I find that most salespeople that I encounter in real stores are old line audio guys who know something about amps, CD players, turntables, speakers, etc. Streamers however are networking computers housed in audio component casework and many of the sales people are clueless. I’m not being critical, but it doesn’t really make being a consumer any easier when the shiny thing looks and sounds great in the store and then is problematic in your home
Takedown of pricey servers, streamers OCD HiFi guy
Not sure if anyone caught this, but it's quite the take down of some of the very expensive server/streamer stuff out there. It seems logical to me -- especially when he prices out what some of the internal components are -- but this is above my pay grade so I cannot confirm. It's here: https://youtu.be/MMSC9-qQ_K4
Wonder if others agree or disagree with the basic takedown.
Wonder if others agree or disagree with the basic takedown.
142 responses Add your response
Don't see the point in @rman9 or anyone else taking personal potshots at Mike when the guy was just trying to shed light on a rather complex topic like computer/server/streamer/digital audio. You don't have to 100% agree with the guy but at least acknowledge the effort, even if some of the motivation is to sell his services or products. You learn a lot from people who post that stuff that you won't get from your typical brick and mortar dealers who mostly don't know how the black boxes work that they sell or what exactly is in those black boxes. My B&W dealer didn't have the slightest clue what was inside the Innuos Statement he was demoing for me, and was not the slightest bit embarrassed about that lol. My Porsche dealer on the other hand gave me a 2 hour dissertation on the PDK transmission versus the 7 speed manual on the 2023 Carrera T soon to be released, and now most likely if I pull the trigger I will be making a truly informed decision... just wish all dealers of high end products were as professional. |
@hilde45 this topic is probably beaten to death. I couldn't help but post my recent observation on the Innuos ZENith MK3 server. The self professed genius OCD guy was dissing the unit while the new record day guy was peddling the unit on youtube. It's all comedy.. The OCD guy is not only, hard to watch but also the voice.. If I was a surgeon, I would add tone control to the voice coil. |
I mentioned this in his youtube comments and suggested that his performance (on video) of this contradiction might actually be detrimental to his own success. He pushed back, of course saying he was doing just fine, thank you very much. So, myopia hard at work. For me, it makes me wonder how good his judgment is in other areas -- such as in audio. |
| Post removed |
See a recent video, here: https://youtu.be/wUtbVrYDQuo He wants to have it both ways. Everyone else is out to scam you, but he doesn’t because he’s not like everyone else -- they’re all selling but he’s just loves audio and wants you to love your rig. The problem is, that he’s selling too. But rather than make a video explaining the mutual relationship between (some) magazines and (some) companies, his take is, “They’re all out to con you. Don’t trust reviewers.” Doesn’t matter what they write, how carefully they contextualize or justify their claims. It’s all a scam. On the other hand, there are the forums. Oh wait. They’re all narcissists who know nothing. Don’t listen to them. So, who’s left in your corner? Mikey. He’s the only one who cares. He knows quality, he’s been around, he cares about sound. And, ok, he’s selling, too -- but just ignore that. Everyone has to make a living. My take on this guy is that he probably does know quality and he works hard to demonstrate it on his channel, and he’s probably built a very loyal customer base. But his argument jumps the shark, if you will. Why? There are other dealers and reviewers out there who are also honest and know that in the long run, customer loyalty must be earned and not connived. Given the above, IMHO, the video comes across as desperate and swinging wildly. He should probably take it down *for his own self interest.* It’s not going to age well. Here are a few excerpts from his transcript: "i am here to let you know more about the bs that happens in our industry. i know you see that a lot from me but you know what i have no vested interest um tied in and no in cahoots with the magazines nor any other manufacturers i am solo rogue ocd mikey and um i’m here for the people..." |
This ocd guy is amusing at best. He bashes well known top quality components but assures everyone that what he has is the best. For example, the new dac he is promoting has a Bluetooth antenna and he claims this is groundbreaking technology, which is probably the worst interface to use. Then he goes over the remote and claims groundbreaking technology again. Pretty much a Waste of time watching his videos |
