Still looking for speakers in the 10-20,000 range

Well, in my system, the Triton Refs  are all positives.  Deep articulate and tuneful bass that goes all the way down.  You can rattle the fillings in your teeth if so inclined.  Mids and highs are very smooth and they image like mini-monitors.  With 93.5db efficiency, you can drive them with any decent amp.  I use a 150wpc McIntosh solid state amp for mine but I have heard them with 35 watt tube amps as well.  The speakers are very easy to listen to, no fatigue, and I know I honestly couldn't have gotten more speaker for the 8500.00 selling price.  It's a win, win situation.

Whoops I have to read more carefully, Sorry-
The GE Reference has been mentioned, but not much discussion of its positives or negatives

Interesting that the Goldenear Reference gets no mention in the discussion.
Full Range Class A rating in Stereophile, above many of those being considered in this discussion.
Are the strong reviews from a couple of “elder statesmen of audio” -
Tony Cordesman and John Atkinson off the mark?

If you close to NY, NJ   let me know, Bache Audio

I’m not current on the state of the art in loudspeakers in that price range, simply because I stopped looking years ago after finding something better than what I had been looking for. That said, JUST TODAY, I heard the (relatively) new Aerial 7T loudspeakers. I DON’T know how they would compare to any of your other fine candidates. I DO know that IF I were looking for new speakers these would be getting an audition in my house. They’re said to be 93 dB efficient and retail for ~10K.

Here’s what I said:

Aerial 7T loudspeakers

From my perspective white speakers would be highly undesirable. I'm a traditional wood finish guy. Just one opinion of course.

Folks,

Sneaking my own question in to this thread (as it's not worth it's own thread):

I'm considering purchasing a pair of really nice Joseph Audio Perspective speakers that are in a high quality gloss white.  It would be something of a try them out and sell if I don't want to keep them.

I'm wondering: would the white finish be any detriment to selling them?  I really have no idea if white speakers would put off buyers.   Thanks.

I would if I was there.  I do wish I could go.  I bet it will be a  blast. Also go check out my favorite IEM's in Empire Ears with Effect Audio cables.  I have their Phantom, which is the first CIEM (custom in ear monitor) that I can honestly call reference quality. They are just incredible.

@ ctsooner

Nice.  I'll have to check the Vandersteen room out!

At Axponia Vandersteen will be showing my Quatro's with the new subs that will have his famous built in 11 band EQ.  This could be a game changer for most as you can dial in the bass for any room.  I have a difficult room to say the least and this EQ has done a GREAT job smoothing out the bass. All I needed was an sound level meter that I downloaded free on my iPhone.  It worked just as good as the expensive one that the dealer used.  Got the same readings, so that was cool.  

ctsooner makes a very good point about subs. It is better IMHO to get a speaker with good bass designed and engineered into it..from the start. Much harder to integrate external sub later. Vandersteen does this early design well, and even their external subs too. To be honest some other brands do bass integration, but not many do so well. I hear the Wilson Duettes, a stand mount that had very tight controlled bass with it’s integrated equalizer.

I used to own Ensemble Elysia in the past..it was an amazing mini monitor with passive radiator at the back. The stand was made like outer space shape. I sold it a couple of years ago because I started my own business. Later after the business was pretty stable, I bought a pair of Sonus Faber Toy Tower..well..I like the vocal..about few months back, I asked Ralph Karsten about which speakers that would be perfect for my Atma-sphere MA-1..I gave him 3 choices and he told me to go ahead with Audiokinesis. Now every evening, I will sit still and drown myself into this musical bliss..I think everybody could check this brand out..it's not expensive but it truly is amazing speakers..

Reference 3a..reflector. it's the best speaker they have and with tubes...second to none. 9500.00..great price.

I've heard most of the speakers listed here including Magico, Kef, Martin Logan, Legacy, Wilsons, Sonas Faber, etc.  The stand out for me is Bob Carver's new ALS speakers. Difficult to dial in but once you do your due diligence, the sound is incredible...full extension down to 20 Hz and up to 30+ KHz, incredibly huge sound stage with monitor like imaging when called for, dynamic as hell, and detail like planars.  You can tune the sound to your room with its adjustable crossover. I think it's around $18.5 K with active subwoofer.

martin-logan...don't look back..just enjoy.

