Richard Vandersteen comment on the upcoming preamp
https://forum.vandersteen.com/topic/979-new-vandersteen-preamp/#comment-8819
Tube preamp options
My system from the preamp on consists of a rouge rp-7, rogue m180 monoblocks, and vandersteen quatro wood speakers. My main source is a brinkmann Bardo through a Rogers PA-2 phono pre. It all sounds great. But there's that itch, you know? I get tremendous soundstage but not that much depth. Clarity is great, mids are nice, bass is excellent. But it doesn't quite have that in the room sound that I'm looking for. The RP7 sounded too solid state and analytical for me out of the box with the stock JJ tubes so I've done extensive rolling. Been through all sorts of NOS tubes and landed on amperex as they seem to have the best balance of warmth and clarity. My thought is, maybe I can find a pre that has those attributes out of the gate without all the rolling. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to tailor the sound with trying different tubes but I feel like maybe there's a brand out there who's house sound I like better. I haven't listened to anything more yet but brands that are on the list to check out are Backert labs, maybe a used ARC Ref 6, VTL, VAC. There are a million little boutique brands tho and I'm asking what people have heard in the 10k price range, new or used, that might be a good fit for me and why.
Thanks!
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At one point two houses back, I pulled them out into the room about that amount (42”). And SWMBO said, “The sound is coming from the outside of the wall. I don’t even hear the speakers… I have never heard anything like that.”
At some point one must stop. |
I want to thank everyone for l the input. This was quite a lively thread. As I previously mentioned I ended up moving the speakers as far as I could out into the room. This got the front baffle about 42 inches from the front wall. I toed them in a little just to sharpen focus. I did get some improvement in depth but marginal really and I can't move the speakers ang more. The couple of members that mentioned the Don Sachs stuff got me very intrigued. As I mentioned I found an older model 2 preamp of his online and bought it. Holy crap the thing is amazing. The greatest amount of clarity and detail but without sounding analytical. I've never heard anything like it. I think it has a lot to do with simplicity of design and with the 6SN7 tubes. It did give me additional depth of stage and honestly, just took me away to some other place. I'm going to stay on his list for a new one with dual volume controls and I'm not sure if I'm going to sell this one when I get the new one. |
@rmdmoore I think i just heard a collective "Lucky Man" gasp out of the participants here. Have fun! |
She's funny. She loves having the giant system with the turntable in that room but I think partly cause it looks cool. But it's gotta look cool with all the other stuff in that room. Worry not though, she is supportive of an outbuilding with a dedicated listening room. She still wants a system 8n the library though so I get to buy more stuff, lol |
@rmdmoore Ahhhh, WAF enters the picture--i must admit to forgetting about that as my room is a dedicated music room. But maybe you could bring her in on the experiment just to know whether it's the distance from the front wall that causing the lack of depth, rather than a preamp--but if you find that depth gets better as you move into the room at least you have the answer and won't chase a rabbit. Then you can start persuading her you need an addition to the house😀 |
My room is about 18 feet deep but I can't feasibly move the speakers further into the room than I just did. My wife is very understanding and tolerant but the room is not a dedicated listening space and I'd have to move all the furniture in that room to get them out further which she is not so ok with. Good point. I need to sit a take a good listen, maybe tonight. Since the speakers are so far apart still, I gave them a bit of toe in as I thought that might help with focus and depth |
@rmdmoore What are your room dimensions from front to back ? Mine is 16' and the front of my speakers (not Vandys but i don't think that's relevant) are 72" from the front wall. I realize you had some issues moving yours with those granite bases but maybe just take the speakers off the bases so you can move them easily with gliders or not and you should get a sense of whether there is improvement or not. I still think @soix is on the right track but even if not, as he said, it's free! |
If it was me, I wouldn’t bother recalibrating the subs when moving the Quatros further into the room unless you have to. When you move the speakers another foot or two into the room you’ll know immediately if it’s an improvement or not, and if anything the subs will just enhance further that result. I wouldn’t overthink or over complicate it. Just do it and see what happens. I think you’ll be very pleased with the result. And, oh yeah, it’s free! |
@soix I pulled my speakers out about Another foot. Now about 42 inches from the front wall. I haven't had a chance to recalibrate the subwoofers in them yet but will do it this week. My speakers are on 3" blocks of granite on a thick pile carpet. I'm a fan of Herbie's but unfortunately those gliders aren't going to help me much when it comes to moving them. I'll keep everyone posted
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FWIW, when I listened to the Vandersteen 3a at Johnny R’s shop they were at least 6’ and maybe more from the front of the speakers to the back wall. A product that may not only help in moving your speakers but also may improve sound are these gliders from Herbies… https://herbiesaudiolab.com/products/threaded-stud-glider If you haven’t already, try pulling your speakers further out into the room — it’s free and may give you just what you’re looking for. |