Rego - your comments make a lot of sense. I appreciate those that reminded us of the cost of R&D. What if, after testing many parts over months or years, the Asus parts SOUND the best. Should they substitute a higher-cost part for image purposes? We all know the role synergy plays in our hobby. You can buy a hamburger for $2 and one for $35 depending on the chef and the service that accompanies it. Is the cost of the bun meaningful? The taste and atmosphere when you eat it provide the value. We each find our price/value point and it’s so cool when we share our experiences about the process without passing judgement on one another. That make these forums so powerful for me. Thanks for all who shared here. |
Someone who is not a computer guy takes his rudimentary knowledge to produce a homebrew server for $1,500 in a one off production volume that sounds just a good as a $10,000 model from the specialty brands in a $100,000 system. Now that is something I am glad to know. Something to take into consideration, or something to dismiss if I don't end up agreeing. Problem for you, this opinion is an inconvenient contradiction to your premise that we pay for the knowledge and know how, along with low production that makes these uber high priced items worthy of their cost. It's a good take, worthy of consideration. You have your opinion, cool. He has his opinion, cool. I read these forums often and most times end up clicking off because the differences in opinion are handled with character assassination, and snark that take all the fun out of the discussions. As a neutral observer trying to learn, I found your brand of banter lacking when confronted with a simple difference of opinion. |
So for the record, if you go back and watch that Innuos vid, I never mention their name nor show the name as far as I remember. So my intent was to use the imagery for an example but not to burn any certain brand. as a rule I dont do that unless someone from the company has really crossed me in some way.. I can count on one hand the times thats happened. As Far as Taiko extreme I use it in a sentence I think one time and Im referring to the last model I scrutinized which was about a year ago, and wow do people pull the words out of posts that they want to use. I never said "cheap Chinese gaming board" I guess from what I see in society there is a new trend for people to completely make things up as a reason to thwart or libel another, Its nuts. For anyone to even focus on Taiko means you have totally missed my point. Its not an important part of my video. and for the record, its over $30K USD for that piece and my opinion is this is a piece that exists for a buyer whereby the price does not need to have a connection with its physical makeup whatsoever. If the squaking bird had not passed immediate judgement on my message without reason, he would have heard me say the Taiko is the highest quality build there is. Its crazy to me that I said that clearly but mister lynch mob creates a story to stand on and cast hate that is 100% created from vapors in his mind. Thats bad for the world in general. Be more responsible people. I do and have built many servers as well as streamers from R-PI to High perf gaming MOBO with a second MOBO in the same chassis, LPSU , etc. Let me preface that by saying I am not a computer guy at all , never gamed, nor hacked or anything , so to me the fact that I can build a server that sounds soooo good (My homebrew cooked the Laufer by the way since I saw it mentioned earlier in this thread) so I figure someone that does not know crap can guess at what would make a server sound good and do this well, then its got to be easy as it gets to make a great sounding server. Mine cost me $1500 and it sounds better than one $10K piece and multiple lesser pieces Ive had through here. So Ive deemed server is not that big of a deal , therefore no need to spend deep on it . That being said, as Im thinking this through , this result could be totally different if we were putting a server into a 20K rig.... Mine is over $100K (retail price, and NO I did not pay anywhere near that) to over simplify, its like saying the DAC is so good that any digital input sounds glorious. Do not fret however as Ive got a vid coming up where Ill compare servers and l;ets see what happens I’ll also be doing Lpsu’s and audiophile switches. FYI I rarely come to these forums so If you post a question to me here I may not notice Also to the dont take me too seriously "camp" as one fellow said. I actually like that position because people do not see me coming. This is great for competing in this industry. I believe he referred to me misnaming something inside the piece. Thank God that does not affect how good my ears are at tuning systems as well as creating gear. I never claim to know anything more than the next guy. In fact I probably know less. But I make the magic happen sonically and not everyone knows how to do that in a room. In another strange thing I do, I commit to my clients to take them across the finish line , if its now with a complete rig , or if its over the next 10 years as I buy everything back I sold you so you may upgrade. Nobody has policy like I do. This is not a job for me. Visit 11stereo.com and you will understand that there is a different experience than the mainstream within the HiFi Tribe Did I miss anything that anyone would like a direct response to ? My apology if I missed something . all the best.. Mikey |
