No actually a sub between the speakers is good.
Here is a more detailed and technical explaination:
Subwoofer between speakers?
After reading through a thread relating to the equipment rack between speakers, I assume that the sub between the speakers is also a no-no?
My speaker stands are 24.5" high, and my sub is 24" high, so I was thinking that the sub cabinet being below the mid-range driver might mitigate the detrimental effects to imaging. But I read a reply in the thread that I alluded to which talked about an amp between the speakers having a negative effect on imaging . . . therefore it stands to reason that a big bulky sub cabinet would be about 20 times worse.
I know that ideally I should experiment with placement . . . this is an extreme near-field listening room, and options are limited. I could get it to the outside of my right channel speaker . . . in theory, would that be better than in between?
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I put two subs between and behind my speakers. It IS all about experimentation, about getting sliders under the sub(s) and moving them as well as adjusting setting on them. It is very very helpful to use REW or some other measurement software as you change one factor at a time. Scan, change a variable, measure, listen. Repeat. For hours. |
Thank you to all. I am going to watch that youtube, but since I cannot get sound out of the speakers on my ten year old desk top and I lack the energy to dig out my head phones at the moment (fence building all day, www.hownottobuildawoodennprivacyfence.com) I am going to watch it tomorrow. Thank you, and I will watch it. |
From my understanding, one sub works well between speakers. 2 subs work well in the corners. I tried placing a sub in the corner of the room and the result was terrible. The bass sounded uneven and smeared. Much better results when it was placed in between the speakers. The key to the integration between the sub and main speakers is to have a seamless and even bass response. In my system, the impact of the sub is not earth shattering and rather subtle, but the improvement is an important one. There’s a slight lift and punch in the low bass and midbass which add to the musical enjoyment. The speakers that are used will also play a part. With some speakers, the sub doesn’t blend well in the system. I only managed to achieve a good integration with select speakers. |
+1 @soix The best place for a sub is where it works best in your room. There is no general rule, at least none that makes sense. Evenness of bass response at the main listening position will vary tremendously from position to position. That’s why many of us use two, three, or four subs to get the most even bass response. Don’t neglect adjusting sub phase, as that makes a large difference in overall bass response when both the mains and the subs are playing. By "large," I mean the worst phase arrangement can give a 30 dB null. (This issue also is reduced in importance with multiple subs.) |
Thanks again for all the helpful replies. What I was intending to ask was not so much on how to maximize my sub's potential, but more along the lines of how not to have my sub's placement/physical presence have a negative effect on the imaging & sound staging of my speakers. @ghdprentice I still haven't watched the youtube yet (in a moment I am heading out into the garage on still another project) but I intend to watch it before I do some listening this evening. |
@immatthewj 👍 it is a big eye opener. |
There are two ways to do this properly. One is subjective by moving the sub around your room and listening to what you think is the best position. The other is objectively by using electroacoustic analysis (i.e. software-defined) by which you can pinpoint the optimal position of your sub. Then, depending on your sub/amp you can dial it in from there. Also, more than one sub will yield better results. |
Little off topic but I find this resource on placement of subs useful:
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/subwoofer-tuning/tuning-multiple-subs |
@ozzy62 Excellent point. It’s all room and system specific. There’s no one “set and forget it” for each system and room. Do what works for you, but I still strongly advocate for two lesser subs than one big sub for music. FWIW. |
I had the same concern when I setup my subs, but thought I'd try having them between the speakers, so one wouldn't be stuck in a corner, while the other was not and in my case, they sound awesome, sitting between the speakers. Having said that, my system has all digital source components (no turntable), so having the subs close to the cabinet where the electronics live doesn't seem to be problematic. |
+1 @soix @mike_in_nc It is so room dependent, that in a way, the question is ill formed. There are room mode calculators -- look up amroc, e.g. -- that can help. But ultimately, rooms have so many idiosyncrasies that after getting some "rules of thumb" to at least have a starting point, it will come down to whether or not you have a trial and error method that is systematic enough to keep you from working on this for the next year. |
@hilde45 ....so one will default to the 'on the knees, outdoor chess' means of sub sites.....corners, wall sites. One will have to apply a certain amount of exertion to attain a 'base level' of response (and Yes, pun intended...). Little tweaks Will follow...yes...😏 Note to nerds: Code a 'ware similar to REW that 'scans' the 'raw space', crunches awhile, and suggests placements for previously 'auditioned' drivers used in the scan.... It will cost whatever, but the audio community will build an off-ramp to your door. ;) Running the app will likely bake your laptop...*L* I'm kidding....but only slightly....;) Our 'spaces' vary so much, and what with what's within them, that 'AI Assistance' seems inevitable...or desirable....*G* "Alexa....Fix my audio issues...." *Alexa explodes* ; |
my question was whether or not a subwoofer between speakers would have a negative effect on imaging & sound staging; if I am reading your answer correctly, you are saying it is room dependent.