Classic Audio Lousspeakers with the field coil option. Unbelievable sound. My search is over. 

I agree with alucard19's suggestion.

I auditioned the Kanta and the Paradigm Persona speakers and the Persona has the same type of clarity in the mids and highs as the Focal (maybe better), but is more neutral top to bottom, with excellent, integrated, well controlled bass.

Have you listened to the Paradigm Persona 5F a very clear and crisp sounding speaker that is good if you like to hear all of the nuances of your music.

Ozzy, I totally agree with you.  I personally don't get the voicing myself.  

I have not found integrating subs and main speakers a hard thing to do. Just remember the REL advice: cross over low, and volume up. What is not so easy is integrating them into the room. Here a combination of multiple subs and dsp room eq such as the Antimode 8033 works well. See Floyd Toole on the subject: https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/history-of-multi-sub-sfm

Have you considered the Golden Ear Triton Reference?
Full-range Class A rated in Stereophile, and less than $10K.

headphonedreams.

I understand that bass out of 6.5 speaker would be limited, but with the Kanta 2’s the bass was boomy or "honky". That character carried up into the upper bass / lower midrange.
Even with subs and electronic crossovers I am concerned that the "honk" would still be audible with rock music.

ozzy

Guys, the problem you run with adding subs in any system is integration of the subs.  It's VERY VERY hard to get subs that share the same sound as the main speaker.  This is one thing that Vandersteen was able to do.  I know many of you have subs and love them etc... and that's cool. I"m not trying to rain on your parade.  I you go read how Vandersteen does the crossover adn how his amp is able to pick up the same sonic character as the main amps, then you will understand what I'm saying.  I too felt the Focal's bass was good, but very limited, especially in this price range.  Many think I'm married to Vandy's, but it's MY money and I want what I personally like best, so I went with the Quatro's as I didn't' hear anything under 20k (and more) that I liked nearly as much overall.  I play a ton of old rock and there is plenty of bass, plus it's tunable as I've said before. That's so important in most rooms.  It's not the digital Turing either, that does negatively affect the sound if you listen closely.  I felt the set up was easy. The dealer came over to do that part.  The PRoac would also be my second choice.  

ozzy,

I'm not one to ask about subwoofers.  I've only just bought some JL subs myself (110E) that I'm going to try and integrate with my Thiel speakers.  I'm a total newbie with subs.

@ozzy They didn't play rock when I heard the Kanta 2 but from what I have read they have really good bass but not very loud or extremely deep. They only have 6.5" woofers and can probably struggle with rock in a large room.

Was it the quality or the lack of bass that you didn't like?
(just curious)

Forget Magico. Forget Magico completely. For that size room and your electronics I can’t recommend the Vandersteen Quatro enough. They excel with Audio Research amplifiers because they only need to produce 100hz and above for the Vandersteen speaker. The bass is driven by dual 200 watt sub-woofer amplifiers, which allow the mid range in the system to really thrive. I’ve had several of the other speakers you mention and will tell you that the Quatro’s will smoke anything you will put in front of them at that price point. Magico is no good with your Audio Research gear. Magico speakers need a really strong ultra bandwidth amp that has a really high damp factor to control the bass in that speaker. Tube amps don’t have that at all. An Ayre MXR 20 amp, Boulder Amp, Constellation Audio, Spectral, Naim Nap 500 would all be good options for the Magico but not an Audio Research tube amp. I don’t care what the sales guy says it’s not a good choice.

My second recommendation is the ProAc Response D 48 R. ProAc voices their speakers with amplifiers from Naim and Audio Research. That speaker is $12,000 and sounds like a $40,000 giant killer. It’s a 4 ohm load and your ARC amp will love it! I have a pair and can’t say enough about it. The Vandersteen is built with a better fit and finish than the ProAc and it’s made in America.  Vandersteen also has a new sub coming out that will allow you to further tune the bass into the room and really let the mid range shine.  I've 

1. Magnepan 20.7’s
2. Vandersteen Quattro’s Wood CT

Cheers 

I like the first two suggestions by Johnnyb63 and tomic 601....

prof,

What are your thoughts If I bi-amp the Focal Kanta 2 with F-113 subs?

ozzy

ozzy,

I was also disappointed by the bass of the Focal Kanta 2 when I auditioned them.  They were in a good room, well out from the wall, with room treatment.   Yet I found the bass to have a over-ripe, quality that made it disconnected from the rest of the frequency spectrum (the Focals having a very "fast" and precise sounding midrange/top frequencies).

