This is a bit of a loaded question, and the Forever line is probably still too new, but I'm going to toss this out anyway.
For backstory, I currently have a Mofi Ultradeck and it's treated me very well, but I'm starting to think about the next step and which piece I'd like to save for.
The Technics obviously has a legendary status, and is probably one of the lowest maintenance tables on the market. However they have become much more difficult to demo and you really have to purchase on blind faith that it will live up to expectations. The only time I've ever seen a 1200G was when I purchased my UD back in 2018 I demoed it alongside a 1200GR the dealer has one on display but I didn't get to hear it. That was before Technics scaled back to only higher volume dealers, which is somewhat annoying as a customer. But it's also the more affordable of the two options and I've also noticed the number of reviewers that continue to depend on the 1200G for their main systems. Obviously the option to quickly change headshells is part of the reason for reviewers, and that wouldn't really apply for me because I'm much more of a one cart type of person. But none the less, the 1200G sounds like a no brainer on paper.
However, I've always loved the looks and sound of VPI tables. I've heard several over the past decade, and every time I've enjoyed the sound and performance regardless of surroundings system and cartridge. It also helps that I normally hear them in fairly high end systems with quality cartridges. Last weekend I also got to meet Mat Wiesfeld at SWAF and got to spend a solid amount of time evaluating the Forever Model One. I really liked the sound of the table, love the look, and the modular design is interesting but also might be annoying. But the upgradability and repair options does have a real appeal to it, especially when I think about long term upgrades. The ownership experience will not be as easy. Replacing belts, oiling bearings, manual belt speed changes, suspended design. While it certainly seems easier to own than the older unipivot arms, it will require more effort and TLC. But it does have a cool factor that I just don't get from the Technics, and the idea of upgrading speed controls and arms over time does sound cool. I also have more faith that VPI will continue to honor service well past the production period of the Forever One. I'm not sure I have that same faith in Panasonic once the 1200G is discontinued.
Would love to hear thoughts from others on which direction you would go and what pushes you that way.
I don’t think you can go wrong either way, especially if you have no particular preference for one type of drive system vs the other (Direct Drive vs Belt Drive). They really are quite different in their advantages and disadvantages. But otherwise, follow your heart. One thing though, you wrote, "I also have more faith that VPI will continue to honor service well past the production period of the Forever One. I’m not sure I have that same faith in Panasonic once the 1200G is discontinued." You’ve got to be kidding. Panasonic (aka Technics) have been around as a company for more than 50 years, and that only counts their years in the TT business. Panasonic is one of the biggest businesses that still dabbles in audio, and I wager the 1200G series alone has sold more units than any other lineup in the world, not to mention all the very popular TTs sold under the Technics name since the 1970s. On the other hand, VPI is a family business, albeit a very successful and robust one. But its existence depends on the Weisfelds alone.
I see on line that there is an ADS motor controller available as an option on the VPI. I highly recommend that you budget for the ADS along with that turntable, if you go in that direction. Motor controllers make a huge difference (upgrade) for a BD turntable.
Upgrade to a next level phonostage if you haven’t already to make either choice perform its best.
Thank you, I forgot to add my other associated equipment. I meant to do that.
I currently have a Hana ML on the Ultradeck, and I will likely carry that onto either new table. That runs into a Bob's Devices Sky 20-S and then a Sutherland 20/20 w/LPS.
@displaynameI do too, mounted on a Technics, where it tracks everything I've thrown at it. Its biggest weakness is its platter pad, which I have replaced. If you don't get the platter pad right, its pretty hard to get the rest of it right. The platter pad must damp the LP properly and few (including the stock pad on the Technics) do.
IOW if the platter pad isn't right, you've not heard what the turntable really does.
I plan to install my Triplanar on my Technics SA1200G as soon as I can.
@tablejockey I have been looking at the MasterDeck, but to be honest the price reduction on the Ultra/Studio decks without a follow up product is a big turn off for me. It’s hard to spend $6K when I can’t help but think if they’ll lower it to $4,500 in a year.
I got on the Ultradeck at the original higher introductory price, I won’t do it again for the MasterDeck. Not saying it will happen, but that thought will always be there if I got it at the current price.
I owned a VPI turntable for a couple decades. I would unhesitatingly recommend VPI. I know lots of folks that like Technics, but I am not one of them. I have not had the positive experience with the sound.
At this point in a thread like this (a "which one to buy" thread), all the cards are on the table. No one is going to say anything totally new to the topic or too revelatory. What will happen is you will accumulate opinions on one table vs the other, or on DD vs BD, in a case like this where you are choosing between one of each type. The OP can go ahead and make his buying decision. Seems to me he's made it already.