I’ve been using Amazon Fire tablets for streaming audio for a few years now. My Amazon Fire HD10 and Fire7 sound great with the outboard dacs and headphone amps that I use them with. As such, I see no need to upgrade to a more expensive server, when these inexpensive computers work so well, and also offer many other functions. |
@rego I see your point. I should have titled my post something more neutral, like, "OCD Guy claims to be doing a ’takedown’ of pricey servers." I put my post in a short, headline type style but I was hoping just to generate a conversation with this somewhat hyped phrasing. That’s why my OP also said, "Wonder if others agree or disagree with the basic takedown." But you're right -- I could have put things less tendentiously. Glad to hear your view and your reasons. Maybe he'll reply, but whatever. Peace. |
@hilde45, you are making the assertion 'Takedown'. The Title of this post is " Takedown of pricey servers, streamers " with OCD Guy thrown in ... The title of OCD Guys Rambling Video is " Music Server, Music Streamer, Music Computer ..... Whats the Deal? " Just OCD Guys poor choice of an example ... As I noted in my first post-I Disagree ... Not a Takedown. What I understand is your phraseology echoing OCD Guys examples adds to a rambling rant. The OCD Guy even says "Trust Me". And why would anyone do that if you don't have to? OCD Guy does not use the term Dedicated Audio Streamer and dances around the fact that Dedicated Audio Products are more expensive than a comparable 'High Quality PC". Cost (high cost specifically) is one of your additions. The reason SGM Extreme is expensive is because the product is low volume production of exceptional quality. The reason that ASUS products are expensive and affordable is because of high volume mass production of exceptional quality. Personally I would not turn to OCD Guy for a Review of the SGM Extreme and I do not want to argue with him about any thing at all. @artizen65, I am not making an argument for horsepower, that's just how SGM Extreme designers did it. |
I was ripping and streaming on a core duo with 8 gigs of ram about 16 years ago. So let me see if I get this right. Computer grung is real but no one seems to be addressing it. The most important part of this process is ripping. The reason we used Plextor drives back in the day when they were top notch. @rego you can argue all you want. You don't need that much horse power. |
| Post removed |
@hilde45, Repeating something over and over does not change (or establish) a valid assertion! " But I had never heard that there were cheap ASUS parts inside some of the most expensive of them. This, for me, was revelatory." " But it's pretty clear if someone is charging enormous $$'s and is putting a cheap Chinese gamer board " "I see every audio purchase as part of the larger audio budget that I feel contained by. " The assertion that you are making about the SGM Extreme using ' cheap parts ' begins on shaky ground and falls off fast ( 'revelatory' ). ' cheap Chinese gamer board ' Do you really want to go There ... ? Why ... ??? Many Custom Build Audio Streamers use ASUS Gaming Boards and are not inexpensive (definitely not 'cheap'). The Extreme utilizes a Server Enterprise Class Board apparently (Sage EEB Server). Built for Longevity ... also a design emphasis by Taiko. Motherboard - $ 500 Xeon Scalable x2 - $ 500 - $ 1000 per chip for Gold (Platinum $ 2000) x12 A-Grade ECC DIMMs @ 4 Gig $ 500 (wild guess) Total of around $ 3000 (up to $ 5000 already) @hilde45, do you know what a - Hyper M.2 x16 Card is ... and why it would matter? Custom Passive Cooling Aluminum Case / Copper Shield Proprietary Plywood Uber high cost power supply components Reworked Enterprise OS 24 TB of Enterprise Drives Making everything work / as noted previously Craftsmanship > Your best cost guesstimate here _ < From Taiko website: " Ever heard of DRAM refresh? You should, because it is one of the main reasons why many think fewer and lower speed DIMMs are better for sound quality. " Do you think OCD Guy even bothered to look before (or after) going off in the video ... Do I think an interested AGon participant could craft a Custom Audio Streamer / Server for less money and have a High Performance Playback Component ... yes. (not even closely articulated by OCD Guys rant) SGM Extreme in intended for use as a part of a HiRez Playback System. Overbuilt Custom Electronics is an endearing quality with a tradition in Audio Recording Production ... now Playback as well. |
