What doesn’t make sense is why proponents such as yourself don’t take me up on the opportunity before you. You know, the Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob repeat a few more times and see if you can guess right test.
It's because I don't believe in cheap parlor tricks. I trust my ears: something you can very easily do, but won't. I think it may be that statements like these, which indicate "digging one's heels in", is becoming painfully apparent as the naysayers refuse to concede the point that there is more than enough empirical evidence from novice enthusiasts to the very well heeled EE types that have tried fuses and hear the difference, even though measurements can't detect a difference. They're down to a few, standard lines of rebuttal now and seem quite silly by using them over and over. Cognitive Dissonance could be the answer. All the best, Nonoise |
You know what I have just been doing?
Cleaning a load of new to me vinyl.
You know what I am going to do next?
Listen to said cleaned vinyl.
You know, enjoying the music, what this hobby is supposed to be about.
Fuses, cables, warts n,all
Over and out. |
gdhalI then went on to request
(after your rebuttal) that you and others submit *any* alternative
procedure.
Not surprisingly, that too was/is to much to ask, and you/others never did.
I have stated here several times: I am willing to discuss, in public, a protocol to test the audible differences between
cables - including directionality - in what would be an objective,
scientific test that would also be held in public, such as at an audio store or audiophile club. This would allow others to participate at whatever level they choose. If this interests you, please start a separate thread for that purpose and I'll respond. My only precondition is that this be done in public. That would help ensure a properly designed test and that this is not a scam. |
Nonoise, Uberwaltz, Cleeds, thank you kindly for your gracious responses to my previous post.
Best regards,
-- Al
|
Nobody knows the ratio of Audiophiles who like $150 fuses to those who don’t care, and unless Geoffkait has access to data from the "Special Fuse Manufacturers Society" sales results, nobody has any idea how popular or otherwise they are in the audio geek community as a whole. I’m already aware of how successful SR fuses are because the owner pointed out that they’re making millions from them. On this particular thread, which the OP starts with a hyperbole filled promotional message, you’re very likely to get responses tilted toward the fan base. I get that. I can safely assume that 100% or so of the Blue Fuse fans spent 150 bucks on those fuses thinking they might improve the sound of their gear pile, and If I had done that I might also want some support and a forum to report on what a good idea that was. That's only natural. The fuses I tested were lent to me, so I had no money in the game. So the idea that "smart people with discerning ears, money, etc." like them has a lot to do with the fact they bought them in the first place…If "special" fuse makers sent samples to audiophiles who hadn’t thought much about fuses, and then said "if you like it please send me 150 bucks," I think the results may differ from the opinions here. I’m speculating of course. I certainly am aware of what fuses technically are there for, and admire them for selflessly performing the task of protecting my gear…thank you fuses. But how or why they possibly make the gear sound better, perhaps by massaging the protons or straightening out the current flow or vibrating less than otherwise due to being internally coated with graphene or Quantum Dark Matter or making better contact with contacts or being in the proper direction, still remains as an unexplained mystery. One thing I doubt anybody is going to do is open a Blue fuse and see what’s in there…too expensive for that. I know many otherwise rational people bristle at the fact that I seriously doubt they actually hear any sonic benefits from their fuses, but they shouldn't care much about that because, hey, they paid to hear those benefits and by gum they should hear whatever they darn well please! |
Nonoise said of Almarg:
Your lawyerly skills were on full display.
I may be (and often am) mistaken, but I believe Almarg is actually a retired ee with a background in digital and analog circuit design for military and other critical applications! Regardless, his comments are always well thought out, well written and courteously presented, to be sure OTOH, I wish some of the lawyers I work with had his engineering skills AND most especially that the engineers that I work with had his "lawyerly" skills ;-) BTW, I've never seriously considered buying aftermarket fuses, I don't know if anything I've heard outside of my house had any, but given how full the rest of my life is, I've no interest in spending my listening time going down that rabbit hole. |
wolf_garcia
Nobody knows the ratio of Audiophiles who like $150 fuses to those who don’t care, and unless Geoffkait has access to data from the "Special Fuse Manufacturers Society" sales results, nobody has any idea how popular or otherwise they are in the audio geek community as a whole.