Saturday I listened to the new Focal Kanta 2. The dealer claimed he was using $85,000 amps.
I liked the way they looked and the soundstage and midrange was good. But, I was disappointed in the bass quality. I played some rock music and the woofers became boomy and distorted. 
So, IMHO the Focal Kanta 2 will need subs.

ozzy

Steve59,

I've also got a Hegel amp (and their HD30 DAC) and am now looking to upgrade to a pair of speakers that do better justice to the upstream components as well as my ears (my AV 123 Rockets have worn out their welcome). I would imagine that the Revel Salon2 would be a fantastic match based on the reviews I've read. And your idea of getting them used so you can swap them out if desired without too much of a loss is a perfect way to go. I've been thinking along those same lines.

I'd love to know your own impression of having the Salon2s in your system with your Hegel gear... and any other speaker-listening insights you might have along those lines.

After Easter I'm going to start a serious "find my new speakers" quest which will involve hours and hours of hitting various dealers in driving distance of Washington DC, and the listening experience of others can help guide what I seek out to listen to.

I've also heard the Dynaudio Contour 60s powered by the Hegel 360 and it was very impressive. But I'm also really eager to hear what the new Magico A3s can do... when the heck will they start to appear?

Also, based on the rave-reviews I'm really curious how those Tekton Double Impacts (SEs?) sound... the catch being that my listening room is the main family room and so the speaker choice, while not having to be exotically gorgeous, needs to also be attractive in the eyes of my spouse (and I'm thinking the Tektons, for all their sonic praise, sadly won't pass the look-nice-in-the-family-room test).

-Dave

@steve59 , did you ever listen to the Paradigm Persona or Focal Kanta that I recommended you?

I'm double dipping. I posted my interest in the same price range as you and since I just bought my Hegel H360 and whatever I hear will still have to sound good 'in my room' I went ahead and bought a used pair of Revel Salon2's locally that I should be able to flip if they fail to deliver.
I still think for the music you listen to a pair of Vienna Acoustics orSonus Faber should be on your short list. I went to a local dealer to audition the Dyna contour 60 and he basically refused to sell them to me citing 'Alon Wolf is coming out with a new $10k speaker that will be worth waiting for' then added he didn't want me coming back to him down the road angry that he didn't warn me. 
 VA speakers measure like garbage so they are likely more room/amp dependent, but the Beethoven's I let go because they didn't go loud enough have been hard to replace. I'll make you a deal, buy a used pair of 'The Music' and if you don't fall in love and you got them at the low end of your price i'll buy them off you. OH $hit I already bought the S2's, well just the same we could swap or something what state do you live in?

Had the Treo's and love them. Sold them to a member of the board and got the Quatro's.  Best value in high end for my money.  Lot's of good choices depending on what OP likes.

My short list in this price range would include the Vandersteen Treo CT, Quatro CT, and Vivid B1. Another interesting option is used Thiel CS2.4 or, better, CS3.7. Tom Thiel is engineering updated crossovers for "legacy" Thiels and these will be sold thru' coherentsourceservice.com. I've long thought that the main thing separating Thiels from the very best was inattention to the passive parts. I'm going to test my speculation by upgrading the XOs on my CS2.4SE (which is already a very accomplished speaker).

I love my Wilson Audio WattPuppy 7 speakers (driven by Audio Research GS150 tube amplifier and Audio Research preamplifier and a DCS player stack).

I have a small listening room (<300 square feet), and I listen to classical music, rock, and jazz in that order. I have a different front-end for streaming.

I love Wilson speakers because they are great at resolving different instruments, including voice. BTW - I read audio reviews that confuse "low-level resolution with high-level resolution." The former means poor resolution, the latter means great resolution. 

In any event, I am looking to change. I have considered a Harbeth, primarily because it was recommended by Rick Rubin, the music producer in an ad (probably a stupid reason).