I have been in this hobby a while. After graduating college in 1980 and replacing my Kenwood receiver and refurbished speakers with a Kenwood integrated amp, Scott Speakers and a Kenwood DD TT, I felt I had a pretty nice stereo system. That was it until 1988. Then I moved up to planar speakers and started my journey into "hifi". I delved into modifications and tweaks for the next 15 years and slowly worked myself into the "high end hifi" or what I called the big boys club. Once into the high dollar equipment, I can say that while mods and tweaks of gear is a fun side to this hobby, the high dollar stuff has the goods when it comes to great sound. I spent the first few months of my recent retirement revamping my stereo system and adding hi res music playback capability which is something that I have wanted to do since about 2011. I have stuck to vinyl playback all of these years and my vinyl rig has never sounded better with my latest turntable, preamp, phono cartridge and phono cable. My CD playback today is outstanding and blows away all of my beliefs about the limitations of Redbook CDs. I am not surprised at all about the current debate and merits of high dollar digital streaming equipment and cables. I watched a video last night about USB cables. I was amused by this guy with some expensive electronic measurement equipment arguing that all USB cables are equal. He showed with his measurements that the only difference in USB cable performance is the length. He showed shorter is better. Well, a lot of people already knew that by listening. His high dollar measurement equipment wasn't needed to tell us that but it is good to know. All of this debate about digital streaming reminds me of the same debate that raged in the 1980's about speaker cables. It's just wire. "If the resistance is low enough then there is no difference," so said the naysayers. Once people figured out how to measure and what to measure, specialized speaker wire became accepted. Same with interconnects and power cables. I believe that as the digital streaming technology matures we will see what matters and what does not. To me, the state of digital streaming today is extremely complicated and confusing. I spent months reading and studying to try and wrap my head around it all. I have a Marantz Home Theater Receiver that can stream music- sound is ok. So why does hi end hi res streaming have to be so complicated? I jumped into music streaming first with a "low cost" solution. That did not work well at all but I had to try because I was a working man and I'm not going to spend my money without getting perceived value in return. And before I took the "low cost streamer path" of course I tried streaming into my DAC with my laptop computer. Keep in mind that a stereo system is a chain. Each link in the chain is important. A good amp paired to poor speakers is not going to shine at its best. A good turntable paired to a weak preamp cannot sound its best. Therefore, an average streamer feeding into a high quality DAC and stereo playback system will sound pretty good but it's limitations will be apparent. That is what I found. With a high quality streamer, I find MQA file playback breathtaking. Hi res files are close behind followed by CD quality. Streaming hi res is outstanding but CD quality streaming is still just a tiny bit less than CD file playback on my system. These differences were not so apparent to me when streaming through my laptop. |
OP, here. Thanks, Mike, for replying to this thread. I enjoy your videos and thought you were posing a legitimate question -- not about whether people have a "right" (funny word) to pay what they want for a piece of gear, but whether others had seen the video and how they assessed the argument you were making. As usual, the thread went in lots of tangential directions, some of them valuable, but I do believe some stayed focused on your central point -- namely, that some gear that (for it’s high price) should *not* be using inexpensive, off the shelf, computer innards. I’m a newbie, but the point boils down to "there’s sawdust in this expensive meatloaf." And of course you’re not talking about kinda expensive meatloaf -- something that is, say, one or two times the price of a decent product. You’re talking about really really expensive stuff. That detail helps push back on all the (to my mind, ineffective) counter arguments about "R&D, overhead, design, research," etc. You surely have a busy life, but if you could find the posts which understand and (civilly) address that claim, it would advance the central point in dispute. If you don’t have time, well, peace. |
Wow, Leave the kids alone and look what happens.. So Im the guy you are talking about and I may as well speak for myself so you may understand me at face value. I started the YT Channel to show regular people how silly and whacky us audiophiles are , to show them the OCD crap that we go through in pursuit of what boils down to perception. People really liked the vids and kept suggesting and giving me moral support and its because I am told nearly every Vid that I in some way helped someone learn, or understand or laugh or feel good in some way that I continue to provide content. This industry normally keeps the people in the dark as its more profitable to make it seem like what we do is rocket science and you are too common to understand it. Because we can keep selling endlessly to someone who does not quite understand. Well this happens to be music , my sacred place and I dont take kindly to people bringing their hustle to music. Its sacrilege, as this is hallowed ground. So this is why I point things out. Mainly to get people to question what something is and learn about it before making judgement . Trust your own ears ... nobody can tell you what good sound is to you for they perceive something different than you do. So I get Im not all prim, shaven and ironed. Its my hint to you that im probably not of the establishment. I am a