I can understand that being a problem if your floor is not solid like concrete. Thanks for sharing, I'd like to see some opinions or suggestions from others.
Townshend Pods under TT Don’t Do
Greetings,
well with all the talk about how great the Townshend Pods are I decided to try a set of Pods under my TT. I found out the hard way, Don’t do this. I have a good TT on a good rack and it sounds very good. With the Pods I had to sneak up on my TT to change the VTA or to que it up. It would start shaking with the lightest of touch. I bought the correct Pods for the weight of my TT. The Pods didn’t harm the sound but didn’t improve the sound either. I will use the Pods under one of my pre amps for now. I can maybe say they might work under equipment but don’t suggest you use them under a TT.
‘I was very disappointed in the results. Maybe your results will be different.
‘Respectfully
Joe
well with all the talk about how great the Townshend Pods are I decided to try a set of Pods under my TT. I found out the hard way, Don’t do this. I have a good TT on a good rack and it sounds very good. With the Pods I had to sneak up on my TT to change the VTA or to que it up. It would start shaking with the lightest of touch. I bought the correct Pods for the weight of my TT. The Pods didn’t harm the sound but didn’t improve the sound either. I will use the Pods under one of my pre amps for now. I can maybe say they might work under equipment but don’t suggest you use them under a TT.
‘I was very disappointed in the results. Maybe your results will be different.
‘Respectfully
Joe
43 responses Add your response
I always felt if you wanted a Turntable with suspension... Buy a properly suspended one from the get go. Hanging vertically from the springs not floating around in all directions. Nothing wrong with springs...they just usually work much better as a first thought included in the design and reasoning of the Turntable and the end users needs. Not an after thought from an over looked end users needs. My Orbe SE is one of a few good examples of better use of springs. Many a non suspended table properly built AND placed with no need for springs under them either. I’ve tried them out of curiosity on other non suspended tables I own. An inexpensive sandbox for far less dollars gives better results Imho... YM (or bias ) MV |
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I have three TT, SOTA Sapphire with engineered in suspended from springs subchassis. Brinkmann Bardo on an HRS ( Harmonic Resolution Systems ) base that includes many technologies including springs.. And even a vintage B and O TX with internal springs lauded by Lederman of Soundsmith fame… Enjoy the journey and the music ! Jim |
My main table is a non suspension type, ClearAudio Master Solution. I really like having a non suspension TT. My second TT does have a suspension, Oracle Delphi. I have had the Delphi for 30 years plus. I’m very accustom to TT with springs. The CA turntable is the first TT I have owned without a suspension. I’m 72 years young and I’m very good at setting up any TT. I really like my CA table and it was my mistake to put springs under it. Joe |
The ClearAudio Master Solution uses three sharp spikes for the turntable with a separate motor pod. This is similar to my old Teres and my current Origin Live Sovereign, both of which are similar no-suspension designs and both of which have been used with Pods with excellent results. They were of course used under a shelf and not directly under the table. The Clearaudio is 24kg, roughly 50 lbs. What shelf were you using it on? How heavy is the shelf? And how many Pods and what color/load? The Teres turntable was also used on Nobsound springs for quite some time before upgrading to Pods. Never with any of these were they the least bit touchy. The only other person I know to have had a problem is willgolf, and his was due to a mixup between pounds and kilograms. Once they got that right everything was fine. Really curious to try and understand what is going on here. |
I’ve seen what you’re talking about but the issue was the wrong springs and they weren’t loaded correctly. If you’re touching the table and it shakes you have a dampening issue. There is no shock absorber or accumulator. A spring will bounce, that is what they do. The correct pod and being adjusted correctly, won’t. (I should say shouldn’t) something is wrong. After building as many heavy plinths for TT as I’ve built you got a GUMMY PUFFER issue..:-) (Spring dampeners). Thorens will wobble all over when they go bad.. Gummy Puffers.. The 30 to 200 lb plinths I build for Thoren, Russco, Garrard, Sparta, Fairchild, EMT, Roberts. Transcription and Broadcast TTs. Have springs and not the least bit touchy.. I may anchor the TT to the plinth but the plinth gets springs and dampeners or the mechanical noise would go through the roof. It’s just TT 101.. Air or a mag lift platter is a step up for vertical isolation, but you still have a horizonal issue because the bushing and spindle still touch.. A standard 3.5" concrete slab is like a trampoline.. You really want dampening and decoupling there if it’s on a soil bed.. A couple million pound Rock face would be a good starting place if you want solid.. There is no such thing as solid.. A life time of anchoring STUFF.. It just moves.. Regards |
Used a Teakwood shelf, 1.5” thick, 23”x17”, butcher block style, approx weight 14 lbs., it looked beautiful. I used 4 pods. C size springs. Total weight est. 66 to 70 lbs. Townshend agreed with the C size springs. I moved the Pods around to get the best balance. I listened to music for 7 days with the pods. I gave it time to settle in. Balance was perfectly set. The TT sounded fine with the Pods. It just didn’t like to be touched ever so softly. I didn’t bang into it or try to make it jump. I know better than banging on a TT. I’m using a Graham Phantom Elite tone arm , 9”. Had arm for the last 6 months. Bought new in 2021, Cartridge is a Benz LPS. TT is set up to the max. I take great pride in setting up TT’s. My Oracle Delphi with a ET2 arm used to be hard to set up perfectly. Learned a lot from that TT. As I said earlier, I’ll used the Pods under my phono amp very soon, it weighs 50 lbs. I did buy some Nobsound springs first but I thought my TT deserved better and that’s why I purchased the Townshend ‘Respectfully Joe |