>>>>Wolfie, you probably didn’t realize it but your friend and humble scribe is an audio insider. I have access to data. Tons of it. I was in an online conference two days ago with principals of HiFi Tuning and Synergistic Research and a dealer for both. Keep in mind I’m not even counting the sales of Isoclean, Audio Magic, Furutech, Create, Audio Horizons, etc. Capish? As for ratios, there were a couple negatives mentioned here. There was you. Then there was moopman. Those are the ones we know of. My ratio of 0.001 is actually giving you the benefit of the doubt. 😀
Note to almarg: And this is the guy you are propping up?
Your friend and humble scribe
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Hi Michael (Swampwalker),
While my background is mainly as you stated, Nonoise's statement was correct as I'm also a licensed attorney and patent attorney, with a JD degree as well as BSEE and MSEE degrees. Now fully retired, as you mentioned. And thanks for the very kind words!
Best regards,
-- Al
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@swampwalker
If I remember correctly, Al is/was a patent lawyer, among his many achievements. Either way, I do agree that a lot of accomplished people can do with more discipline from other studies. 👍
(myself included) 😖
All the best,
Nonoise |
Opps, Al beat me to it while I typed it in. |
From what I can see and read on numerous other threads Wolf appears to be very level headed and solid with good honest reviews of equipment, like the Schiit Loki, I was just perusing as just one example.
Plenty more but that was the most recent so I went with that for now.
I really have no idea why he has decided to take such a stance on fuses, just because he did not hear anything.
Does he truly believe the rest of the audio community who does and can hear that difference( numbering in tens of thousands) are ALL delusional?
Al gave quite a post last night with many good well thought out plausibles but Wolf appears to have completely ignored that post and its content entirely and resumed normal service.
Very odd. |
uberwaltz - .....Does he truly believe the rest of the audio community who does and can hear that difference( numbering in tens of thousands) are ALL delusional? ..... While I cannot speak or write to what wolf_garcia believes, I believe it is a distinct possibility that "yes", there is delusion at play. Just my opinion, of course. And, by your capitalization of the word ALL, it would seem you too agree that at least SOME are delusional. |
Sometimes it’s hard to admit you were wrong, or at least, fully aware of the situation after taking a stand. I’ve eaten enough crow to consider it an entree to avoid but it doesn’t negate the fact that I’ve passed it a few times, feathers and all. It didn’t lessen me, but it did make me more careful. In fact, I have a crow tattooed on my forearm out of respect.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@uberwaltz +1 You know what I am going to do next?
Listen to said cleaned vinyl. Thanks for a good lesson in perspective - I am going to go ride a bike. |
gdhal
uberwaltz - .....Does he truly believe the rest of the audio community who does and can hear that difference( numbering in tens of thousands) are ALL delusional? .....
While I cannot speak or write to what wolf_garcia believes, I believe it is a distinct possibility that "yes", there is delusion at play. Just my opinion, of course. And, by your capitalization of the word ALL, it would seem you too agree that at least SOME are delusional.
>>>>>Gosh, maybe a whole lotta placebos goin’ on or Aliens at work or mass hypnosis or a gigantic cosmic joke or maybe some kind of industrial conspiracy on an unprecedented global scale. Or maybe it’s you who is delusional. Ever consider that? How about them 🍎🍎🍎
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teo audio, uberwaltz, nonoise, there is no need to eat crow. When someone says nasties about someone we are all familiar with we just ignore them anyway, regardless of the issue. |
If "special" fuse makers sent samples to audiophiles who hadn’t thought much about fuses, and then said "if you like it please send me 150 bucks," I think the results may differ from the opinions here. I’m speculating of course. +1 Hypothetically a great idea. That then takes the expectation bias out of it as well. All prospective fuser’s should ask for this. As you Wolf, I think the results may differ from the opinions here Cheers George |
jetter,
I've always considered the source when responding. That, and I don't think teo audio or uberwaltz needs to be grouped with my experiences to make a point.
As for "ignoring them", how's that going?
All the best,
Nonoise |
Georgehifi wrote,
(Re sending fancy fuses to audiophiles upon request) +1 Hypothetically a great idea. That then takes the expectation bias out of it as well. All prospective fuser’s should ask for this.
>>>Uh, how would that take the expectation bias out of it? Wouldn’t the psychology be that since the fuse company was essentially giving them something for nothing, at least temporarily, the audiophile would believe the fuses would work. Otherwise why would they make such a generous offer? The dude would EXPECT the fuse to work. That’s what expectation bias is. Obviously if it was a naysayer who asked for the fuse he’d be all psyched out believing the fuse wouldn’t work. Which is possibly what happened with the Wolfman and Moops.