common man that pays attention and puts my money where my mouth is. My most valued thing in life is integrity. No I dont know it all , I make mistakes, Im fat and unshaven (Blaming Covid for this ) But I am for sure a keeper of the Music. I hold it precious because it is one of the few "Real" things I experience on this planet. So briefly for those that think am just some rube talking smack, I am unlike most of the content providers for HiFi in that: I dont just talk about expensive gear, I buy it and I own it. Im hoping a guy with an over $100K rig may have an opinion that carries more weight than a guy who has never owned it. Why ? because the guy without experience will tell you "Best thing Ive ever heard" whereby youll be hard pressed to hear anything like that from me. So Im credible as a true HiFi afficionado. People reading reviews never ask themselves how much killer gear has this guy ever owned much less heard? Does he even have a hifi rig ?..also I do not get paid by the manufacturers nor given free gear for a review. I wont accept it as it gives me bias immediately. Why would I expose a brand that gives me free stuff or pays me ? Nearly every YT reviewer is given product or paid by the Mfg. YT is their career. not me. In fact I do not take one red penny from YouTube. I do not get paid for clicks and I do not get paid for reviews. I am here to earn your HiFi business by proving I know good sound. My vids are one take with barely any editing on a cel phone, Im not trying to bamboozle you with beautiful video production, but I am sharing with you more real experience and proof than any other HiFi seller. and Im showing you I have world class gear to compare with. By doing this people have been able to trust me enough to buy full HiFi systems when weve never met in person. The channel takes a good amount of time and its not something I must do to survive. My Cable company has been taking care of that for the last 20 years. Currently I consult with HiFi manufacturers insofar as product development. Because I know what audiophiles want in a product and many manufacturers do not. A quick list of crap that will lend cred just so you understand my background . I hate doing this but it seems it may be necessary by the way some people responded to the thread. Ive owned an amplifier manufacturer in California Mark Levinson had LG Electronics hire me to be on his HiFi team as the "marketing expert:" which I had to chuckle at as Im no expert. I have sold cables and HiFi as my only income for the last 23 years. I can and do repair and modify HiFi gear. I design and build speakers and I love to grill and am sort of a foodie. I ride motorcycles and love dogs. Im really no mystery and nothing different than any of you guys. And Lalit, I did dig deeper about Taiko after I posted that vid and I know exactly what’s in it. There are main parts that are off the shelf, like MOBO and then there are some off the shelf parts that are tweaked and a few proprietary power supply pieces. I hear this is the only server that means anything above the sea of "same old shit". So Ill try it eventually ... Ive tried my best to respond to what people were saying , If I missed anything please feel free to ask me or give me any feedback as to what I dont do that you would like to see.. all the best and thanks for watching OCD HiFi Guy ! SSSSEE YA ! |
Seems I have some studying to do beyond reading the posts in this thread. Computer grung is real and measurable. Soundings in Denver about 10 years ago was previewing a music server that if memory serves me correctly Boulder Audio helped them design. Price point at the time was $1500.00 running Microsoft and dBpoweramp for 1tb of storage. Stick in a CD and the system did the rest. So just what is that last 10% worth. |
"Is Laufer even in business?"It was in November 2019 and their website looked the same. At that time, they exhibited at an audio show. They did play music from the Memory Player and I have no idea how much it contributed to the whole experience. However, I will admit that I enjoyed the sound in that room more than in any other room at any of two audio shows in those two or three weeks. I cannot say it was the most natural, most accurate, most whatever, except that it was what I liked the most. I suspect, without any real knowledge, that it was the speakers (The Note). Speaking of "performers being in the room". At the same time, it was the first time I have ever been exposed to that kind of speakers so maybe all of them sound like that. I wonder what the profit margin on those speakers is. |
lalitk, I will never have any issue with whatever price someone wants to charge for something. Want to charge $500 for a cable, or $20,000 for a cable or streamer, I have no issue with that. Now if you use wild or impossible claims to justify that $20K cable, then I see that as a problem. People equate high end audio to luxury goods sales, but no one is under any impression that a Vuitton bag of the same size as a Forever 21 bag will hold more stuff (I reserve judgement on Tumi). There are some that are totally appalled and offended that someone would or even could spend $20K on a cable when people are starving, but I think most are just offended by the ludicrous claims. |
