Technics 1200G vs VPI Forever Model One

@dayglow I’ve considered all of them. I like the current number of options and various price points. Just all comes down to finances and what’s available at the time. HW-40 would be a dream, but even at 50% below retail I think it might be beyond my financial comfort level. 

@displayname      Get the VPI Forever Model One. Another option is the direct drive HW-40 which can deliver near reference level sound. If cost is a factor with the HW-40 look for a show model or dealer demo, purchasing a used turntable is very risky.

I haven’t pulled the trigger yet. We’ve got a big trip coming up in the fall so I’m going you wait until we return to pull the trigger. Plus that will be my 40th, so easier to justify spoiling myself. 

However, the more I think about it, the more I lean towards VPI. I’ve just always loved those tables, and I know that if I go with something else, I’ll probably still be wanting a VPI. It’s just that simple sometimes. 

@displayname Have you decided? Which one did you went with? I had the same dilemma a month ago which one would be a good upgrade/sidegrade from my VPI Prime with a Soundsmith Zephyr MiMC cart. I almost went with the VPI forever model one but have realized I want to streamline and eliminate boxes of gears at the moment and went with the 1200G with an ART9XA cartridge.  

I went blind for both tables but i love how fast to setup the 1200g and the motor is silent. I have to isolate my motor on my vpi prime as it gets feedback on my cartridge with it’s vibration.

Looks like the price on the VPI Forever One is jumping up to $5850, so $600 above the initial release. Some dealers still have it posted at the original $5250, but that's enough of an increase to factor it in. $1500 price point between the two is significant. I still think the VPI is a long term stronger offering, but that is a big price gap. 

I'm also still curious to see where they go with the Forever Series as well. We'll see what happens as units start to show up with dealers. 

Thank you.

Yes, either version of the Eagle would be capable of driving that motor.  The original Eagle was capable of 15W, the later version (SN > 620240) was rated at 25W.  The power output should also be on the front of the amplifier unit right below the AC output.

The bearing on the HW40 is easily accessed by removing the sub-platter, unfortunately, the only way to remove it is by dropping the whole motor assembly from the bottom side of the table.  There is a rather fragile flex cable that connects the motor to the drive electronics, so if you attempt this be careful not to damage this cable.

I have not attempted to lubricate the bearing on my HW40.  Will look into it.  I am trying to buy locate my Roadrunner and Eagle, which are reported to be sitting in storage unused and unloved.  Do you know if they could be used on my HW19 MkIII?

That technology worked and that is Phoenix the company that SOTA bought.  The back story is that the owner of Phoenix Engineering, Bill Carlin, disclosed online in a public forum the name(s) of certain supplier(s) to VPI, which was unprofessional.  Harry Weissfeld never forgave him.  So when Phoenix needed a buyer, VPI, which otherwise would have been a natural fit, felt more like a hostile take over.  Sota benefited in the breech.

@billstevenson Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it is completely wrong.  SOTA did not buy Phoenix Engineering and I did not need a buyer.  I chose to close it down and turned down many offers from interested purchasers for reasons I won’t go into.  Several years later, a shared contact put SOTA in touch with me and I decided to provide the technology to them at no cost.  I do not collect a royalty and receive zero remuneration for the services I provide them.

As far as the incident with VPI, I did not disclose any information about vendors or ANY proprietary or protected information.  What I did disclose, was an e-mail from Harry praising the products that I had originally offered to VPI.  After they repeatedly yanked my chain and flaked out on any kind of discussions, I decided I could do better on my own rather than partnering with them, at which point Harry began making false and disparaging remarks about my products on public forums, even though in private he thought they were great products.  I considered that to be very unprofessional and  I cautioned him that if he didn’t stop making false assertions about my company and products that I would correct the record in public, which I eventually did, making him look like a hypocrite and a liar.

Question for you:  Have you attempted to lubricate the bearing on your HW40 as of yet?  It uses the same bearing as a Classic or Prime which requires periodic lubrication but it is not easily accessible on the HW40, requiring a major disassembly to reach it, which I would have thought would void the warranty.

@daveyf 

True. Hence one of the reasons I generally recommend components from companies like Conrad Johnson, Wilson, Sonus Faber, Boulder, Pass, MacIntosh, Transparent, Audio Research, Cardas... B&W... etc. 

Longevity is important for service and deep knowledge in research and development is important in product development for sound quality and reliability.

Also when choosing a audiophile component, companies like these have lots of reviews by reputable professional reviewers making it easier to evaluate against other equipment.