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After reading all the good reviews, I want to try replacing the fuses at the back of my CJ ART KT120 amps with Synergistic Research BLUE fuses but don't know which specification of the fuse to use. Can anyone who knows help me on this? Thanks. |
If one was to run a fuse, any of the types of fuses here in this thread being speculated on..any fuse of that size/type...under complex loads, through a complex set of distortion measurements on a audio precision system , lets say, an SYS-2722...and run a whole plethora of tests, on a hundred different fuses..a pattern of distortion measurements would be the result.
high order odd harmonic distortions.
The human ear is VERY sensitive to odd order harmonic distortion.
Again, this is the distortion pattern a fuse exhibits under the highly dynamic load that a piece of audio equipment puts the fuse under.
It is so well known, so well documented in the realm of expected fuse behavior... that an engineer of fuses and an engineer of audio equipment would look at you like you had three illiterate heads if you asked a question of it being measurable or noticeable in it’s effect on an audio amplifier.
Fuses, under dynamic loading conditions, exhibit high order odd harmonic distortion in how they deal with the current and voltage load.
the end.
High end audio fuses, do their best to eliminate or negate those expected distortions as much as is possible, so they are less audible.
I don’t buy high end fuses myself, I go for long time lag fuses (10kA flash break point), non magnetic ones with ceramic bodies, and that is as close as I can get to an expensive audiophile fuse with a custom designed filament, but... for about $3-5 each. This is the most linear distorting fuse you can get to without going ’audiophile’ and expensive. I’d even wager that the fuses that are cheap in the audio world, might just be made by these given companies like cooper-bussman, schurter (germany), SOC of Japan, and so on.
I can do this myself, but don’t recommend that others do it without research, as you can’t just stick any fuse in a socket, as you can easily invalidate the warranty and the safety of the device. No random fuse changes, just cause it sounds better.
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Uh, how would that take the expectation bias out of it? Because if you pay $150 up front for a $2 fuse your gambling and ridding that winner home. That’s EXPECTATION BIAS. This saying (one of Ralph’s "Atmasphere’s") his best contributions to this thread. If you borrow something, you'll be far more honest in your appraisal of it, and not embarrassed at what you've done. Also as many fusers say to "burn in" this "snake oil" fuse is longer than the return period is, $150 looser’s anyway you look at it. Cheers George |
I don't even have a dog in this fight.
I'm here as the idea that a fuse's distortions and effects are inaudible in an audio amplifier is extremely laughable. Absurd.
|
Thanks for stopping by. 👍
Next time do bring your dog. 🐶 |
- Because if you pay $150 up front for a $2 fuse your gambling and ridding that winner home.
A 30 day return policy, remember? This past Monday, I installed a new Blue fuse in my "Grover" CD player, replacing the brand new stock fuse that was in there. There was an immediate improvement in SQ. After last night’s session, it sounds perfectly broken in. Open up your wallet George and splurge a bit. All you have to lose if you don’t like it is the return shipping charge. Frank |
Frank
Now you know George can't do that, just think what would happen if he did and actually heard the difference.
He would have an instantaneous nervous breakdown on the spot as his whole world came crashing down around his ears..... |
georgehifi
Uh, how would that take the expectation bias out of it?
Because if you pay $150 up front for a $2 fuse your gambling and ridding that winner home. That’s EXPECTATION BIAS. This saying (one of Ralph’s "Atmasphere’s") his best contributions to this thread.
If you borrow something, you’ll be far more honest in your appraisal of it, and not embarrassed at what you’ve done.
Also as many fusers say to "burn in" this "snake oil" fuse is longer than the return period is, $150 looser’s anyway you look at it.
