Have you tried Bose?
The Snob Appeal Premium
I have learned that speakers are a typical victim of "Designer Label Syndrome". Supposedly an $8 billion a year market (hard to believe) speakers are fairly simple beasts with little substantive improvements over the last 50 years. Ever since Paul Klipsch ( a character in his own right) read the Bell Labs 1934 papers and revolutionized speaker technology there have been few similar revolutionary improvements to the speaker. So- if you are an enterprising manufacturer of speakers (which are relatively cheap to build) how do you extract more and more money from the consumer ? Answer: Synthetic demand driven by cachet' ! Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product.
Here's an anecdotal example:
I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare.
I auditioned a number of speakers- Perlistens supported by JL Fathom subs, B&W Signatures, Bryston Model Ts, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Bethovens. IMO all of these are somewhat similar towers (except the Perlistens). The price point was not as important as the sound- given the limitations of the application.
In the shopping for new or used I found a number of odd prices. The most unusual finding was a brand new set of Model Ts here in Audiogon advertised for $4K with a 20 year factory warranty. The dealer had one slide around of his hand truck and it put white paint smears on a corner of the Boston Cherry cabinet. Hmmm- 4 grand vs. 12 grand for a small fixable cosmetic flaw? I bought them. They sound fantastic. Some elbow grease and a furniture marker pen made the flaw vanish.
I asked the dealer (Paul Kraft in Easton PA- great guy BTW) why the Audiogon Blue Book for a Model T was so low. His answer was "snob appeal". Apparently there is a big bragging rights premium paid for having the UFO looking B&W Signatures vs what the snobs call the Bryston Model Ts "Axioms in a fancy suit". I later learned that there are some prominent reviewers who refuse to listen to A/B speaker comparisons behind a silk curtain unless they know what brand is being scrutinized. To me that means "payola".
Do the Model Ts sound better to me than the Mahlers, Bethovens, B&Ws? No. But they don't sound worse either (in my application). Do the above sound $8,000-$14,000 better than the Brystons in the listening rooms of the dealers? IMO NO WAY. To be fair price/value does color my perception much like a bottle of $40 Rumbauer Zin tastes better to me than $200 Silver Oak expense account wine.
I'm guessing this post will anger brand snobs and garner snarky comments because their taste in sound is different than mine. Although this missive is really about personal perceptions of value v. sound I found my education on pricing fascinating and I feel great about finding amazing value in the brand new Model T's that needed 30 minutes of TLC to be at home in my family room.
Moral of the story: Try em before you buy em, and look for value. It's fun and rewarding with no buyers remorse.
Other speakers I heard and tried YG acoustics Carmel 2, YG acoustics Hailey 2.2, YG Sonja 2.2 Vivid Kaya 25 & 45, Vivid Giya G1 and G2 Dynamikks Athos 10 (best bang per buck) Magico A5 & Magico S5 Kharma Exquisite Midi 3.0 Wilson Alexx V, Wilson Alexia V, Wilson Sash DAW Raidho TD 3.8, Raidho D3 Borreson 05 Should I say I have a dedicated listening apartment? Lol 😂 I have a house too I am fixing up and might sell and move south…or make a dedicated room if I move back in there. |
A wonderful system! I’ll bet it sounds great! What other speakers did you try ? Do you have a dedicated room as well? I felt that getting into this hobby at almost sixty I would just go for my end game from the start and not spend years finding what I preferred best. I did research and listen to my speakers and amp at my dealer first though. I am completely happy with how it turned out. I also built a dedicated room designed by an acoustician. |
@yesiam_a_pirate Here ya go! Canadian CraftsmanshipIt's incredibly difficult to produce loudspeakers that are of such substantial quality yet price them so competitively. Many other companies try to do so offshore. Bryston has managed to engineer and produce such remarkable loudspeakers right at home in Canada makes them even more impressive.
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The ROOM has so much more influence tham (one poster above indicating '10,000 to build') vs say 1,000 cost to build. Consequently, the 58k speaker will potentially sound WORSE than the 5k speaker in that same room. And A vs B is the ONLY way (as in EVERY subjective (the definition of TASTE) competition) to find out what you LIKE better (there is no "IS BETTER" when it comes to TASTE or any other subjective field). And THAT opens the EMOTION
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I just replaced my YG’s with Vivid Audio Giya G2 Series 2 Kubala Sosna Realization Cables Modwright KWH 225i integrated amp that’s a hybrid…it’s amazing and just so real sounding. It is a hidden gem and 220w into 8 and 400w into 4 ohms. It can compete with the big boys and beat most separates under 20-30k. I have a Lampizator Baltic 2 that was modified by VuJaDe Audio and recapped with V-Caps and Audio Note caps, new resistors and a steel cover over the transformer and a huge clarity cap on the power choke. I use a Sophia electric 274b rectifier. Streamer is an Auralic Ares G1 I am upgrading to a G3 when they are available. My system is not plug and play from big box stuff and I had to do a lot of work getting the sound I want. I went through 4 amps, 3 pairs of speakers and 3 sets of cables and 2 dacs and one sound engineer moding my gear before I got it the way I want. This took me over 3.5 years to get done. |
@mikelavigne I agree! I use my speakers more than my useless in the snow BMW convertible! Now I drive a Subaru Ascent! I listen to speakers more and have my main system hooked up to my television to get more ROI! |
OK I don’t want to insult you, but you really did listen to a lot of cheaper mdf partial board or wooden speakers. These sound like boxes. B&W is kind of bottom or the Barrel with Dynaudio and KEF and all that stuff and is lower tier. Good speakers tend to cost the same as a luxury BMW or Mercedes for a reason. My speakers were $58,750…So about 10%-15% goes to the distributor, 50% goes to the dealer…they cost about 10,000 to manufacture and 2000-3000 to ship on a pallet on a crate. The ultra high-end speakers is only a couple hundred a year and the crazy 100k speakers are a few dozen a year sold. As you go up the ladder, now you understand why the profit has to be high for it to make a business case. When you spend over $10,000 in parts just to make a speaker you’re gonna get some great speakers….when it’s 1500-3000 your speakers are going to be over 10-15 grand and be made with midfi parts. A reviewer for the absolute sound only makes about $500 for the review by the way! The industry is really full of people who love music. Most audio reviewers have other jobs. |
"Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product." Perceived value is more complex than that. If I can sell the LV sneakers on eBay for $550, surely their real value is $550? And what is the real value of a fake pair of LVs that sells on eBay at $200?