My slate plinth (60-70 pounds) is on 3 Nobsound springs with the springs compressed to about 60% with left, right, rear—5,3,7 springs in each cup. It sounds a lot better than when it was on cones. Concrete floor with no issues. I’ve had to be careful not to knock the table or lean on it when cueing. Got used to it now with no problems. |
Concrete ain’t what it used to be. The building where B2 wings were assembled was adjacent to a Tidal influenced brackish river… Slabs under the major jigs 3’ thick. Had to be careful to check the tide chart before drilling the front spar…. Of course, we were not using tape measures…Leica laser trackers for the Luddites. Big stuff moves… Thats why for small stuff Minus K exists, HRS, Symposium Sounds like Symposium rack is doing it’s job. |
Tomic601 I didn’t know Brooks Brendan. Not sure if I read about him and his mods.. my Oracle is basically untouched. I rebuilt the Oracle every couple years. I don’t have the dexterity that I used to have so it takes me longer. Last rebuild took me about 8 hours. Now the Oracle with the ET2 is fully functional and totally balanced. Can be a pain to setup, there are 6 different points that must be leveled. And yes I really like the symposium rack, 4 shelves. And not a bad price in today’s world. Looks good also. system sounds good so I’m happy. joe |
I have a plinth coming back from the finishers next week, with the TT mounted will be 150-160lbs, and I’ve got some pods waiting to install as footers. I have a suspended wood floor, will see how it goes. Def too heavy for a floating shelf, def trying to avoid footfalls, and def not really trying to spend the price of a Minus K. |
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If you look at how the Minus K works, the chassis of the device itself is quite massive (I have the big bench top version). There are these vertical upside down pendulums that are holding the inner suspension in place but allow it to sway and the spring pushes the suspension plate from the bottom. It’s a pretty ingenious design, but is costly and has its detractors who prefer other methods. I guess my point is that it is not simply a set of springs. A used Vibraplane is always a sort of cheap possibility (a fresh air compressor from Silentaire will set you back under 1k US new, maybe even less if refurbished with warranty). My biggest concern (which @Syntax said was a non-issue) was that the Vibraplane would require me to constantly readjust my Airline linear arm when the platform rebalanced itself on the automatic/compressor models. There are, I believe, models that allow you to manually pump the air bladders as well. After some discussion, I found that the Herzan wasn’t really meant to address footfalls and required a pretty solid foundation to start. Barry Diament (sp?) was a big advocate of the bicycle tire inner tube in a homemade plinth approach-- never tried it. |
Yeah well I figured I'd try it and fail. When planning the plinth I didn't have the footfalls, then had to move house and now I do. I can definitely attest to DJ turntables "waterbed" floating in properly built NYC clubs and that really helping with vibration control. Maybe the heavy mass will be enough anyway, I've no shortage of that. |
Max Townshend's original Seismic product (the Seismic Sink) was an inner tube (or two, or three, depending on load rating) between two metal plates. For years I used them, only replacing most of them when Max introduced the Seismic Pod. I had tried the Mod Squad Tiptoe in the 80's, and was amused that there were people who considered it (and it's imitations) an isolation device, rather than a coupler, which it of course is. As are spikes. The first time I heard of the idea of inner tube isolation was in the Frank Van Alstine newsletter, published in the mid-80's on. He suggested the inner tube be placed between two cement paving stones, or their equivalent. The Seismic Sink used damped steel plates, the top plate folded over to hide the inner tube. Bright Star made a similar product, using painted MDF in place of the Sink's steel. A single inner tube doesn't take into consideration the mass distribution of a component (for instance the transformer side of a power amp), so can be somewhat unstable. The Seismic Pod may be used in combinations of different load ratings, to balance an uneven mass load. Very flexible. |
The biggest inner tube I ever used, the outside diameter was about 5 feet. Four or five of us laid on it and went down the Paradise Run at Mt Rainier like some kind of hovercraft. All of us beautifully isolated from the violently undulating snow berms down to but a few hertz. Yes the fundamental frequency was that low. And you wouldn’t think it, but in this case I am happy to report, with plenty of amplitude! |