Please help me - should I purchase a Wilson Sabrina, Wilson Yvette, Vandersteen (non-active), Elac Andante (recently hyped in the press) or some other speaker in the $10-20K range?

My apologies for adding my need to the OP's thread, but the question is related. I can get Yvettes for 18K with trade-in, and the Sabrina at about 10K with a trade-in. I value clinical resolution over musicality.

Thanks - Gerry

@johnnyb53 - Excellent idea.  I have heard them, at a show, and they were extremely impressive.  You need high cielings and some space around them to breathe, but the Carver Amazing Line Source is one of those rare speakers that just seems to do everything right. 

I looked at a couple of the speakers mentioned above, mainly the revel salons and studios. I stayed with Usher. I used the Usher Mini Dancer II’s and just bought the UsherX-Towers. Great speakers, and their BE-10 and BE-20 speakers are also great especially for the money.

Joseph Audio Perspectives or Chario Sovrans with 2 REL S5 SHO subs, or 212SE if budget allows.  Whatever you choose figure a way to do stereo subs no matter what.

Another vote for Tekton Design Ulfberht at $12K.  I currently own there $3300 Double Impacts, but I'm upgrading to the Ulfberhts and should have them in 6 weeks.  If they are anything like the Double Impacts they should provide sound quality value on par with a much more expensive speaker.  Ask anyone whose compared the Double Impacts to $20k speakers that they switched from.  They are truly giant killers.

Good luck with your decision. 

I haven’t heard them, but if I were in the market for sub-$20K speakers, I’d try to find a way to audition the Bob Carver Amazing Line Source speakers. They’re $18,500/pair including a $3K SubRosa subwoofer.

Underwood Hi-Fi is an authorized Bob Carver dealer and includes free shipping in the continental U.S.

Also some enthusiastic reviews:
Robert Harley, TAS
and separate review by
Robert E. Greene, TAS

The Yamaha NS5000s are wonderful sounding speakers.Worth importing if you can't get them locally.Plenty of the others mentioned here are great hi fi speakers but do not communicate the essence of the music like the NS5000s.

good post.  It does all come down to what flavor you like in your system.  How will the speaker match up with the components you are using.  To me, that and the room are the two most overlooked things.  Lot's of great choices, so go listen and let us know what you are hearing.

Great conversation going. As a recent shopper in the same price range, my biggest single takeaway after hearing several speakers is that there really are NO bad speakers at the $10k-$20k per pair price point. Not as long as you're sticking with the larger, more well known firms anyway. I cant speak for the tiny builders as I don't have any experience with them, with the exception of Ryan, who's speakers I think sound great.

So, does a B&W 803 D3 sound better than a KEF Ref 3 or than a Focal Sopra 2? Only you can decide that, but they are all lovely speakers. Just go listen to them. No offense to those who are touting one manufacturer or model over another, but these speakers are all so good that other peoples' opinions of them mean almost nothing to me. Perhaps if the speaker was universally hated I'd listen to and heed the reviews, but none of these speakers are.

FWIW, I purchased the Sopra 2.

I like Vandersteen and Tannoy. Look for a pair of used Tannoy Westminsters.

Why not be different and give Kendrick Sound a call in Tokyo for vintage  superior  speakers.

I would get a KEF Blade2 in that price range. You need to get a used pair or demo but I have seen then at $15K and up. I am going to demo a KEF Blade2 at a dealer in Newport Beach, CA soon and he has demo pairs of Ref 5 and Blade2 that he is looking to sell. I should say I am demoing amps for the Blades since I know I will buy either a Ref 3/5 or Blade2 depending on the room.

Just reading TAS. The new Magico M3 are highlighted. They finally went to a carbon fiber cabinet. Valin says it is the best cabinet design he has heard. You can get a pair for about $75,000

Alternatively you could get Wilson Beseech speakers made with carbon fiber cabinets, having improving them for 20 years plus. Some on Agon from 5K and up.

It is the big speaker in the British Library Sound Archive, where they digitize their existing analogue collection of millions of titles before they are gone for forever. Their workhorse is the Harbeth M30.1, and they also use the little P3ESR.