Still looking for a new Moving Coil Cartridge

@elliottbnewcombjr Apologies,  I didn't see your question. 

The Decca Maroon was refurbished by John Wright and a line contact stylus fitted.

when you say rebuilt Decca Maroon, does that mean an upgraded Stylus from the standard Spherical?

I like the sound of Goldring carts. I have an Eroica XL MC cart on my P3 in the basement, I enjoy it. My Main system is the Ethos. I am looking to upgrade that to the New Ethos Se cart.

@newfzx7,

It certainly was under my radar.  I got a couple dozen PM singing the praise of the AT MM cartridges, especially the VM 540 and their more expensive siblings.   I purchased a mounted AT direct from AT and only had to slide the cartridge back a bit to set the proper overhang.  I was truly up a running in less than 10 minutes.  I can’t believe how great this cartridge sounds, it is just what my Rock records needed.  It was like putting premium gas in my old 360 Duster back in the day!

I just read through this thread and was surprised to see that you ended up with a 540ML. As I was going through I kept thinking that's what you need.

I'm sure this cart gets ignored just because of its price. I can enjoy all my records with it, with others carts there were albums that I would not listen to, including with an MP-500 that I currently have on my SL1200gr.

Mostly because I have a very excellent MC phono pre built into my Mac C2500 tube preamp.  I decided to go with a MM phono cartridge and purchased an AT VM540 cartridge.  It came in around $300 on a factory mounted headshell.  My Rock records really sing now and I couldn’t be happier.  Thank you and everyone else that contributed to this thread. 

@stereo5 why MC in the first place? MC requires to invest a lot of $$ in SUT, phono-pre etc, and uses higher track force g settings (2g MC vs 1g MM).

if you have $$ to spend, check Phasemation PP-200 MC cart

@stereo5 

until it got ruined by a curious little boy.

 

Back in the late 80's another curious 6 year old boy trashed my Micro Seiki LC-80w MC cart.  

His Mom said at the time "I'm not surprised he wanted to play with it..... he has one just like it at home".

@knownothing ,   Thank you very much for the tip on Elusive Disc.  I haven't been to that site in years, forgot about them.  Not a big fan of the Ortofon 2M Black but the AT cartridges look promising.

If you are now considering forking over for a new Dynavector 20X2, that opens up a whole different price range of cartridges.  You should look at the Hana ML (on sale now everywhere for $960), the Ortofon 2M Black LVB as mentioned previously, Clearaudio Maestro V2 Wood, and the Audio Technica AT33Sa or AT-ART7 cartridges.  elusive DISC currently has a number of cartridges at discount.

"MC carts have fundamental problem of coil wire' affecting moving part resonance etc. that’s why MC carts typically require higher tracking pressure, which is no good for diamond needle etc."  I am not a big fan of low cost MC cartridges, either, but the hypothesis expressed here requires some evidential support.  Otherwise, it strikes me as yet another case of connecting a cause with an effect, without any real basis for the connection.  This is an all too common practice in our hobby. Not to mention the fact that "higher tracking pressure" is not necessarily a correlate of increased stylus (or LP) wear; you want the VTF to be high enough to prevent mistracking, but not higher, for a given stylus shape.

Thank you for your vigilance, dogberry. 

@hce1 

Watch out. You maybe know that Grado cartridges are MI, not MM, but the analog police may come for you.

Near me, come listen, bring yours 07062

Thank you, but I'm in Nova Scotia. I send my cartridges for re-tips to a zipcode near yours, but that's as close as I get!

MC carts have fundamental problem of coil wire' affecting moving part resonance etc. that’s why MC carts typically require higher tracking pressure, which is no good for diamond needle etc. try to find M Audio Technica AT-ML170 for heavier on bass content cart, or AT-ML180 for Jazz/Classical music, and if you're lucky, you will discover huge improvement in overall “air-ness” and accuracy of sound! Other MM cart to try is AT-150MLX.