@joenies, I am glad that you experimented and tested springs under your non suspended turntable because now I don’t have to. I also have a heavy mass turntable (Transrotor Apollon 80MM TMD, roughly 130 pounds with three external motors) resting on a nearly 300 pound Clearaudio MontBlanc turntable stand (columns filled with concrete), on a concrete basement floor with stranded bamboo. I would like to know what issues you are trying to resolve or if this was a matter of experimentation? I can knock on the turntable stand and I don’t have any resonant sound getting picked up on the tonearm (who does that when listening to music anyway?), and I am also not getting feedback from excessive loudness from music and bass. It’s not happening, dead silent, so I don’t even think about adding suspension or suspending the turntable because I am completely satisfied with the performance based on the aggregate of the design parameters of the entire system. That is what is key here, synergy of the entire turntable system. Herr Reike from Transrotor has designed some really nice turntables over the years and acoustic feedback elimination is part of that recipe going into the design and build of many Transrotor turntables. Here is a nice video explaining the build details of Transrotor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38cZ0Bj-Ys That is why I never bothered to concern myself with the idea of adding a suspension system under my turntable which is built under the principal of being unsuspended. A few of my Deutsche audio friends scoff at the idea of adding complexity to an already rigid system combined with mass loaded racks etc, which help to ameliorate many floor and vibration issues. They rationalize that the precision of the design and noise reduction of the combined materials make for a very quiet platform to start with. I guess at the end of the day, tomato or tomatoe, whichever solution works best for each individuals system is best for them, but not best for all. Thanks for the feedback on your attempt of using a suspension system under your mass loaded turntable. It is good for some, not so for others. |
I had no issues with my TT. After reading many articles and post about how great the springs are, I thought I would try them. my TT sounded very good to my ears, just wanted it to maybe sound better. That plan didn’t work out for me. My TT is back on the rack and sounding good again and the plus is I don’t have to sneak up on it to make changes. @audioquest4life very nice analog setup you have. |
@joenies, Thank you for the compliment. The Clearaudio Master Solution is also a nice rig for listening to vinyl records. It seems that in this hobby, many of us tend to experiment a lot and test things, products, settings to see if we can gain better performance...or perceived better performance. Sometimes changes are different, but not necessarily better, just different sounding to our ears. That is why this hobby is so fun. We can experiment with our systems and come to a rational conclusion based on our own independent listening tests. Glad to hear that your turntable is back on the rack and sounding as it was before. Sometimes, when we attempt to make changes, don't like the change, we may strive harder to get back to our original sound before we messed with anything. Cheers, Ciao, und Freundliche Grüsse, Audioquest4life |
I know this is an old thread, but I’ve gone through my own trials on this issue, in a small room system with springy floor. A properly tuned spring suspension is still the BEST affordable TT isolation in this hobby, by far. But whether it’s by SOTA (built-in), Townshend (external platform), or another maker - the key to successful deployment: don’t let the springs get "excited" (i.e. set in motion). Bad things happen, because this in turn can cause the cartridge suspension to get excited - and then, either your woofers will try to escape their cabinets, and/or you’ll get nasty skips and POPs. So what excites the suspension? Any "event" that causes a displacement. If you’re on a flimsy floor, footsteps near the table are the most common cause. But even enough low frequency feedback from nearby loud speakers / subwoofers could also cause it. The key problem is that we audiophiles LOVE getting those freestanding "tower" style racks, and then plopping a nice heavy turntable atop it. It looks cool, and it’s functional to us. We like the tower tall enough so our old backs don’t have to bend over. Unfortunately, this is literally the WORST possible turntable support, and a great example of us audiophiles shooting ourselves in the foot. In such a setup, the turntable is cantilevered out into space, and any disruption to the nearby flooring will effect a LARGE displacement unto it. This excites the spring-on-mass resonant frequency suspension, and bad stuff happens. Expensive high-end racks are typically more rigid with a wider footprint, which honestly helps a lot (but probably not enough proportional to the $$$$ spent on HRS / CMS / SRA / etc) - but often does not fully solve the problem. Adding mass without simultaneously and proportionally increasing rack rigidity does not help, and in fact quite often makes the problem worse! So don’t bother filling your rack with sand/shot. What you SHOULD do, is brace the rack to limit its "cantilever" effect. Easiest is to just push it back up against a strong wall. I found a 2’x2’x2" foam Auralex tile worked great as a shim here, to ensure good contact. You may scoff at the inconvenience this causes for cable routing, but unless you’re on concrete slab - it’s worth it. Even a cheap rack can work great like this! My crappy $600 Lovan performs just as well as the $6K CMS now - and the CMS also was not usable in this room without wall bracing. One last point that bears repeating - this is Physics 101, but DO NOT EVER stack spring atop springs (e.g. a SOTA on a Townshend platform). Bad things happen. |
Hmmm, I quickly scanned this thread and did not see the discussion about suspended floors. Turntables have been in use for well over a hundred year. Suspended floors as well. Turntables that are placed in rooms with suspended floors should be placed on wall mounted shelves… this isolates them from problems associated with the suspended floors like footfalls. This has been the solution for many - many decades. Internal turntable isolation and under to isolation is not designed to deal with the displacements and amplitudes created by suspended floors. They are designed for much lower amplitude higher frequency vibration associated with the turntable itself.
