demo is effectively worthless because the pad has such a significant impact on the sound?
@displayname Yes.
Getting the platter pad right is something you have to do with almost every 'table made...
Technics 1200G vs VPI Forever Model One
This is a bit of a loaded question, and the Forever line is probably still too new, but I'm going to toss this out anyway.
For backstory, I currently have a Mofi Ultradeck and it's treated me very well, but I'm starting to think about the next step and which piece I'd like to save for.
The Technics obviously has a legendary status, and is probably one of the lowest maintenance tables on the market. However they have become much more difficult to demo and you really have to purchase on blind faith that it will live up to expectations. The only time I've ever seen a 1200G was when I purchased my UD back in 2018 I demoed it alongside a 1200GR the dealer has one on display but I didn't get to hear it. That was before Technics scaled back to only higher volume dealers, which is somewhat annoying as a customer. But it's also the more affordable of the two options and I've also noticed the number of reviewers that continue to depend on the 1200G for their main systems. Obviously the option to quickly change headshells is part of the reason for reviewers, and that wouldn't really apply for me because I'm much more of a one cart type of person. But none the less, the 1200G sounds like a no brainer on paper.
However, I've always loved the looks and sound of VPI tables. I've heard several over the past decade, and every time I've enjoyed the sound and performance regardless of surroundings system and cartridge. It also helps that I normally hear them in fairly high end systems with quality cartridges. Last weekend I also got to meet Mat Wiesfeld at SWAF and got to spend a solid amount of time evaluating the Forever Model One. I really liked the sound of the table, love the look, and the modular design is interesting but also might be annoying. But the upgradability and repair options does have a real appeal to it, especially when I think about long term upgrades. The ownership experience will not be as easy. Replacing belts, oiling bearings, manual belt speed changes, suspended design. While it certainly seems easier to own than the older unipivot arms, it will require more effort and TLC. But it does have a cool factor that I just don't get from the Technics, and the idea of upgrading speed controls and arms over time does sound cool. I also have more faith that VPI will continue to honor service well past the production period of the Forever One. I'm not sure I have that same faith in Panasonic once the 1200G is discontinued.
Would love to hear thoughts from others on which direction you would go and what pushes you that way.
86 responses Add your response
Im using a VPI Superscoutmaster from many years ago ( bought new).. sold to me by Harry himself. I upgraded the belt drive to rim drive, the platter to the solid metal one, the arm to the plastic (?) one, still using the SDS ( better than the new version) etc., etc. I did everything myself with the guidance of VPI...never had it in for repair....just goes and goes like the energizer buddy. Sounds great...silent but deadly. |
"What about tables that don't use or require a platter pad? My mofi table, VPI tables, etc." As mentioned-"most" VPI is in the no mat group. Some owners prefer one-bare for me. To my ears just get a cartridge to your liking and get all the setup parameters dialed in. Playing an LP at an affordable/reasonable high level shouldn't be so complicated. A used VPI IMO, is where the real value can be found.
|
Thank you both, I appreciate the feedback.
|
@lewm as I've read more it sounds like I would potentially need a thicker mat for my Hana cartridge on the 1200G anyway. Certainly something I'd need to consider. So many mixed reviews and comments, so it might not be totally necessary, but seems like it wouldn't hurt. |
@tablejockey I think a better way to say what I was thinking is that I can’t really know until I try at least one. |
Whichever TT you ultimately decide to purchase you may wish to consider a Dynavector 507 MkII tonearm. Currently available from Dynavector USA. I can only attest to my DV 505 that I purchased in February 1981. Incredible tonearm and the DV 507 includes many improvements. Currently using it on my VPI HW 19. |
Looking back over this thread a couple of things stand out for me. These are my impressions based on my experience and how that differs from some of the impressions that have been expressed here. The first one is related to reliability. My SL1200GAE has a frozen VTF adjuster. This is a common problem and it is not trivial. If people think it is difficult to get a demo, or to find a specific model to buy, try finding qualified repair technical support. This does not render the TT inoperable of course, but it is a PITA. By contrast I have not had any trouble of any kind with my HW19 MkIII, bought new in 1986 and still in service, or with either my Prime (traded) or my HW40 Anniversary (current). Also VPI is a phone call away if I need anything. This difference is significant between these two companies. Finally, I have to comment on all the energy that has been expended on the difference between belt drive and direct drive turntables. This is a tempest in a teapot. Both are excellent, either is a fine choice. Basing a decision on either at the current state of the art is silly. Intelligent people will concern themselves with things that are more likely to matter. Like ergonomics, reputation, and dealer support. Has anyone mentioned the critical role that the dealer will play in how well a new turntable purchase will go? Here is my most important advice of all: Pick your dealer first. |
Thank you! This is really valuable input, and I truly appreciate it. |
I had a VPI turntable for twenty years without need for any service... set up by the dealer. I bought my Linn LP12 about five years ago and my dealer set it up in my home, and then upgraded it a couple times. So, I never touched it either. So, choosing a dealer is a pretty good idea. Especially if you don’t like fiddling... I do not and am not competent at it. |
Don't you think it has a lot to do with the fact that one company sells only turntables and tonearms and is based in New Jersey (I think) and the other is a small fraction of a huge conglomerate that sells products all over the world and is based in Tokyo? If you lived in Japan, the service would rival that of VPI any day of the week. (We visit Tokyo annually, and I have observed the interaction of audiophiles with their dealers in that city.) In the US, the service is based on what the distributor cares to provide. I think your beef is with him, not Technics. Have you actually complained to the distributor? If he is unresponsive, perhaps you ought to report your experience to some higher authority at Technics. You say the frozen VTF problem is common, yet I have not seen any reports of similar problems here on this Forum or over on Vinyl Asylum. This is not at all to say I doubt your veracity, and I don't blame you for your anger if you have been ignored by either your dealer or the Technics distributor, but you have not given details. In general, turntables and tonearms are relatively simple devices and tend to be quite reliable. If something goes wrong it is usually the motor or the electronics that govern the motor. So I would choose a TT based on its merits as a TT, not on the service issue. Also, I have only owned vintage Technics TTs, where there is no prospect of having the factory provide service under any warranty. Still, I have never had a problem with any Technics TT. If buying new, then yes the dealer is important of course. In your case, did the dealer let you down? |