>>>>>George, the burn in time is not longer than the warranty period. Now you’re being silly. Is your slide rule broken? Besides, most fancy fuses are noticeably better than stock fuses right out of the box, even when they’re in the wrong direction. Haven’t you been paying attention? And wouldn’t the customer would be EQUALLY honest in his appraisal either way, if he borrowed it or bought it with a warranty period? He’d have to critically evaluate how the fuse performed to be able to decide to keep it or return it. Alas, your theory is all wet. Hopefully this is a sign that you’re running out of ammo, trying to come up with every ridiculous thing you can think of. Maybe time to take a break and regroup. 😬
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teo_audio....I'm here as the idea that a fuse's distortions and effects are inaudible in an audio amplifier is extremely laughable. Absurd. And, delusional. |
geoffkait - Besides, most fancy fuses are noticeably better than stock fuses right out of the box, even when they’re in the wrong direction. Maybe its your ordinary speaker wire in the wrong direction, fooling you into believing it's the fuse. |
Maybe it’s because I’m...(gulp) ......de-lu-soin-al 😳
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geoffkait - Maybe it’s because I’m...(gulp) ......de-lu-soin-al I agree. You are. |
The odds are against it, grasshopper. Look in the mirror. 👀
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My wife stopped watching soapopras, now she just reads this thread...
;-)
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Some comments regarding Teo_Audio’s post, in which as I understand it he attributes the audible effects of fuses, at least in amplifiers, to odd order harmonic distortion which “is the distortion pattern a fuse exhibits under the highly dynamic load that a piece of audio equipment puts the fuse under.” Generally speaking harmonic distortion occurs as a result of non-linearity. And a fuse is indeed a non-linear element, in the sense that the voltage drop across it is not in linear proportion (i.e., is not in direct proportion) to the amount of current it is conducting. That follows from the fact that the fuse’s resistance changes depending on how much current it is conducting. It should be noted, though, that Teo’s explanation mentions the specific case of amplifiers. And indeed, in the case of most amplifiers the amount of current conducted by both mains fuses and fuses in internal circuitry will vary dramatically as a function of the dynamics of the audio signal. (Although in the case of mains fuses, amplifiers operating in class A are an exception to that). As I said in my lengthy previous post: Almarg 4-4-2018 I suspect that the effects of the small but rapid variations in fuse resistance that occur in applications in which the current through the fuse fluctuates widely are somehow affecting circuitry that is downstream of the fuse. Presumably the fluctuations in resistance differ significantly among different fuse types. I can’t explain exactly how those effects on downstream circuitry may result, though.
However, I don’t see how Teo’s explanation would be applicable in the case of mains fuses that are used in preamplifiers and in most source components. In those cases the current being conducted by the fuse, rather than being subject to the “highly dynamic load” Teo refers to, is essentially constant. Other questions also arise in connection with the harmonic distortion explanation. Under typical circumstances are the odd order harmonic distortion components that are referred to large enough to add significantly to the corresponding distortion components that may be present on the incoming AC, even if a power conditioner is being used? And in the case of components which provide tightly regulated DC voltages to their audio circuitry, such as most well designed preamps and source components, how would higher order odd harmonic distortion components that may be introduced by a mains fuse influence the audio signal, given that rectification (i.e., AC to DC conversion), extensive filtering, tight voltage regulation, and the typically very great “power supply rejection ratio” of the audio stages would all greatly reduce (and arguably eliminate) that influence? I’m doubtful that any of us are in a position to provide definitive answers to those questions, in part because such questions cannot be readily analyzed from a quantitative standpoint. Finally, to be sure it’s clear I am certainly not saying that fuses don’t make a difference, and I am not saying that anything in Teo’s post is incorrect. What I am saying is that the explanation he has provided for audible differences among fuses does not appear to apply to many and probably the majority of the circumstances in which benefits have been reported. Regards, -- Al |
Al
A very well thought out and interesting post on the subject but to me just leads me to more questions from my own fuse experience.
The most dramatic effects I have witnessed on sq from fuses has been in source components, for example when I inserted a SR Black into my Exogal Comet Plus DAC.
At first I really could not detect much change, so I decided well maybe direction is a possibility after all so I reversed the direction of said fuse.
This wrought a major sq change and for reasons I admit I do not understand it made me a believer of fuses and direction of said fuses!
Now a pair of SR Black fuses as main line fuses in my BAT VK600 reaped much more minor and subtle changes, maybe if I had changed out all 4 buss fuses as well I may have heard more.
I am the first to admit I do not know why or how they work and you could well be right that it is a combination of many factors and in some peoples systems those factors may indeed be absent or at least of minimal consequence, hence the few non believers of the power of the humble fuse.