Any discussion of vibration control of turntables with suspended floors should begin once the table is located on a shelf. |
@ghdprentice: Let me add that when going the wall mount route, if possible do so on an outer wall. If that is not possible, on a load bearing inner wall.
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An old technique for suspended floors is to install a jack directly under the location of the turntable, applying just enough pressure to stabilize the floor. That assumes the area under the floor is just a crawl space, not a basement. In the case of a basement, install a brace running from the floor of the basement up to the listening room floor, where the jack may be installed.
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Could be my sample size, but I don't see many wall mounted TTs in the virtual system section. For me I find wall mounting just a little too permanent. About once a year I rearrange equipment just for the sake of it. A wall mounted TT would really limit my options. Where are all the deleterious footfalls coming from when you play music? Again, going back to the virtual systems, not too many of us look like they have a dance floor in the listening room. |
A wall mount is a good option for those who want to go that route, and have a table that's not too massive nor large in footprint. I like pushing the rack against the wall because it's so easy to do, and leverages the strength & stability of being pinched between both wall and floor - the table is no longer cantilevered out into space. Limited displacement means much less chance to excite resonances in the system. Very effective.
As @noromance mentions, typical residential home construction in the USA is awful. Some of the setups I've attempted were so bad that a person walking 2-3 rooms away could cause a skip. Besides basements (which usually have very low ceilings to contend with), converting a garage is your only other "stable floor" option in most homes here. It doesn't always require footsteps, either. Particularly suboptimal setups can excite resonances just from energy coming from the speakers when played back loud. |
@mulveling thanks for resurrecting this thread. You make several really good points. My main listening room is in a wood framed house above the garage. Someone using the garage door makes for loud noises, but doesn't induce any skipping. The basement setup is on a concrete slab, but I place the TT atop a 5 shelf Quadrispire stand due to space limitations and concerns about my largish dog's tail. I don't find the non-optimal setup issues to be of much concern. If your TT skips because of loud music, i can only think it's been placed in bass peak mode area and/or you're playing music really, really loud. |
I use the Townsend pods under my turntable and I’m very happy.
Several years ago, I bought a high mass turntable - a trans rotor fat Bob S - and I had a flimsy small Lovan rack sitting on a sprung wood floor to work with.
The combination was particularly susceptible to footfall, my son who stomps like Frankenstein, walking past, the turntable, could even cause it to skip. Plus there is an air conditioner on the wall outside that can cause some rumble and I wanted to isolate from that too.
So I wanted to build an isolation platform for the turntable .
I spent many months testing out all sorts of different isolation material combinations . I used vibration measuring apps on my iPhone and iPad to get objective confirmation.
Absolutely nothing came anywhere close to the isolating properties of the Townsend Springs . Not sorbothane, not constrained layer damping. Nothing else.
Ultimately, I did end up with the turntable on top of a 2 1/2 inch thick butcher block , and then another layer of MDF and steel, all held up by the Townsend pods.
Without the pods , stopping my foot near the rack and with my hand on the rack, I could easily feel the vibrations and measure them. With the Spring pods doing the same , there’s virtually nothing to feel getting to the turntable when stomping the floor, and it’s almost unmeasurable.
Sonically, I have no idea if this aids the sound , but in terms of stopping major vibrations getting to the turntable it works great.
Finally, as to the issue cited in the OP: I have no such problem with the springs being too wobbly or being excited. Certainly if I leaned on one side of the platform, it would tip because it’s held up by the springs. But other than that, wobbling goes on at all. There is zero issue interacting with the turntable either to put a record on or two adjust my cartridge or anything else. It’s a non-issue.. |