lewm, First and most importantly, I am not angry. My GAE is long out of warranty. The dealer is out of business. The TT is in daily use, sits beside my HW40. Mono/Stereo. I play a lot of records. I researched the arm freeze problem looking for a solution and that is how I learned that it is a common problem. I have not discovered a local repair option. Technics, as you say, is part of a big corporation. Their customer support is not competitive with VPI in the USA. That is the small specialty company’s unique advantage. If I spent the time there is no doubt that my arm could be repaired. I have not spent the time yet. We will be going to our NH home for the summer and that is the time to send the GAE off to wherever it going to have to go for service. My motive in posting here is to share my experience so others will not have any false impressions one way or the other. |
All I know is that @billstevenson makes a valid point. Doesn’t matter if Technics service is top notch in Japan, because I’m not in Japan. Doesn’t matter if the distributor should take care of it, because it sounds like they didn’t. It also has me rethinking amp choices as I go up the chain as well. |
VPI does have good support AFTER you've purchased their product. I bet Technics would at least offer a technical support service center location as a resource especially for a model still in production despite being out of warranty? Regardless, if you end up going for a VPI or even that MoFi(when they drop the price of the MasterDeck due to lack of sales) it's a solid choice. Turntable madness is SO FULL of right/wrong and "authorities." The LP pedigree is also a topic of endless discussion which IMO, is of equal importance. I'm one of those best available period,original press weirdos. No audiophool/ re-release (except for unobtanium super rare) for me!
|
| Post removed |
Owning almost all high end audio is subject to the variable of whom will repair it when it needs servicing, and all of this gear will ultimately need some kind of a repair. The problem i see is that fewer and fewer folk are able, or are incentivized, to do this kind of work.
For example, I used to own a fantastic sounding ARC D70Mk2. The amp was one of the best from the glory days of WZJ. The problem was that whenever I needed to change out tubes, or to modify the biasing, a tech was basically required. The system to adjust bias was basically criminal ( lethal voltages involved) unless one really knew what one was doing...and in some cases had access to a scope. At the time, I had a very good tech who was ARC trained, and who was local. Unfortunately, this gent passed away, and while there are a few other options locally, they are not specialists in the area. Returning the amp to ARC every time I needed to re-bias really was not an option. So, I made the decision to move the amp on and while i really miss its SQ, I don’t miss the repair aspect one bit. I totally concur with what BillStevenson posted above.
|
Yes, you have found an example of a unit that needed service. There have been some over the high end's history. But that is not common and much less so today. Many tube amps are now auto biasing or the older ones, easy to do yourself. Most high end gear is incredibly reliable, for decades. In my fifty years as an audiophile there was only one piece of equipment that had to go to be serviced, a Sonic Frontiers CD player that had its transport go out three time... they replaced it free each time. Obviously a problem with the transport. Not with Sonic Frontiers in general. So, service should enter your purchase decision, more for mechanical devices than electronics, and more for tube electronics than solid state. |
@ghdprentice It's actually not the fact that gear occasionally needs servicing that concerns me, it is the question whether you can actually find someone to do the servicing. Seems like this trade is becoming scarcer as more and more gear is considered as 'throw away'. |
I think you are correct... general electronics repair is getting less common. I suppose that you are correct, consumer electronics is throw away. But high-end is not throw away and most of those have factory support unless key components are no longer available. Audio Research has a big stockroom of parts and can repair most... but not all old Audio Research gear... stretching back decades. |
@ghdprentice Unfortunately, I believe some high end gear does qualify as ’throw away’ For example, a speaker or an amp from a manufacturer that has gone out of business. Parts no longer available, but worse, nobody to work on the gear. A lot of these companies never published a schematic either, leading to more complexity and issues even if a tech can be found who is willing to attempt a repair. ARC is one of the better companies ( they actually publish their schematics!) when it comes to long term support, but like i said before, with my D70Mk2, it was still a factor, leading to my decision to sell the piece.
|
True. Hence one of the reasons I generally recommend components from companies like Conrad Johnson, Wilson, Sonus Faber, Boulder, Pass, MacIntosh, Transparent, Audio Research, Cardas... B&W... etc. Longevity is important for service and deep knowledge in research and development is important in product development for sound quality and reliability. Also when choosing a audiophile component, companies like these have lots of reviews by reputable professional reviewers making it easier to evaluate against other equipment. Those of us pursuing the high end learn about different sonic attributes slowly over time and often may make a choice of component not understanding some aspects of sound. This is where professionally reviews may identify differences we are not aware of and help us make better long term choices. Some of the attributes of sound that I learned about while owning electronics include grain, and lack of midrange bloom and rhythm / pace. Needless to say, once I heard them and understood... it was out with those components. Also, if one of the high end companies with long histories goes out of business... typically there will be a repair service that goes on long after the company is gone since there are so many units in use. |