@soix maybe on to something with your speaker distance from front wall--the further from the wall i brought my speakers the more depth was achieved but i'm listening nearfield now and also depends on how big your room is. like @bgross i run an Aesthetix Calypso Signature and have never felt the need to roll tubes (thankfully , although i chase other rabbits) and i haven't heard anything better although i'm not so sure it's the preamp that creates depth--more speaker, speaker placement and room IMO. Good luck if you scratch that itch. |
@sbank, Spencer, talk to Andy, from their web site the XLR input and output are "Fully Balanced". I am not saying I am a techie nor have I opened the units up and gone over them in detail but based on my conversation with Andy and from their web site they claim that the XLR inputs (two on the Rhythm) and outputs are indeed fully balanced. With that I will leave the back and forth dialog on this topic, I do not want to thread cap on this issue. I know you know Andy so ask him and let us all know what you found out because I could be wrong and really want to know the full story. Still enjoying Texas, we miss you back here in the Philadelphia/Delaware area. |
There was a seller who had the last generation of Don Sachs preamp on the other classified site. It was a good price so I pulled the trigger. Seller has the newer one also and said the sound wasn't markedly different so I figured this is a small investment and we'll see if I like it. If I do I'll likely have him build me a new one and sell the old one. Too many great comments to not try it out. |
@axo0oxa I didn't say the Backert preamps don't have XLR inputs or outputs. I said that the circuit isn't fully balanced. That's not the same thing. Lots of manufacturers add xlrs for convenience and compatability, but fully balanced circuitry adds plenty to the cost and requires changes to the design. The Backert Labs preamps are great products, I am not knocking them at all. But for buyers who value true balanced, it's a distinction worth noting. Cheers, Spencer |
Hello, I had an ARC 5se, paired with an ARC Ref 75se driving Kharma CRM 3.2fe speakers. Its power supply blew up, and I had other repair problems with it. And it sounded so bright, especially with classical music. I replaced it with an RP-7. Love the sound--warm, lush, dynamic. The combo's timbre is so right. And the RP-7 works right. |
@sbank I believe you stated that the Backert Labs preamplifiers are not fully balanced, this is not true, they are fully balanced where there is an XLR connection, both output and input. The Rhythm has two XLR fully balanced inputs while the Rhumba and Rhumba Extreme only have one fully balanced input. All units have one fully balanced XLR output. Concerning the OPs question on creating depth I believe one should begin by looking at the room acoutstic / layout and the positioning of the speakers. 30 inches out into the room might not be far enough, particularly if measured from the front of the speaker and if the components are set between the speakers. It is not apparent to me from the post how the room is laid out nor the speaker positioning within the room. Furniture can easily get in the way of creating the perfect sound stage. I have two Backert preamplifiers, Rhythm and Rhumba Extreme and they both help create a wonderful sound stage which includes wonderful depth, however my speakers are 54 inches, measured to the front baffle to the room's front wall. My rack, which is between, is extremely low. The top of the preamplifier is no more than 26 inches above the floor measured to its top. I also have no furniture other than a sofa with a small coffee table in front of the sofa so the speakers really float freely in the room. Prior to moving onto new preamplifiers in hopes of developing more depth with in your sound stage I would play with the room and speaker position. Certainly the first thing I would do is pull the speakers further into the room and make sure nothing will interfere with the sound as it leaves the speakers and heads toward your listening position, nothing around them to block the creation of the sound stage. Sound absorbing panels placed at the first reflection points and if your room is on the smaller size some bass traps will greatly enhance your sound stage. Another area to explore is speakers. Certain speaker designs are much easier to create pin point instrument placement within a sound stage. You should be able to create the illusion of musicians being placed beyond the front wall, which is what I believe you are after. Good luck. |
I recently bought a new Bel Canto SEP2(upgraded to SEP1 parts) built by Ace Tomato Audio. It’s a strange arrangement in which Ace builds these older Bel Canto models under license from BC. They are built of all new/unused parts w/NOS tubes and Hovland caps. Ace provides exceptional services along with test measurements of the individual unit. What prompted me to take a gamble on this pre was my previous experience with Bel Canto’s PRe5 solid-state preamp. Anyhow, the SEP2/SEP1 is without question the best tube preamp I have owned, and I’ve yet to even experiment with tube rolling. It far exceeds the sound I was getting from Van Alstine Fet Valve, the Schiit Freya+ (with countless tube makes), and the Allnic L-1500. It has the dynamics and bass extension of the Allnic, the transparency of the Freya, and the lucid warm midrange of the Fet Valve. It is the only tube preamp I’ve yet heard that contends for permanent residence in my system when compared to ultra transparent SS units like the Benchmark LA4 or Topping Pre90. FWIW, all the Rogue gear I’ve tried has been mediocre or had one or more glaring weaknesses. Actually, the best Rogue product I’ve tried was the Cronus Magnum II, despite its high noise output. I don’t really know of any seasoned audiophiles who have stuck with the brand over the long haul, unlike with Cary, Jadis, AN, ARC or VTL.