Are you sure that's real? |
B. Joel, in case you've forgot... *wry sigh*G* ...still true, but in varying and varied degrees, as pointed out above by those who can afford the entry tickets..and I'm not in competition by any means... ,,,nor interested anymore, either. I only have to impress myself at this time and place with the means 'n green I've for the pursuit. And 'being happy' means more than impressing those who'll never hear where I've been and currently am....
Spoon, The Hardest Cut Deal....but I do wear long sleeves...;) Enjoy the music, not the method. |
@mikelavigne congrats on being able to build an off-the-chain system. I'll be able to use your incredibly detailed virtual system to prove to my wife that I'm not crazy. OP. The Louis Vuitton analogy is weak; they wear out (or rather, become soiled) just as fast as New Balance. A better luxury-goods analogy is a fine time piece. My watch tells the time, but it's 15 years old, looks brand new having been factory refurbished once, and will outlive me. The same could be said for high quality audio gear; R&D, quality materials, workmanship. These attributes don't come cheap. The difference is bragging rights, or lack thereof. As an example, this long weekend I'd had a few friends and work colleagues over for a cook out. None of them are into hi-fi (or mid-fi). They were intrigued by my new tube amp. Some had seen the prior one. One person asked if the tubes were functional or just for looks! There was no discussion about brand or cost. No one asked and I didn't tell. There was a discussion about the music I played though. |
I have no doubt there is payola happening. A while back there was a review in Stereophile for a brand of speaker I'd never heard of and the reviewer admitted the same. A few short pages later, guess what? That's right, a full page ad for those speakers. Of course they deny such a thing happens but Lil' Donnie says he doesn't like too. |
Wturkey; I'm pretty sure these are 100% maple syrup and frostbite made- but who really knows these days? There is so much shell-game switch-a-roo now... largely because it's really hard to make a North American product economically. There is a video of the Axiom plant in Canada and it looks like the product is made there. I'd guess that the Bryston product is North American but who really knows anymore... The fit and finish is really good, and feels heavy and local. The packing is definitely North American. The Asians have some terrible cardboard. These came in some stout big arse boxes with hard foam blocking. They didn't feel Asian FWIW. I learned that the dealers are forced to buy the product outright- much to the frustration of the dealer I dealt with. Gun-to-head guess is that the cost to the dealer is about $4K. Speakers uniformly have massive mark up. My listening conclusions: The sound is muscle car big block in your face. Not delicate like the Vienna's. The Brystons are boring at low volume. Flat and dull. But with some volume (dinner party conversation volume after some wine and laughs) they wake up. Pushed to loud talking level they really start to sing. At higher volume levels they are just plain rowdy and fun. Me- I like quiet, but when nobody's home it's party time! They are a joy to listen to when they are loud. Subtle as a jack hammer and just as punchy. |
when i owned my 2016 Porsche CS2 for 18 months it was a garage Queen. a trophy. i drove it a few times a week in the summer. put 3000 miles on it. made me smile. but i listened to my system with multi-6 figure speakers 3-5 hours a day. every day of the year. no contest. the speakers had an infinitely higher ROI.....both in use and snob appeal and visitors to my room seemed to enjoy them regularly too. just my 2 cents. |
Generally speaking. For me, It is a pleasure when I can find the right amount of value for what is, by my gauge, the right amount of money. I’m not an audio snob. But, I have learned in my last purchase that cost does lead to quality and quality does lead to differences in experience that push me to spend more than I ever expected. I buy used. I shop hard. I listen. I accept the tradeoffs my budget requires of me, and appreciate the QPR I have achieved. |
Here is the thing… if I buy a Lamborghini… there are some people that will be impressed when they see it heading down the road. On the other hand if I buy a pair of $100k snob appeal loudspeakers… virtually no one will notice them or give a cr$p if they see them at my house. Overall, speakers are a bad investment if snob appeal is important to a person. |
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I'm being picky, but using the term "high end mid-fi system" basically downgrades anything else you stated. High end is a marketing term. Mid-fi is another marketing term. You then tie them to snob appeal? To me it's non-sensical. Other than that, congratulations on buying a good loudspeaker at a good price. |
I will assume that you are fairly new to high end from your comments, since everything that you said is commonly known to anyone who has been following high end gear for any amount of time. It's a little strange that you would be surprised though, especially since you make the comparison with designer sneakers, which we know are essentially the same functionally as any good sneaker. What is different about high-end gear is that while some very fancy looking products are only average in performance, some of the fancy ones actually live up to their looks. I am like you, I would be happy with the plain looking speaker that performs well. |