+1 for the Grado

If you haven’t listened in a while to a MM cartridge in your system, I encourage you to give the Grado a spin. I currently have the Hana ML mounted on my TT. I like it, but it demands a good deal more of my phono pre than the Grado to which I am comparing it. Unless you have a really well designed and implemented phono section, you may find the Grado more satisfying than the Hana. Bear in mind, I’ve always preferred MM to MC, so my bias is showing. I’m sorry I can’t make useful comparative statements about the Grado and Hana because the Hana has only about 20 hours on it right now. I can say that potentiated by a PS Audio Stellar phono pre the Hana is warmer and more coherent, two features of MM that strongly appeal to me, than I expected. Very promising.

Lively discussion on this one! The Hana cartridges are great. I had an ML and really enjoyed it. I’ve since upgraded a couple times but the shibata stylus in the SL will be a good match for your listening habits and is somewhat forgiving regarding noise. Another great option would, as others have said, be an Ortofon MM, perhaps the LVB. This is a little more than you were speaking of but I’d a great match to that table.

My Hana SH has blown me away more than once on many of my older rock albums.  I have maybe 100 hrs on it now and I think it took about 10-20 albums to come into its fullest potential.  

Tonearm and set up are a big factor. I used a high end stylus gauge to set it at 2g and then went though a couple of test records to get some anti skate and other adjustments corrected.  If someone does not have proper tools then I think best to have it done by a pro.

I do find the Hana SH amazing! Very solid imaging with fine detail, no perceptible coloration and not favoring or flavoring any particular type of music.  Of course bad recordings sound... bad.

For me this opens the imaginary door to wondering how much better something like the Umami Red is...  I'm tempted!

MP-500 

@stereo5 

I am an MC fan as well. I would not recommend the grado offerings, except that you can replace the stylus. However, I have experience with replacing the arm/stylus of a Benz micro mc (two of them) thru a vendor in New York. He does a great job. $300-400. Yes, the sound is slightly different, but excellent nonetheless. Feel free to email me to get the info.

Your Dynavector is better than the recommended grado, particularly with a new rebuild. Have you tried the Dynavector 10x5, mc high output? It's very good with rock. In your price range.

 

Finally, 2juki (Hong Kong) on eBay offers great deals on cartridges and accepts returns if the cartridge arrives damaged. He's been dealing in high end cartridges for 20 years, at least. Very credible. I have bought two cartridges (10x5 & Audio Technica ART9). FWIW, the ART9 is excellent but the same price a the dv20x

 

Goodluck

I’ve owned a couple of Dynavectors in the distant past and have recently spent time with the 10X5 II. They IMO are nice but not special, if that makes sense.

Like the OP, I’ve got a Technics G that I dearly love. Mine is set up with a Funk Firm 5mm Achromat, the KAB arm damper and A/T Headshell wires on the factory headshell. Setup with a Vinyl Source Arc Protractor and a first generation Fozgometer. All records are ultrasonically cleaned.

Im currently running a low output Grado Reference3 wood body and couldn’t be happier. At $1500, it’s out of the OP’s comfort zone. Before I spent $1200 for another Dynavector, I’d seriously look at a Grado Master3 which comes in at $1K.

The Grado Timbre series comes in both high and low output- either 4.7 mV or 1 mV. Both load at 47k, but not every phono stage can run 50-55 dB gain at 47k loading. If yours can, the low output is the ticket. If not, you want high output.

The Grados can also be replaced or upgraded at roughly 33% off when worn or damaged which is pretty strong compared to the competition (except Soundsmith).

MI cartridges have lower moving mass than either MM or MC.

I listen to about 70% classic rock, 25% classical and 5% jazz and the Grado excels with all of them.

Tonight’s spins so far:

The Beatles- Abbey Road MoFi

Jethro Tull- Songs From The Wood 40th Anniversary 

On deck next:

David Bowie- Ziggy Stardust

 

 

I'm very satisfied with my Umami Red.

