear an improvement and so you did…”

I am not so cynical that I think there are a bunch of small, dedicated, and hard working audio shops keeping the doors open based on a business model of selling "snake oil" cables to foolish audio enthusiasts. I am interested though in knowing how a piece of 14 gauge cheapest crap wire from a hardware store could deliver the same performance quality as even a decent grade speaker cable.

simply put, Have you ever seen the audio expo exhibitors doing this? It would be a helluva marketing ad to preach “save money cuz we sound superior with the cheapest made in China crap cable shite available.”

Trust your own ears and just simply cull the noise, especially the written 3rd party rhetoric.

Clearly, I don’t think anyone is trying to say all audio options including cables will make a positive impression difference - that’s as outright as stupid as those saying none will.

It’s about quality and value, for the performance they offer. The educated customer will be skeptical and pick what’s best for them within their specific system and expectations. And hopefully, they have the opportunity for an extended, no-obligation demo as these things are subjective to bespoke systems.

Some people have much higher build and much higher resolution associated equipment with the capabilities to properly flesh out the sonic differences. The relationship between amp, speaker, crossovers, and the cable that ties it all together is not necessarily a simple one distilled down to “just make it a (insert qualifiers) test”

Just like how some may want to hear a positive change, others already have their minds made up that cables make no difference. And those people usually haven’t arrived at that conclusion after a thorough and careful comparisons that incorporate key factors below.I’ve test driven (too) many different cables over the years , and a couple of core tenets present themselves.

TAKEAWAY

There are no one-size-fits-all rules here …it’s a bespoke hands-on audition experience project. Resist all the “ expensive is always better “ expectations in certain marketing hyperbole…. AND SIMILARLY…. ignore and tune out the polar opposite “cables don’t matter and I’m fine with a race to the bottom for cheap as I can find it “ noise and mantra .

(1) Price-point strata in isolation is no prediction, much less assurance , of cable build improvements…. nor any assurance of its audio performance improvement…. Full stop.

(2) They DO sound different and their audio performance appeal - or not - are entirely system dependent . First and foremost, thei cables differences and audio improvements are distinct and unambiguous when you pair them up with advanced transparencies and resolutions in high-end systems. BUT ….Conversely …. Minimal to meh? in comparatively more modest and less revealing / budget systems. They are key in my $50K system , but nominal to proportionally less in my other three 2-channel systems ranging from $1200 to $6K

(3) There is another wild card - Two identical systems can - and frequently will - sound very different in two different listening arena because of the bespoke room acoustics warts and compromises that are present in each. This too impacts any and all “blind” listening tests and any related “bias”.

(4) Some people have better hearing than others. Aging does not help.

choose wisely.

“There are three sides to every story: my side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently.”

— Robert Evans

This thread illustrates one thing........ that we all have biases and hubris when it comes to sound.  It's what keeps this site alive.

Slight correction @larryh111 . It keeps the hobby alive

Score another point for the placebo effect. But hey, it's your money. Whatever works.

Like saying the above worked for you!

Score another point for the placebo effect. But hey, it's your money. Whatever works.

akgwhiz,

I sent you a DM

@vthokie83 any particular designs you'll be making you can share?   Built my own RCA and speaker cables so im curious what length others go to.

...afterthought.  My Luminous Audio Synchestra interconnects are terminated with Bullet Plugs from Eichmann Technology, Australia. 

The Cardas Clear Sky loudspeaker cables were returned to Cardas...upgraded to bi-wired at the loudspeaker terminals.  In addition, all 12 terminations were further upgraded to compression-die-forging by Cardas.  Cardas Clear High Speed USB cable for the DAC. 

My time evaluating cables taught me the value of great terminations. 

Onwards! Pin

Happy your happy, kennymacc...