When you do buy the VPI, think hard about adding the ADS is all I can say. Or add it at a later date.
" You are making the1200G feel like a bit of a goldilocks here. "
Reality, it's going to be your call and ears.
I truly enjoy my VPI Classic. Would I ever buy another VPI? With the exception of the HW40, doubtful. I do like the traditional look of the VPI Classic
IMO, if you're seeking "close enough" to SOTA, Classic series can do the job. Perhaps the Forever has a more "lively" presentation, being suspended?
An actual side by side would be the only way for you to decide what's your "Goldilocks."
As you mentioned, Technics is a Toyota/Lexus that will keep you listening as long as you're upright.
As lewm mentioned, ADS speed control for the VPI is paramount. A more precise option is the SOTA/RoadRunner setup.
You know, until last weekend I was dead set on the 1200G, and now I'm really questioning it. If I could demo them side by side it would make life much easier, but I realize that's kind of unrealistic unless I want to buy both and return one.
@alucard19No offense but I would not put the PLX-1000 in the same category as the 1200G in any way except for looks. There are a number of reasons that table cost a fraction of the price.
Perhaps I can help. I have 3 turntables: In my main system, sitting next to each other are a VPI HW40 and an SL1200 GAE; at our second home sits my VPI HW19 MkIII with SME arm that I bought new in 1986. This latter, while not as spiffy as the Forever One, is undoubtedly the inspiration for it. I also owned a fully pimped out VPI Prime, which was traded in toward the HW40. And I had a fully KAB modified SL1200 MK 2 before the GAE. So I not only own these turntables, I have a few hours of time evaluating them. When a college student I worked in HiFi stores and became a turntable setup man too. So those are my qualifications. As you have already been advised, you can't go wrong either way. The two turntables will sound different, both because one is direct drive and the other is belt drive, but even more importantly because of their arms. The best way to evaluate the difference is to buy both and set them up at home and listen to them. Preferably using identical cartridges. I know that is a bit much, but that is the only way to be absolutely sure of the difference sound to sound. Otherwise recognize that either will sound just fine and go with your heart in the knowledge that within a short time your ears will break in, or in other words, you will adapt to the one you have decided upon. Now let me speak of this matter in another context. No matter which one you choose it will undoubtedly give you many years of faithful service. Speaking first from my experience with VPI, every 4 or 5 years it needs a new belt, currently $30. I clean and relubricate the bearing at that interval using bicycle bearing grease that I always have on hand. The whole task without rushing takes maybe 30 minutes. Last year I had the arm rebuilt by SME in Canada after almost 30 years. I have had occasion to call VPI for other reasons too. I also own record cleaning machines etc. and these people answer their telephone. They have parts for everything I have ever needed. By contrast Technics is not the same animal. It is just a big corporation. Currently the arm on my GAE needs service as the VTA adjustment is frozen. This is a common problem. It is not easy to repair and it is not easy to find qualified support. KAB could do it if I want to ship the turntable from South Florida to New Jersey, but that would entail entrusting it to the tender mercies of a courier service. So as a practical matter, in terms of long term ownership, VPI is the clear winner in my opinion. YRMV, but I doubt it.
Thank you @billstevenson! That’s a fantastic review and I really appreciate you sharing your experience with both brands and tables. Honestly couldn’t have hoped for better input.
I've had a 1200G for the past 4 or 5 years now and am very happy with, though I am not enamored with its appearance (mine's in silver) and I do wish it looked more like a Pure Fidelity 'table.
FWIW, we listened quite extensively to the VPI Forvever M1 (w/Shyla cartridge) at CAF last fall. A gentleman audiophile bud brought some very nice albums (LZ II RL Promo, Magical Mystery Tour HorZu, Dead Can Dance, …) and the table performed quite well in the context of a very nice system (ARC electronics, Pure Audio Project speakers).
They did have a VPI ADS hooked up; Mat said for ease of speed switch as much as anything in this case. That motor cover would have to go, or at least have an “easy to remove” mod if you didn’t get the ADS. Not sure if that’s still the design…
I’ve enjoyed my VPI Signature 21 (w/FatBoy Gimbal) a lot the past three years (different beast); currently retired/stored but it was very reliable, easy to maintain, looks cool. I have the ADS…seemed to help sound a bit but certainly facitilates 33/45 switch. I found the VPI P-Ring very useful and was used on every album (w/HRX weight)...easy to take on/off. Not sure if the Forever can take the P-Ring, though...