I have some comments on the video, but I spent another tough day in the garage & I am awfully tired right now. Briefly I would say that while it was interesting, I think that home theater systems & music only systems have different desired effects from their subs. However, with that typed, I realize that the principles (localization, standing waves, etc.) are probably the same. I found the discussion of the subject to be complex, reminding me that I am not doing a good job of integrating into the 21st century. (Good thing I probably won’t have to deal with it a whole lot longer.) One thing I was able to grasp a rudimentary understanding of is WHY two subs are important. And NOT for the reasons I previously would have thought--music or HT. A couple of other things I learned, my near field listening room is not sub suitable, and, my sub is probably obsolete. (It is a M&K I bought in ’94 after I was introduced to the wonders of Dolby Pro Logic. It was actually my first venture into ’better’ audio equipment.) I just did a 180 in my near field listening room, and although I like some aspects of the rearrangement better than before, I lost a lot of what I had been getting out of my sub. There are three or four other things I want to try with the speakers & the sub, but I am starting to think I may wind up removing it from the system. My near field listening room has a couple advantages from the previous living room location . . .I enjoy the isolation from distractions, and after my beloved Rat Terrier died last year I over compensated for the loss by adopting THREE dogs, and two of them were Staffordshire Terrier (aka Pit Bull) puppies, and although at a year old they are turning out to strike me as rather lovable, I could throw them further than I trust them (& I couldn’t throw either one of those Tasmanian Devils very far at all), so the near field room it is. Depending upon who outlives who, I may or may not ever be back in the living room, which was far from an ideal room, but even with the distractions and lack of autonomy, I do find that I miss the flexibility. Oh well, Ramble On. Thank you for posting that video; I enjoyed it, and I may refer back to it.
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@immatthewj - I have my dual opposed firing sub facing crossways (30 degrees) in my room, between and to the left side of my standmounts. Since I’ve installed the quadratic diffusers, I’ve unplugged the sub and rarely use it. |
I understood your question. I will tell you that I have moved and measured my subs in virtually all positions around my room. They are currently between my speakers. The reason they wound up there was precisely because they (a) sounded best, tonally there and (b) had a positive effect on imaging & sound staging. (Seen here in a recent shootout):
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Not all subs are created equal and not all can correctly integrate. Unless you have speakers that can get to 30Hz and not screw up 300Hz doing it, subs add a realism out of all proportion to the added Hz. As a composer friend once said upon hearing my system "Those little speakers aren’t putting out all that gorgeous bass?!?!?!?!?" ... "Every other subwoofer I’ve heard just boomed." |
OP Respect for your adoptions. We always have a pair… acquired one, train for a year, then second. No doubt you have your hands full. It is hard enough to train and domesticate one dog at a time… three is got to be beyond difficult… I hope you don’t have to work and have professional training help.
Yes, the wave principles of subs are the same in HT and audio.