Those of us pursuing the high end learn about different sonic attributes slowly over time and often may make a choice of component not understanding some aspects of sound. This is where professionally reviews may identify differences we are not aware of and help us make better long term choices. 

Some of the attributes of sound that I learned about while owning electronics include grain, and lack of midrange bloom and rhythm / pace. Needless to say, once I heard them and understood... it was out with those components. 

Also, if one of the high end companies with long histories goes out of business... typically there will be a repair service that goes on long after the company is gone since there are so many units in use. 

Check this out.  Interview with John DeVore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9WYbi7afGQ

@ghdprentice  Unfortunately, I believe some high end gear does qualify as ’throw away’ For example, a speaker or an amp from a manufacturer that has gone out of business. Parts no longer available, but worse, nobody to work on the gear. A lot of these companies never published a schematic either, leading to more complexity and issues even if a tech can be found who is willing to attempt a repair. 

ARC is one of the better companies ( they actually publish their schematics!)  when it comes to long term support, but like i said before, with my D70Mk2, it was still  a factor, leading to my decision to sell the piece.

I think you are correct... general electronics repair is getting less common. I suppose that you are correct, consumer electronics is throw away.

But high-end is not throw away and most of those have factory support unless key components are no longer available. Audio Research has a big stockroom of parts and can repair most... but not all old Audio Research gear... stretching back decades. 

@ghdprentice  It's actually not the fact that gear occasionally needs servicing that concerns me, it is the question whether you can actually find someone to do the servicing. Seems like this trade is becoming scarcer as more and more gear is considered as 'throw away'. 

@daveyf 

Yes, you have found an example of a unit that needed service. There have been some over the high end's history.

But that is not common and much less so today. Many tube amps are now auto biasing or the older ones, easy to do yourself.

Most high end gear is incredibly reliable, for decades. In my fifty years as an audiophile there was only one piece of equipment that had to go to be serviced, a Sonic Frontiers CD player that had its transport go out three time... they replaced it free each time. Obviously a problem with the transport. Not with Sonic Frontiers in general. 

So, service should enter your purchase decision, more for mechanical devices than electronics, and more for tube electronics than solid state. 

Let’s not do politics by doing politics. Brilliant I say…..

Owning almost all high end audio is subject to the variable of whom will repair it when it needs servicing, and all of this gear will ultimately need some kind of a repair.

The problem i see is that fewer and fewer folk are able, or are incentivized, to do this kind of work.

For example, I used to own a fantastic sounding ARC D70Mk2. The amp was one of the best from the glory days of WZJ. The problem was that whenever I needed to change out tubes, or to modify the biasing, a tech was basically required. The system to adjust bias was basically criminal ( lethal voltages involved) unless one really knew what one was doing...and in some cases had access to a scope. At the time, I had a very good tech who was ARC trained, and who was local. Unfortunately, this gent passed away, and while there are a few other options locally, they are not specialists in the area. Returning the amp to ARC every time I needed to re-bias really was not an option. So, I made the decision to move the amp on and  while i really miss its SQ, I don’t miss the repair aspect one bit. 

I totally concur with what BillStevenson posted above.

Amen again!

We're not supposed to do politics, but amen to that!

VPI does have good support AFTER you've  purchased  their product. 

I bet Technics would at least offer a technical support service center location as a resource especially for a model still in production despite being out of warranty?

Regardless, if you end up going for a VPI or even that MoFi(when they drop the price of the MasterDeck due to lack of sales) it's a solid choice.

Turntable  madness is SO FULL of right/wrong and "authorities."

The LP pedigree is also a topic of endless discussion which IMO, is of equal importance.

I'm one of those best available period,original press weirdos. No audiophool/ re-release (except for unobtanium super rare) for me!

All I know is that @billstevenson  makes a valid point. Doesn’t matter if Technics service is top notch in Japan, because I’m not in Japan. Doesn’t matter if the distributor should take care of it, because it sounds like they didn’t. 
Should have, would have, could have doesn’t make it any easier to actually get it fixed. As someone going through a TT fix at the moment, I do have a new found appreciation for a US based company with excellent service. And thus far, Mofi’s service has been exceptional. 
 

It also has me rethinking amp choices as I go up the chain as well. 

All these technologies and all turntables marketed since, say, the early 60s, could be described as "old technology" re-packaged.

westcoastaudiophile, 

Can you provide a link?  My GAE arm tracks well, but it will no longer raise and lower at the back to adjust VTA for differing cartridge profiles.  It has been maintained IAW the recommendations provided in the manual and I am the original owner. 