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@harrylavo I've read a bit about audible illusions but why would I have to buy them used? Do are they no longer in production? |
If that "golden tube glow" is what you are after, the Conrad Johnson tube amps from the '90's are probably your most reliable source. Similar "softer" tube preamps (and very dimensional) are the Audible Illusions Modulus 3a and 3b preamps (with optional phono stage).. These of course you'd have to buy used, but if you can get one in good shape and maintained (used, not stored, or perhaps carefully refreshed) they will give you what you want. |
There is an American brand called Audible Illusions their pre amp is the best pre amp i ever listened after concert fidelity pre amp. http://www.audibleillusions.com/products/l3-line-stage-preamplifier/ |
[Please forgive my poor English] Without hesitation: Aries Cerat Incito tube preamplifier (approx. $10K).
It was the more impressive upgrade my system had. It is also the most stable and reliable hifi component I have ever had. I wish I had discover that extremely talented manufacturer sooner. Built in Cyrpus by an aeronautic engineer who worked on Dassault systems.
Here a picture of the 'Incito S' version (separate PS). An 'Incito' (basic) version also exists: embedded PS; it is the 'basic' version that I own (approx. $K10-11)
If necessary, plan a trip to discover it. It will save you years in your audiophile quest, I promise. I wish I had discovered it sooner. |
This is an interesting result. Usually it’s the other way around. Listeners find increased presence, tactility and space when going active preamplifier. Regardless, your change works for you and that’s all that matters in the end. It’s all so listener and audio system depended.Congratulations on your success. Charles
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@upnorthsound sgreed canary is almost never talked about here or for that matter in North America. This is likely one of the very best made in the world. I have the ca 801which is one model down I have head many if these early model canary preamplifier s they are all superb each one is a definite setup from the one lower.
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I have a pair of Rogue M120’s with a pair of Totem Forests. I have been using a Rogue Athena preamp and had some noise issues. So, I took a chance on the Magnum 99 and was quite impressed . I wouldn’t have thought that the less expensive preamp would give me what I was looking for. Wide and deep soundstage with plenty of air. This was just using Ruby 6550 tubes. Perhaps it is synergy? I dont know, but I can tell you I’m very satisfied (at the moment) with the sound I’m getting. I can’t say enough about the simplicity and sound of the 99. BTW, the noise issues I was experiencing were in house. |
After ten years of delight in a majestic point to point wired, outboard dual mono p/s Croft preamplifier I tried a TVC. I was shocked by the in room presence of music and the space of recordings. If that's what you're after, try a different principle of design / operation; no AC power rushing through, no noisy --beautiful !-- valves, no capacitors, resistors or unnecessary wiring looms to sap your music of energy. My unit is from Audion and I warmly recommend it. Their website explains. There are numerous other manufacturers too. |
I can absolutely recommend the Don Sachs line preamp (6SN7 based). I purchased one just to give it a try and ended up selling my ARC-Ref-5SE and pocketing about $10k in the process. It's that good... in my system, your milage may vary. Innuous_Zen--> Holo_May_KTE_DAC--> Don_Sachs_Pre--> Coincident_Frankenstein_MK-III_300B_Monoblocks--> BD_Design_Oris_Horns |
I am currently using a Canary Audio C630 tube preamp. Had a Decware Torii Junior amp, wanted a little more gain. Tried the RP-7, far less output. Turns out the C630 is the base of the sound I have. Simply delicious! Like a gourmet meal. Upped power output by selling Decware and getting a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP. The C630 is Canary Audio's entry level preamp, would be interesting to see what stepping up in their line would provide. I never see any mention of them on this forum, thought I'd throw in my 2 cents... |
OP - Johnny R is a great dude and has setup many Quattro in many rooms. If you go down the path of pulling them out, which is a worthy experiment, make sure you rerun Vandertones AND especially revisit the Q setting to get back some or all of the slam if you feel it’s lacking. Get in touch IF i can help in any way. i do a lot of FREE Vandy setup work because it keeps me sharp… well, maybe sharper… BTW my brother runs a Cadenza Black into Vandy thru an ARC / Threshold chain with superb image depth. Good on ya to expect better… you will get there… Jim |
Yes I bought the ultimate upgrade with Kimber cable. I also worked with Brent Jesse and upgraded to NOS tubes. One on the reasons I went with the Cary is I am a big supporter of tube regulated power supplies. I am currently using a metal base GZ34. I had a few of these from my Modwright days. The GZ 34 had the most significant improvement to SQ I've experienced with most equipment changes. |
@testrun did you get the ultimate upgrade package? |
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224595776364 Balanced to unbalanced and unbalanced to balanced.....much better than the cable.....recommended by Leo at Orchard Audio. Works Great. I have 2. |
Cartridges are balanced sources; when you run them single-ended but you wind up with that weird ground wire no other single-ended source seems to need. The advantage of running balanced is lower noise presented to the phono section at its input and less 'sound' (artifact) from the tonearm cable itself- balanced operation is more neutral. You can run an RCA into a balanced preamp, but in the case of a turntable why do it? -unless your tonearm has continuous wire from the cartridge to the output connectors. Usually its a simple matter of just changing out the tonearm interconnect cable.
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