That motor cover would have to go, or at least have an “easy to remove” mod if you didn’t get the ADS. Not sure if that’s still the design…
I know the motor cover is in place with thumb screws. I did think about that. At SWAF they didn’t have the ADS in the system, and on Sunday I saw that they had the cover off so they must have been doing some switching. I would certainly plan for the ADS if I went that direction, but maybe not initially. The manual belt change is probably the most annoying part of the Model One, but I also live with that now so it’s not the end of the world.
I do believe the Model One can take the P ring, but I’m not 100% on that though.
I've had a 1200G for the past 4 or 5 years now and am very happy with, though I am not enamored with its appearance (mine's in silver) and I do wish it looked more like a Pure Fidelity 'table.
Have you had any issues or just quirks with it? Curious if you were to ever upgrade what would you be looking for in a new table that the 1200G doesn’t quite offer?
The HW-40 is pretty much a state of the art turntable and would be suitable for use with any tonearm in my opinion. One of the interesting things to ask is: Are any of the arms you mentioned really better than the one it comes with. I do not know, but have set up Tri-planars twice over the course of time and they do not perform measurably better than it does. By that I mean to say the arms properly set up trace test records similarly. I cannot comment on comparative sound quality as I did not have them at the same time. Moreover it requires two identical cartridges to do a proper A-B comparison of arms and that is extremely difficult to obtain. In fact I doubt there is any such thing as two identical MC cartridges. Of course to your question the HW-40 would make a nice base for any nice arm.
"Are any of the arms you mentioned really better than the one it comes with."
"have set up Tri-planars twice over the course of time and they do not perform measurably better than it does."
billstevenson-
Your comments could raise eyebrows for those with hyper setups!😄
Confirmation of my immediate thoughts. The VPI gimbal & unipivot are both low tech and simple, yet effective. I've been curious about what a gimbal upgrade would do in my Classic, since it's a drop in mod.
"I would certainly plan for the ADS if I went that direction,"
displayname-
Sota/RoadRunner is superior to ADS, if you're serious about VPI.
I can speak to what I have personally observed. I set up quite a few turntables and arms starting in the 1970s using test records and "O" scopes. Over time anyone who has this experience can tell you that you get a feel for these things. I can tell you that there is reason to be skeptical when it comes to tonearms. Sometimes simple designs work quite well. Hence wooden ones from Germany for example. I have not yet set up one of the new ones that Ortofon offers made in Japan, but I'll bet it is superb. The Fatboy is an excellent tonearm. The Triplanar works fine, but it reminds me of an old Jaguar XKE I had years ago.... We needn't get into that. When I owned a VPI Prime, I bought a Roadrunner/Eagle to get the damn thing to play my records at the correct speed. That technology worked and that is Phoenix the company that SOTA bought. The back story is that the owner of Phoenix Engineering, Bill Carlin, disclosed online in a public forum the name(s) of certain supplier(s) to VPI, which was unprofessional. Harry Weissfeld never forgave him. So when Phoenix needed a buyer, VPI, which otherwise would have been a natural fit, felt more like a hostile take over. Sota benefited in the breech.
I concur that the Eclipse system, which I believe is the name of the package that gives you a SOTA motor, the drive amplifier, and the Roadrunner that feeds back to it, plus the required Hall sensor to give the RR something to read, is likely to be superior to the new ADS, if only because the ADS probably does not incorporate a mechanism to read platter speed and correct for speed errors. I have been using the Phoenix Eagle amplifier and the RR to control my Lenco for several years now, and I would not be without it. I don’t know whether SOTA will sell you the Eclipse system without the included motor. If they won’t do that, then you will be replacing the motor of your VPI, which is no big deal especially if the total cost for the Eclipse is near the same as the cost of the stand alone ADS. And by all accounts, the SOTA motor in the Eclipse package is superb. The only thing to check in advance is whether there is a convenient way to mount the Hall sensor on the one hand, and the magnet that the sensor senses, on the underside of the VPI platter and the top of the plinth, respectively. It’s no mean feat to get that done right; the magnet has to pass within one-eighth inch of the sensor with each rotation, at least with my older Phoenix Engineering setup. But it’s very rewarding if you can make it work. OR, you can buy a 1200G.
The only thing to check in advance is whether there is a convenient way to mount the Hall sensor on the one hand, and the magnet that the sensor senses, on the underside of the VPI platter and the top of the plinth, respectively. It’s no mean feat to get that done right; the magnet has to pass within one-eighth inch of the sensor with each rotation, at least with my older Phoenix Engineering setup. But it’s very rewarding if you can make it work. OR, you can buy a 1200G.
And this is the type of thing that makes the 1200G appealing all over again, lol
would you please share the name of your platter pad with us?