VPI is the master at repackaging their old technology w/new.

"arm freeze problem” - Technics arm will perform well if maintained properly. My GAE’s arm tracks well up to 0.5gf with AT-ML180! There are couple of simple steps "how to” video on youtube.  

lewm,

First and most importantly, I am not angry.  My GAE is long out of warranty.  The dealer is out of business.  The TT is in daily use, sits beside my HW40.  Mono/Stereo.  I play a lot of records.  I researched the arm freeze problem looking for a solution and that is how I learned that it is a common problem.  I have not discovered a local repair option.  Technics, as you say, is part of a big corporation.  Their customer support is not competitive with VPI in the USA.  That is the small specialty company’s unique advantage.  If I spent the time there is no doubt that my arm could be repaired.  I have not spent the time yet.  We will be going to our NH home for the summer and that is the time to send the GAE off to wherever it going to have to go for service.  My motive in posting here is to share my experience so others will not have any false impressions one way or the other.

Don't you think it has a lot to do with the fact that one company sells only turntables and tonearms and is based in New Jersey (I think) and the other is a small fraction of a huge conglomerate that sells products all over the world and is based in Tokyo?  If you lived in Japan, the service would rival that of VPI any day of the week.  (We visit Tokyo annually, and I have observed the interaction of audiophiles with their dealers in that city.) In the US, the service is based on what the distributor cares to provide.  I think your beef is with him, not Technics.   Have you actually complained to the distributor? If he is unresponsive, perhaps you ought to report your experience to some higher authority at Technics. You say the frozen VTF problem is common, yet I have not seen any reports of similar problems here on this Forum or over on Vinyl Asylum. This is not at all to say I doubt your veracity, and I don't blame you for your anger if you have been ignored by either your dealer or the Technics distributor, but you have not given details. In general, turntables and tonearms are relatively simple devices and tend to be quite reliable.  If something goes wrong it is usually the motor or the electronics that govern the motor. So I would choose a TT based on its merits as a TT, not on the service issue.  Also, I have only owned vintage Technics TTs, where there is no prospect of having the factory provide service under any warranty. Still, I have never had a problem with any Technics TT.  If buying new, then yes the dealer is important of course. In your case, did the dealer let you down?

lewm,

My comment concerns the two companies and how they do business.  

I had a VPI turntable for twenty years without need for any service... set up by the dealer. I bought my Linn LP12 about five years ago and my dealer set it up in my home, and then upgraded it a couple times. So, I never touched it either. So, choosing a dealer is a pretty good idea. Especially if you don’t like fiddling... I do not and am not competent at it. 

@billstevenson 

The first one is related to reliability.  My SL1200GAE has a frozen VTF adjuster.  This is a common problem and it is not trivial.  If people think it is difficult to get a demo, or to find a specific model to buy, try finding qualified repair technical support.

Here is my most important advice of all:  Pick your dealer first.

Thank you! This is really valuable input, and I truly appreciate it. 

@perazzi28 

Whichever TT you ultimately decide to purchase you may wish to consider a Dynavector 507 MkII tonearm.  

I’ve never heard or seen one of these in person, but I do love the unusual and industrial look

 Bill, I agree that your VTF problem, whatever is the cause, is regrettable, but it has to do with the tonearm, not the TT. So to say that your VPI TT is by comparison trouble free is apples to oranges.

Looking back over this thread a couple of things stand out for me.  These are my impressions based on my experience and how that differs from some of the impressions that have been expressed here.  The first one is related to reliability.  My SL1200GAE has a frozen VTF adjuster.  This is a common problem and it is not trivial.  If people think it is difficult to get a demo, or to find a specific model to buy, try finding qualified repair technical support.  This does not render the TT inoperable of course, but it is a PITA.  By contrast I have not had any trouble of any kind with my HW19 MkIII, bought new in 1986 and still in service, or with either my Prime (traded) or my HW40 Anniversary (current).  Also VPI is a phone call away if I need anything.  This difference is significant between these two companies.  Finally, I have to comment on all the energy that has been expended on the difference between belt drive and direct drive turntables.  This is a tempest in a teapot.  Both are excellent, either is a fine choice.  Basing a decision on either at the current state of the art is silly.  Intelligent people will concern themselves with things that are more likely to matter.  Like ergonomics, reputation, and dealer support.  Has anyone mentioned the critical role that the dealer will play in how well a new turntable purchase will go?  Here is my most important advice of all:  Pick your dealer first.