Cable topic always engenders controversy...maybe the purpose for the posts?  My history experimenting with audio cable began in 1980 by doubling up lamp cord from my Electrocompaniet Ampliwire II amp to my Snell loudspeakers.  Yep, deeper, tighter bass and the rest of it.  Soon came Transparent Audio's $350 interconnect MIT cable replacing Vampire wire between the preamp and the amp...a high risk jaw dropping event! (one review by HP)

In the late 90's, nearby Final Note was a dealer for Audio Matiere, amazing French tube gear, Audible Illusions, and later MSB and other lesser-known brands.  Over time, I befriended Rick Taylor and we spent long hours evaluating gear plus his own cable designs, which competed with big boy cables of the day.  Rick also went deep in modifying gear and was highly skilled in the application of Marigo V.T.S. Tuning Dots.  Today, addressing interior resonances inside high end components has become commonplace.  Rick wrote this well over 20 years ago:  The Audiophile Voice | MARIGO AUDIO LAB

It's apparent that many divisions linger over cables.  My recent thinking has been around preferred FLAVORS of sound per individual listener.  Example, I'm a hopeless conehead, having long experienced some of the best varieties of loudspeakers designs, short of MBL and a few other radical approaches.  My simplified two channel system in a dedicated small room includes tube power, DIY mains and a curated 12" direct-servo sub.  Exacting placement, DSP, room tuning, and the more recent BACCH plug-in crosstalk cancellation has taken the system to unimaginable heights.  

Now more to the point.  Flavors.  Thurston, a passionate music lover and  audiophile friend for the last dozen years, sadly (for me,) has moved back to his home in Virginia.  He was like having a 1980's box-store start up close by.  By having well-heeled, gear changing friends back home, Thurston was able to experiment with dozens of high-end brands, electronics, speakers, turntables, dacs and, yes, various cable companies during the time of our close friendship.  He had three systems going...an HT surround in varieties of combinations.  A nearfield basement system sporting masonry, a wood stove and digital sources and monitors of all designs.  Finally, his huge primary space, very very different from my small, dedicated studio. 

His cable inventory was not for the shy and retiring, though it did NOT include the truly crazy money stuff, but some of their little brothers.  As it played out, he and I discovered we shared many similar audio experiences and many of the same likes of flavors.  Recently, I have elected a Cardas loom with a couple of exceptions, Luminous from my pro dac to my sub and amplifier.  My theory is that, like Thurston, George Cardas and I ALSO share similar flavors in sound.  One can take this theory much, much further in attempting to explain how the same source of music can be fully appreciated in such differing systems.  I truly believe there are many paths, no right - wrongs.  I've never attended an audio show, yet, having over 200 rooms, sort of validates my theory around so many discerning flavors leading to great sound.  

Finally, for the newbie.  I wholeheartedly agree with starting out with Belden or Blue Jeans or other reputable, well-built designed cable.  Chosen carefully, these will yield a high percentage of the costly stuff, allowing mid-fi or better to perform very well.  Do seek out, maybe befriend, other music lovers.  You will find generous and helpful people for the most part, willing to share.  Many of us have some favorite wire in our "arsenal" that can be borrowed and sometimes purchased. 

Okay, that's about it.  Those curious can find a variety of my posts touching on associated topics.  For the passionate, there is much to learn, experiment and enjoy in persuit of great sound.  Mentors are invaluable.  Thanks for the read.       More Peace,  Pin             (bold print for old eyes) 

chrisr:  Ok buddy, LOL!!!.

You might get an even GREATER sound upgrade by moving slightly your speakers, playing with toe-in angles.  for FREE.

Also, just to make sure that it was worth spending all that money on cables, just get some good canare or mogami affordable cables to compare them to.

Ace17, agree with you fully.  Thank you for your post.

+1 @rodman99999 well said. And you sound much better than rodman99. 

Congrats and no surprise; I have gradually been upgrading to the Cerious Tech MatrixV2 but primarily to his Lumniscate line of power cords and interconnects as well as speaker cables and my system sounds EASILY 25 % better today than it sounded 6 months ago. For anyone not familiar with Cerious Tech you can check out his newly designed website, No on eon earth is making cables like Cerious at ANY price. Just go Cerioustech.com

This thread illustrates one thing........ that we all have biases and hubris when it comes to sound.  It's what keeps this site alive.

OP:

     KUDOS on actually stepping out, trying new cables and enjoying the rewards.

     What would it take for a Naysayer Doctrine adherent to convince you, that what you're experiencing is a result of defective hearing, some deceptive bias, or- your inadequate mental faculties?