There is never going be any single consensus on what is a fair value of a given product. What I consider of high value (R&D, build quality, proprietary circuits, app interface, features) others may consider them as frivolous or marketing gimmicks. There are folks here who are perfectly happy with raspberry pi’s or Node 2i and others with offerings from Lumin, Auralic and Aurender. A product with dealer / distributor network comes padded with markups for dealer. It’s up to you, to either pay full price or negotiate a deal. One guy pointed out in this thread about OCD Hifi guy own brand (Verastarr) of cables with high price tag. Look at some of the brands he is selling and tell me if you don’t find excessive padding for resellers or as others have pointed out excessive ‘greed’. I am with @arafiq, If you cannot afford it, or don’t see the value, that’s fine. Save your money and buy something else. Fortunately, there are plenty of options to choose from, be happy and enjoy the music! Peace! |
This thread contains a couple different sub-themes. There is a debate over the facts which OCD guy uses to justify his claim that some streaming devices are overpriced. This debate hinges on what is involved, mechanically or in R&D, with these devices. Then there is another debate over how much a manufacturer is justified in charging for a product. Some argue that they can charge whatever they want if customers will pay that. Some see this as fine because of the psychological satisfaction some people get from just buying things they feel good about, even if they don’t really know why they should feel good about it. Others disagree and see this as problematic because customers are being fooled by marketing claims or techno mumbo jumbo. They not getting what they expect (sonic excellence) by paying what they pay. I suppose there’s no single right way to look at it. For my own part, I see every audio purchase as part of the larger audio budget that I feel contained by. If I spend unnecessarily on a product (e.g. because I’ve become convinced by the marketing even though the technology doesn’t make a significant sonic difference), then those are $$s I do not have to spend in another area. Many on this forum has advocated for cables or vibration controls or room treatments that I have not yet acquired. If I spend too much of my budget on a streamer that is overpriced, ultimately that subtracts from what I can spend on other elements of the system which could make a bigger difference. And that reduces *my* overall satisfaction more than the bling factor of a $20k streamer. Just how I see it. |
I have never met anyone that I agreed with everything on every opinion of everything. I just try and find the logic in everyone’s opinion, and correlations with consensus and/or my own subjectivity. OCD HIFI Guy, who apparently had a background in the manufacture of hifi gear, has merely pointed out that it appears to him that some of the margins of profit seem to be disproportionate to costs of doing business. He is reporting on apparent greed and value. He’s not necessarily questioning value to quality of sound ratio to cost. He acknowledges that there may be quality of craftsmanship, for better reliability, ease of maintenance, or pride of ownership that transcends the value to sound ratio, that there might be exclusive research, tooling and manufacturing costs. What’s the problem with that? |
The point is you’re paying for someone’s time, research, knowledge and know-how. Not to forget the opportunity cost as well as the cost of running a business. Actual cost of parts is a small part of the equation. And this sort of thing is not just limited to the audio business. Early adopters are willing to pay more for products that are sold in a niche or emerging market segment. Most audiophiles understand that they are paying a lot for what others might conceive as incremental improvements, or even no improvement if your system is not capable. If you cannot afford it, or don’t see the value, that’s fine. Save your money. But, let’s not disparage innovators and risk takers who are trying to move the needle. And be open to the fact that there’s a lot of experimentation going on in the digital audio world. Some might not bear any fruit, and that’s to be expected. Doesn’t necessarily mean these companies are fleecing unsuspecting customers. That’s the price we pay for progress. |
“.....he is selling you a Ferrari to drive through a gated retirement village at 25MPH”. @djones51, Thanks for the wonderful analogy. If you’re thinking it then you still have time to act. Cause when you get to that retirement village stage, you will regret not buying a Ferrari. Life is too short to be settling for a smartcar 😂 |
Anyone who tells you that you require dual 10 core Xeons with 20 threads to run a server for home audio might not be selling snake oil but he is selling you a Ferrari to drive through a gated retirement village at 25MPH. An i5 Intel with 8 gigs of memory and a 128 M.2 drive in a NUC will run Roons free OS ROCK, keep music files, handle meta data, convolution files and PEQ if wanted and do so without breaking a sweat. |