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We’ve been all over the fuse distortion and noise subject already many times. Please stop pretending it’s some big mystery, folks. Well, maybe in the inscrutable minds of the Uber Skeptics. Where’s Wolfie to ask for the umpteeth time, “Uh, why doesn’t anyone ever give an explanation?” Sob, sob! It’s not rocket science, people! 🚀 |
uberwaltz - ....At first I really could not detect much change, so I decided well maybe direction is a possibility after all so I reversed the direction of said fuse. This wrought a major sq change and for reasons I admit I do not understand it made me a believer of fuses and direction of said fuses!...
Hi @uberwaltz. I'm curious if the major sound quality change you heard was detected blindly or with your knowing whether or not the fuse direction was changed. In this context, blindly means you do not have sight or any kind of knowledge as to the fuses(s) orientation, you must have at least one other person who performs the fuse reversal (or not), then asks you to state if the fuse orientation was changed, then scores your response, then repeats same for at least a dozen times in order that your claim is consistent and reliable, and your total score is better than 90 percent correct. Thanks. |
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I’m not posting to debate the efficacy of SR fuses, merely curious about something. If these fuses are directional, why doesn’t Synergistic Research label them to indicate the direction they are to be installed? |
If you've ever seen a video of fuses being made, there's nothing graceful about it. They'd have to test each and every fuse for directionality, adding to the cost.
It's really simple enough to figure out for oneself as the results are immediately apparent.
All the best,
Nonoise |
thecarpathian - If these fuses are directional, why doesn’t Synergistic Research label them to indicate the direction they are to be installed? That would expose the fallacy. |
I seriously doubt that HiFI tuning and SR would be conferencing together, but if they were, why? Planning a sales territory treaty? Trading fuse coating recipes? Deciding on the table settings for a masked ball? One thing claimed "insiders" can't know is the ratio of audiophile fuse "naysayers" to "the faithful." A point successfully ignored by Kaitty. I get continued flack for repeatedly asking why fuses work, and although it's not "rocket science," this this forum thread is about expensive fuses, not rockets. Nobody has yet to make clear in any post anywhere what these special tiny wires do to "gain about an octave in low bass response," or help a system become "transformed into a magical music machine." Without the pesky directional issue. How? Why? Remember, regardless of the quantum coating of vibration damping directional nano juice, it's a teeny, tiny, little wire that is designed to melt. |
They'd have to test each and every fuse for directionality, adding to the cost. Not really. If directionality is a function of the wire production (as Geoff suggests) and not the fuse body or end caps, then, assuming the wire comes off a spool, SR should know exactly which direction is optimal and be able to account for that in their machinery and their tiny elves that paint arrows on the fuses. |
Haha, he said melt again, oh my. Had to happen sooner or later.
Oh and I LOVE the "my friend loaned me two fuses" BS. Nice. Roughly translated, you went round to your mate's house to hear a system you weren't familiar with, he said he'd bought a couple of fancy fuses, you listened, had nothing to reference it against, and decided they were smoke and mirrors. Lol. How close to the truth am I, wolf? Haha, can't wait for the dummy-spit reply, PLEASE don't disappoint. Priceless. Carry on everyone else. |
I stand corrected. I must admit, Al, that your writing skills are more in line w a JD than an EE ;-). |
There are oft times when it’s not clear which way the fuse should be pointed to be pointed in the “correct direction” such as when the fuse is located right where the power cord enters the component or inside sometimes it’s not clear of the direction of electricity flow, as it were, unlike cables and interconnects for which arrows are often provided and for which there’s no such issue.
For those reasons alone it’s best to instruct the user to try both ways. Not to mention even if the wire was controlled for directionality coming off the spool, as Cable makers do, I suspect handling the teeny wire when fabricating the fuse might change the direction accidentally. Most high end fuses have some sort of writing or symbol on them so the user can remember which way the fuse was last pointed, so he won’t lose track (ideally).
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^^^mitch2 It is also a mystery to me that why, if the fuses are directional, SR doesn't indicate the proper direction on them. As far as I can tell there are only two possible reasons. One is that they don't think the fuses are directional. Or two, if they do think the fuses are directional, they are amused at the thought of purchasers of multiple fuses turning them in a hundred direction combinations, especially if in the same piece of equipment, to get the final "right" combination. |
13 posts and all on "snake oil" fuses have you no shame. Your definitely
not doing the fuse "snake oil" brigade any favours.
If fact your helping the detractors. Keep it up!
Cheers George
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