                                          As I've mentioned in the past:

not angry.

simply because we don need to support any manufacturers who sell over-priced products!

I don't know who's more fortunate, those who can hear a difference or those who can't...

Or perhaps THEY ARE JUST ANGRY, because they spent money on something in the past and didn't notice any difference? and now are trying their best to put all cable manufacturers out of business? 

@ace17 Good post. It has to be opinions, because we can't prove it. Even if we could prove it why would we bother just to satisfy someone else? But the deniers can't prove it doesn't make any difference either. They try by stating something like "copper is copper, the only difference is the gauge" but that is not a complete argument, therefore it means nothing, and we know better. 

If audio forums had no opinions they would not exist. 

I don't know if it like reverse confirmation bias, but I am much more likely to get buyer's remorse than expectation bias, and therefore (maybe) do not hear improvements as easily as others may. And not just with audio, but everything in life. It is not very often I add a new component or make an adjustment and say "oh wow, that is so much better" It is when I go backwards is when I notice the difference most- I listen for a while with a new product (after break-in) and think not much of a difference, but when removed or going back to the original setting or setup is when I say "oh wow, that is worse". Perhaps many do their evaluations similarly. 

Perhaps with an interest in psychology you have some curiousity in this as well: I still wonder why they (the deniers) are here, like what is the point of going to threads on audio forums, search for cable reviews/experiences, and then question someones findings? Do they just like to argue? Enjoy conflict? Or are they trying to "save us"? I don't think they really care about our financial situation. 

everybody is talking about unnecessarily expensive cables without scientific data/proof.

all audio components are made of signal transfer lines (also kind of cables) internally.

so, why not changing/upgrading the internal cables?

DO NOT WASTE ANY $ FOR THEM!

Quality cables are important but keep in mind I think they all colour the sound and yeah you may notice a change but is the change for the better.

I find audio quest extremely annoying with all their cherry Banana product names. I do have their HDMI cables which are supposedly very good. All the other stuff is just so damn confusing and complicated. 

Like the previous poster, I just switched from Cardas: Parsec to Clear [digital SPDIF].  And I upgraded my analog interconnects to Cardas Clear [RCA] as well. So, my magical bias tells me that I have better stereo imaging, more detail, and more [and tighter] bass.  I even found improvements, especially in the bass, from changing my $3 Lowe's wall outlet to the Powerport from PS Audio...

As discussed almost ad infinitum on this site, most of what we post here is our opinion...or, I would say, our opinions about our perceptions.  Either we actually do hear a difference when switching out equipment, or we think we do ~ this seems to be the crux of the controversy.  But I started out with what I might term "reverse confirmation bias":  I REALLY hoped that I would not hear audible improvements when upgrading cables. Who really wants to spend the money?  I was oh-so-careful with the packaging, because in the back of my mind was "I'm going to return this for a refund when I don't hear a difference".  But I couldn't lie to myself...whether it was the CD player upgrade which cost 4x what my current one had [my first foray into sonic upgrades] or my Synergistic research interconnects [in a different system than the aforementioned Cardas cables], I have often, but not always, found that spending more money meant sonic improvements..or, occasionally, a move in the wrong direction...sometimes a cable or component just doesn't work well in the system you plug it into...or, it's overpriced junk~ yes, it happens.

So, you psychology majors [I have a psych degree, so don't bother me with the ignorance argument], I'm glad that you're happy with your zip wire and red/white interconnects!  But stop with the supercilious allegations, and let us hear what we hear...or, as you believe, what we think we hear. Save your money, enjoy your systems, and leave the rest of us alone.

@maholl50 if you need another set: Arcadia

I just switched from Cardas iridium RCA interconnects to Zafino Arcadia OCC XLR from an Eversol DMP-6 to Musical Fidelity 6si > Harbeth 30.2XD and was immediately blown away by the improvement in overall sound quality. I was hoping the XLR connection would be better but I’m more than happy with these interconnects.

English 101, when anyone makes a comment regarding any matter on this site, it is “their opinion.” You do not have to state what is naturally implied when making a comment or expressing your opinion. Personally, I have not interpreted any comments as being “absolute fact.” Being condescending or rude is one thing. Expressing your opinion in a non judgmental manner should be expected on a forum like Agon. 