@petalumanSo far the best I’ve heard that is commercially available is the one made by Oracle. It must be adhered to the platter to realize its performance; it has a peel off back for that purpose. You’ve not heard it if you don’t permanently attach it. For this reason the three screws that affix the platter to the motor should not be installed if you want to remove the platter at a later date (shipping or repair).
@alucard19 - I own 3 Pioneer PLX-1000s, each purchased used for $350 and each included a cartridge and some accessories thrown-in to sweeten the deal. Currently, a new PLX-1000 is $739.
The Technics SL-1200G is currently $4300.
These 2 turntables look very similar, but there is no comparison otherwise.
The Pioneer PLX-1000 is a very good "Super OEM" copy of a Technics SL-1200 mkII. I've owned both and actually prefer the PLX-1000. It is a great value at it's current price, but is not in any way comparable to the Technics SL-1200G.
+1 @billstevenson- if the OP can stretch for a used HW40, that would be an ideal price/performance as both turntable and tonearms are high sonic quality. The other options seem more like sideways movement with maybe a small sonic uptick. The HW40 could easily be an endgame turntable
@kennyc- While I would LOVE to have an HW-40, that’s a little further than I can stretch at this point in my life. Maybe in about 10 years, but I would already be stretching for the tables in discussion.
But your point is not lost on me. If I can find a higher end VPI in excellent condition, I’d consider it. I have seen Prime Signatures come up occasionally in the same price range as the Forever Model One.
I am curious why you feel the 1200G or Forever Model One would be a sideways move from the Mofi UltraDeck? I’m quite surprised to hear that feedback.
Appreciate it! Unfortunately I just put down money for a new rack. But if history has taught as anything, this may not be the last time we see these at this price.
@displaynamedirect drives have a distinct sound. It is fast, zippy but a bit analytical in flow. If you don’t have an issue with it, consider the Denon DP3000 over 1200G. It is more musical
Personally i have tried many high end direct drives and don’t like any of them. The flow is too dry for me. I would take a belt or idler drive anyday
I prefer the Direct Drive sound and speed stability. I own the 1200. I am sure that the VPI under discussion here is probably a good piece of gear but for me it’s just weird to be able to change from belt to DD with the same table. It isn’t just a matter of flipping a switch. I would simply get both a DD and a belt drive and have them both in play
I am sure that the VPI under discussion here is probably a good piece of gear but for me it’s just weird to be able to change from belt to DD with the same table.
I believe the idea of converting the table to a direct drive in the future was purely speculation. I haven’t seen anything from VPI even remotely hinting at being able to do this.
They have hinted at the future of potentially changing the motor and the table drawings on the site do show a 3 button control panel, so it’s almost certain they will have push button speed control at some point. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a key feature of Model Two or Three, whenever those comes to market.
But converting the entire drive system to direct drive… I wouldn’t count on it.
I went Technics (with the lesser 1210GR) and never looked back. It’s nice to finally have a turntable that can manage sustained notes without audible flutter. Can’t say that for any belt-drive I owned.
If measured performance is important to you, the only belt-drive tables I’m aware of that can compete with the Technics G are from SME.
Appreciate that feedback. I actually demoed the GR side by side against the Mofi Ultradeck. I like to refer to that as a “buyers” demo instead of a “reviewers” demo. I asked the dealer to pick any cart he felt worked well with the GR that would put my OTD cost as close as possible to the Mofi with the Master Tracker.
The dealer put on a great demo. I brought 3 of my own records, and he included one of his own, and he asked me to bring my phonostage so we could have a better sense of cartridge matching. I went home with the Mofi UD/MT combo, and I just recently replaced the cart with a Hana ML.
Maybe that means I’m belt drive biased, or maybe it was the cart difference. But I’ve had the Mofi since 2018 and I’m just now seriously considering an upgrade.
@displaynameAgain, if you didn't deal with the platter pad issue, you've not heard the Technics.
IOW if you don't use the same platter pad when auditioning differences, you are introducing a variable. The stock platter pad of the Technics is pretty terrible.
@atmasphere so what you’re really saying is that even though the Technics is nearly impossible to demo (for me) because of their limited dealer network, a demo is effectively worthless because the pad has such a significant impact on the sound?
In my mind the main selling points (for me) on the Technics was perceived reliability, and a lack of needing to tweak it. But if we’re talking about pad rolling, adhering pads to the platter, arm swapping, etc… well all of that frankly makes the VPI option more appealing because it’s built for it.
That’s not something I want to do in the near future on any table, but if I end up doing it I think I’d prefer to do it on a platform that’s designed for that.
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