G |
@ieales Okay if you say so. Deep bass frequencies in recorded music are between 40 and 50 Hz. The lowest note in a rock band is 42.5 Hz My speakers spec or at least one set. Drivers: Sensitivity: 90dB (2.83V/1m) Impedance: 4 Ohms Frequency Response: |
32 foot organ pipe is 16.4Hz The head displacement 'whhomph' on a kick drum is about ½Hz in a rock band. Harp, contrabassoon, piano about 28Hz Tuba about 30Hz Large spaces have sub harmonics. Reproducing them transports one to the venue. Sorry to hear about the 2x woofers. Multiple woofers are seldom done right and suffer badly due to panel interference and multiple asynchronous reflections. I’m guessing they are ported. Too bad. Much harder to integrate with subs. |
@immatthewj hey dug out an old sub, planted it center in my room set, phase, volume and my low pass filter and viola. In your quest and posing the questions you made me rethink my setup and helped to make it better. Thank you! |
so you went back to the sub & you like it? When you say the "center in my room" do you mean between your speakers? Anyway, glad to hear that worked out for you. I was still experimenting with placement of mine . . . and then . . . I started a house project that involved me shutting down the breakers for my system . . . and . . . the house project has lasted longer than I expected it to. BUT, as I take a break, I am just about to finish the electrical portion, & when I turn the breakers on, if sparks don’t fly, I will be doing another audio/sub experiment this evening. the two puppies are from the same litter and their DNA says (if it’s not a scam) that they are both 37% Boxer; the sister is 37% Pit Bull & her brother is 25% Bulldog & 12% Pit. They are the trouble makers. While I was watching the youtube you posted with headphones on, I looked down, & the female had the headphone cord in her mouth, & she looked up at me with those sweet soft eyes like, "You don’t mind if I chew this up, do you?" My wife picked those two. The one I had wanted to make the 500 mile round trip for was a five year old Beagle/Shepherd mix. In his picture the shelter had posted on their site, he had the biggest grin that won me over. He is one sweet mild mannered even tempered dog (with the most beautiful copper colored eyes), and I often say out loud, "Jack, if all my dogs acted like you, I would be a happy man." Anyway . . . ramble on. |
@immatthewj yes center between my speakers. Liked it okay but not 100% sure. |
I run several 2-channel systems and all but one of them has at least one sub. Whether a sub will sound good or even be needed in your particular system is totally dependent on your room acoustics, as many on this thread have said. Most two-way bookshelf speakers need a little help in the bottom end - the trick is just to augment the low notes without getting bloated or boomy bass. What sounds good to your ears is what's right, whether that's with or without a sub. As with so many other things associated with this hobby/affliction, experimentation is half the fun and can pay off big-time. |
Why do people still post drivel like this?
This is wrong on so many levels, it's hard to know where to begin. But even if a note is played at 42.5hz, in an enclosed space there will be harmonics snd room effects providing location, scale snd depth far below that level. An excellent way to demo a high quality sub is with recordings of human voices in a large space. A church, for example. Listen first without the subs, then again with the subs. The subs will reveal the space the vocalist sings from and the audience being sung to. So it is immediately apparent that even human voices benefit from sub 30hz capability. Then we get into different genres of music. If you are willing to have a system that censors anything below 40hz that is your choice. But personally i enjoy modern music which often has real power below 40hz, or the 'fear factor' as it is widely recognised. Genres like deep house, trip hop, drum and bass and hip hop benefit from a system that retains real power down as low as 16hz. If you only listen to music from the previous millennia you may make a judgement that this zone is not important to you. But to deny that it exists is nuts.
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Subwoofer placement is a complicated issue. I never advise using one sub. Two subs would ideally be placed in the corners with digital correction of the group delay. Without digital correction the subs are better off between the speakers against the wall with all speakers and subwoofers on the same radius from the listening position. This assumes that all the drivers are in phase with each other which may or may not be true. What you have within reason between the speakers does not affect the imaging at all. Some people are fooled by their visual perceptions. Just don't part a bus between your speakers. |
On the subject of the op
Obviously every room presents it’s own opportunities and limitations. This is just what i found in mine as we installed four subwoofers. In a nutshell, what mijostyn said. My take: dont overcomplicate, you have already done the hard work in locating your speakers. Your subwoofers, always in multiples of two, simply go alongside, with at least a large hand span between sub and main speakers, and basically on the same radius as your main speakers, just ever so slightly behind so they are a tiny bit further from your ear than the main speakers. You can adjust this by ear. Locating Inside or outside your main speakers may be decided by domestic considerations. But i tried both, and massively preferred having the subs outside of the speakers. When they were between the speakers, it sounded as though i was listening to the main speakers through the subwoofers- that I’d created a river of sound from the subs that hit me first and to some extent blotted the sound of my main speakers.
So my advice, go with a minimum of two subs, alongside, outside and slightly behind your mains. Use main speakers with strong low end and then roll your subs in below 40hz. Ideally feed them direct from your pre amp. Then remove everything that rattles from your listening room, and use blu-tac to damp vibrating wall art😊 |