@firstonetallguy 

+1

This is what the OP stated:

With the new cables in place, the sound quality of my system, which sounded simply outstanding before the upgrades, has been improved dramatically by leaps and bounds, and my new interconnects are not even close to being fully broken-in yet!!!

So the system sounded outstanding before, but is now transformed and dramatically improved by leaps and bounds!!!  I understand that you like your new cables, but your hyperbolic descriptions make me question your credibility.

@cundare2    
+1

confirmation bias
measurements matter most
ears can be misled
hearing can be fooled
its just 1s and 0s

The list goes on and on.  I fail to understand why or how so many strangers to the OP can reign down such negative comments when they have no experience with the writer’s judgment.  The comments are never “in my opinion” or “I think, feel that etc.”.  It is always stated as absolute fact and, sometimes stated or implied, if you disagree for any reason you are a moron, tone deaf, or just plain stupid.
My blood boils.

BTW, I have gone the interconnect and power cable route. All were chosen after a lot of research.  None have been over $500. Truthfully, I heard noticeable and positive results for every upgrade. 

IMHO

I’m definitely not an expert but most audiophiles may agree, the quality of your cables should match your system. In chocaholic’s case, the Rocket 88 speaker cables paired with the Revels and lower cost interconnects may match his system and sound amazing to his ears. His system is comprised of a BS node, Revel speakers etc. In his case, it wouldn’t make sense to drop 2K on speaker cables or purchase an expensive interconnect for a BS node. 

I guess then I should be looking to upgrade my 1970s interconnects that came with my Sony tape desks!.  

@cundare2 - I am with you on this.  If you like the way your system sounds, then that is the simple answer.

So if you system, which sounded simply outstanding before the upgrades, am I to question your hearing?  LOL

For others who believe that you have been in the hobby for a long time, I am not exactly sure what that actually means?  You can hear and know what different transformers can do to the sound?  You have learned what for example?  Just sayin' also.

Has anyone heard heard a 101D DHT designed product? If not, then your years of experience is really limited IMO.  Have you heard products with thirty pound power supplies?  Do you know how cables are made and why they sound different from the design and materials?  Speaker placement knowledge?  How to lower the noise in a system without a power conditioner?  Again, I don't want to spoil the fun or say anything to upset anyone, but IMO you really need to dig a little deeper.

@kennymacc - congrats = all that matters is that you love the way you system sounds.  Enjoy the music!

Happy Listening.    

@kennymacc  congratulations on the better sound. Trying the hurricane is on my short list. 😎

Most of us are looking to optimize our systems and many end up looking to cables as a way to accomplish this. They matter. But it is an imprecise endeavor with few guideposts. The upgrades can be expensive but there may be gold at the end of the rainbow. 

@thecarpathian Thank you sir. It seems some find things for which they themselves may be guilty ; - )

@mclinnguy Long ago I learned what “assume” actually does. So I try to avoid that. 
 

@chocaholic: "I’m smart" is not a rebuttal. I do appreciate your thoughtful postscript, but keep in mind that your comments, despite your intent, sure do come across as condescending with a heaping helping of hubris. 

@cundare2 ,

I don't see a hint of condescension or hubris in what @chocaholic stated.

@chocaholic

How many have stepped up and bought a stretch piece of equipment and were “blown away”…only to flip it months later?

True, but isn’t it also true that Mcintosh owners notoriously upgrade (or flip) their equipment more than anyone?

I assume you are using the stock power cord on that new MA352? 

Good on ya, and congrats! I’ve been there...cables matter IMO, and price isn’t a great predictor of synergy with any given system.

As far as the accusations of confirmation bias...long term listening will confirm or disprove that in the end, so no worries.  Enjoy!

Congrats! I'm not sure that you're NOT a "well heeled" audiophile though. I lost track but it looks like you spent$ 6-$7500 on 4 or 5 cables- pretty good money in anyone's book!

Kenny acc I was inquiring what are your speaker cables , and Ethernet digital cables to see if it something I have heard  in our audio club.

kennymacc

Welcome! to the Club. Now, go enjoy those upgraded Cables!

Happy Listening!