I pretty much agree with the ocd video. A music streamer/server are computers: period. Most run proprietary operating systems but that doesn’t make them better, and personally, I wouldn’t want a 1 off operating system. These server vendors have some people convinced that you need a lot of hardware to perform a simple, or basic task, like reading a file. Is running a proprietary Linux OS better than running OS X for a simple task for a music server/streamer, I’d say no. It’s not just about reading a file, or a ’lot of hardware’. There’s a lot of processing that goes on in the CPU to play and process hi-res audio files. There’s a reason that companies use different types of computers with varying degrees of chip design, compute, memory, and networking to perform tasks like processing audio and video files and conversions, run machine learning algorithms, do high performance computing in areas such as genomics, weather prediction, etc. Each application requires a different configuration of hardware, software, and operating system. I’m not saying that playing DSD files for example is as complex as running extremely complex algorithms, but the choice of the right architecture and optimized usage is just as important to achieve maximum audio fidelity. Companies that are investing time and resources to optimize sound reproduction deserve to be paid more. Boiling the entire equation down to merely the cost of individual parts shows how ignorant this OCD Hifi guy is. These companies are charging for their research and know-how. You don’t have to buy their products, and it might not be worth to you, but let’s stop with the snake oil accusations. |
Is Laufer even in business? Looks like their website has not been updated in years and still looks like a highschool project. I love the claims of studio use, but no one I knew who did studio work had ever heard of them. The claims made are quite something ... impossible, but quite something none the less. |
For me, in my experience, systems that are assembled with the belief that everything sounds more or less the same, will almost always result in systems that do just that. But as always an open mind is important here, so if anyone is in the GTA Canada and wants to do some comparisons (while maintaining social distancing protocols, of course!) We could try some different servers/streamers on my system, which is very musically resolving, or yours if you would rather. You can bring your server here, or I will bring my Laufer Teknik Memory Player to your place. I think it is very difficult to not hear differences in this context....;-) BUT I am totally open to be proven wrong. Have a great week guys and try to be humble and kind to everyone. |
I pretty much agree with the ocd video. A music streamer/server are computers: period. Most run proprietary operating systems but that doesn’t make them better, and personally, I wouldn’t want a 1 off operating system. These server vendors have some people convinced that you need a lot of hardware to perform a simple, or basic task, like reading a file. Is running a proprietary Linux OS better than running OS X for a simple task for a music server/streamer, I’d say no. For running complicated software and or for large commercial servers, I’d run Ubuntu or another proven Linux over other OS’s. There are quality applications like Audirvana, pure music, and Roon that will run on a small nuc or Mac mini that doesn’t require a large amount of hardware. My Mac mini running Roon as a server uses around 10-12% of the available hardware, and the server is 8 years old. I also don’t buy that a certain machine is built to output a certain way for a certain dac. All computers are built the same way whereas all music has to be read into memory and all output to a device comes from memory. So, the real difference is the program/application that is used to process the data before it’s placed into memory to be sent out to the audio device. Since there are some very good applications to do this task very well that run on simple hardware, what else do you actually need? |
I have Intona 7055-B and Coolgear USB 2.0 high speed isolators. I run them with home brew supplies for the output to keep switching noise out. I have Chord Qutest and Benchmark DAC3 for main usage. Have a DAC2. Also picked up an RME ADI-2 based on a recommendation here. The Chord and Benchmark are almost impossible to tell apart if level matched. Not sure I could reliably. Have had other DACs from friends, some much more costly in system. Can't say any were better. Different, obviously intentionally, but not better. Picked up a Topping E30 to play with. With the isolator it is very good. Gave my son my Node2i. I would say the isolator and Topping is quite a bit superior but that is off memory. |
Hi,
I agree 100% with musicfirst and bigkidz. Listening to different audio products/servers is the key to this hobby. Respectfully I believe enjoying this hobby involves many different opinions. Audiodesign I think what musicfirst is saying is that you need to listen to the different server/streamers and make your own decision on the sound quality rather than hypothetically saying that there will be no difference between the units. Cheers and enjoy your weekend. |