Whichever TT you ultimately decide to purchase you may wish to consider a Dynavector 507 MkII tonearm.  Currently available from Dynavector USA. 

I can only attest to my DV 505 that I purchased in February 1981. Incredible tonearm and the DV 507 includes many improvements.  Currently using it on my VPI HW 19.

@tablejockey I think a better way to say what I was thinking is that I can’t really know until I try at least one. 

"it might not be totally necessary, but seems like it wouldn't hurt "

Use that reasoning, you'll be able a hopele$$ audiophool.

Mats are like seasoning on food.Very important but very individualistic.

@lewm as I've read more it sounds like I would potentially need a thicker mat for my Hana cartridge on the 1200G anyway. Certainly something I'd need to consider. So many mixed reviews and comments, so it might not be totally necessary, but seems like it wouldn't hurt. 

Nah. Just buy one pad that is superior to the stock pad, and leave it at that. There is anal, which is a given for all audiophiles, and there is really anal.  This is really anal.

Im using a VPI Superscoutmaster from many years ago ( bought new).. sold to me by Harry himself.   I upgraded the belt drive to rim drive, the platter to the solid metal one, the arm to the plastic (?) one, still using the SDS ( better than the new version) etc., etc.   I did everything myself with the guidance of VPI...never had it in for repair....just goes and goes like the energizer buddy.  Sounds great...silent but deadly.

Playing an LP at an affordable/reasonable high level shouldn't be so complicated.

A used VPI IMO, is where the real value can be found.

 Thank you both, I appreciate the feedback. 

"What about tables that don't use or require a platter pad? My mofi table, VPI tables, etc."

As mentioned-"most"

VPI is in the no mat group. Some owners prefer one-bare for me. To my ears just get a cartridge to your liking and get all the setup parameters dialed in.

Playing an LP at an affordable/reasonable high level shouldn't be so complicated.

A used VPI IMO, is where the real value can be found.

Im using a VPI Superscoutmaster from many years ago ( bought new).. sold to me by Harry himself.   I upgraded the belt drive to rim drive, the platter to the solid metal one, the arm to the plastic (?) one, still using the SDS ( better than the new version) etc., etc.   I did everything myself with the guidance of VPI...never had it in for repair....just goes and goes like the energizer buddy.  Sounds great...silent but deadly.

Getting the platter pad right is something you have to do with almost every 'table made...

What about tables that don't use or require a platter pad? My mofi table, VPI tables, etc. 

demo is effectively worthless because the pad has such a significant impact on the sound? 

@displayname Yes.

Getting the platter pad right is something you have to do with almost every 'table made...

@atmasphere  so what you’re really saying is that even though the Technics is nearly impossible to demo (for me) because of their limited dealer network, a demo is effectively worthless because the pad has such a significant impact on the sound? 
 

In my mind the main selling points (for me) on the Technics was perceived reliability, and a lack of needing to tweak it. But if we’re talking about pad rolling, adhering pads to the platter, arm swapping, etc… well all of that frankly makes the VPI option more appealing because it’s built for it. 
 

That’s not something I want to do in the near future on any table, but if I end up doing it I think I’d prefer to do it on a platform that’s designed for that. 

@displayname Again, if you didn't deal with the platter pad issue, you've not heard the Technics.

IOW if you don't use the same platter pad when auditioning differences, you are introducing a variable. The stock platter pad of the Technics is pretty terrible.

Appreciate that feedback. I actually demoed the GR side by side against the Mofi Ultradeck. I like to refer to that as a “buyers” demo instead of a “reviewers” demo. I asked the dealer to pick any cart he felt worked well with the GR that would put my OTD cost as close as possible to the Mofi with the Master Tracker. 

The dealer put on a great demo. I brought 3 of my own records, and he included one of his own, and he asked me to bring my phonostage so we could have a better sense of cartridge matching. I went home with the Mofi UD/MT combo, and I just recently replaced the cart with a Hana ML. 

Maybe that means I’m belt drive biased, or maybe it was the cart difference. But I’ve had the Mofi since 2018 and I’m just now seriously considering an upgrade. 

I went Technics (with the lesser 1210GR) and never looked back. It’s nice to finally have a turntable that can manage sustained notes without audible flutter. Can’t say that for any belt-drive I owned. 
 

If measured performance is important to you, the only belt-drive tables I’m aware of that can compete with the Technics G are from SME. 

Agreed.  It would be a different product.  And they already make and sell DDs under other model names.