I hope my comment about using a spherical stylus because it’s safest for LPs was taken as facetious. That was the intent.

I agree with @lewm.

If the owner cannot set up a cartridge correctly, then they shouldn't try to set it up at all.  MicroLine, Shibata, Line Contact and similar stylus profiles are MUCH more desirable than spherical stylus.  Spherical stylus wear very fast and can do irreparable damage to records before their wear gets discovered.  That also results in a higher cost of maintenance since most MC carts require a full cartridge replacement when a stylus is shot.  

To place a fly into the ointment, consider this:

- Fine line contact styli have FAR greater surface contact area versus conical styli. When balanced for equal VTF, this means the fine line will be far less likely to cause groove damage. 
- A fine line contact stylus has a greater angle of attack on groove perturbations. This heightens the risk of groove damage vs conical styli but is heavily influenced by the deflection of the groove wall under the stylus. A record with higher quantities of plasticizers will deflect more and therefore be more at risk from damage from high angles of attack from the stylus. This issue has not been conclusively studied in the scientific literature, but we intend to do so starting with heavy use on lacquers.
 

My experience and my gut says that groove damage is primarily a function of tonearm horizontal forces being out of control and very secondarily by excessive VTF and dirty styli. At 33rpm and at innermost grooves only, conical styli *MIGHT* retain a small advantage but otherwise fine line styli are safer. Again, I cannot yet prove this due to lack of data on deflection/angle of attack.
 

Get your tonearm under control and you’ll have less to worry about (and sound better too!)

With 28,500 LPs and 60 years experience, I prefer the Dynavector 20X2 L cartridge. It works great with my modified SME IV, with the Zesto Allesso SUT as well as EAR 864 and EAR 912. It is so highly valued by friends and myself because it permits us to enjoy ALL our LPs, from 1948 monos to current production. I had higher end cartridges and they made newer (post direct to disc era) LPs sound fantastic but not as good with early stereo and mono (I should purchase a mono cartridge though as that is better suited to mono 1950s LPs grooves). My best friends also own the Denon 103 in both plastic and remodeled ceramic body versions. Both great choices.

This is the indisputable truth that so many don’t want to hear or believe. I have spent somewhere north of 50K on various cartridges and have a few set up professionally by Brian Walsh (whom I can not recommend enough). The hard truth is that the exotic cartridges set up optimally will not convey audio nirvana upon your lap and ears. Yes, there are incremental improvements, but only with optimal pressings which are few and far between. The sweet spot for me is with the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze and the Benz Glider SL. I have two of each just gathering dust and I am presently wearing out my Lyra Etna SL and Van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius XGW. When they are worn out I will "revert" to the Ortofon Bronze and Glider with zero regrets.

This is just my take, I don’t claim it is right DESPITE my strong introductory proclamation. It is my truth, not yours. A very short comment on pressings-it is amazing that nothing can be assumed. I have purchased expensive boxed re-issues that were only "good" and small indy pressings that are amazing.

Neither you nor I nor most of the rest of us, regardless of experience, have the capacity to account for a zenith error; there are no readily available tools to use for that purpose. I have a feeling there soon will be, from either Wally Tools or elsewhere. And yes, no zenith error with a spherical stylus. At the CAF, the person at the Wally Tools kiosk (not JR, who was taking a break at that moment) told me they will take your cartridge, measure for zenith error (and every other possible parameter), and sell you a shim to correct for the zenith error. He showed me an example of a shim, but it didn’t make sense to me how the shim he had on hand would do the job. In any case, Wally do understand the problem it seems. Unfortunately, there current solution costs $500, which pays for a thorough assessment of the cartridge, not just the zenith shim.

I think I may order the new version of my broken Dynavector.  Although I hate to throw $1200.00 into it, it doesn’t seem like the cheaper cartridges will do what I want.  I was really hoping to get out of this for $600 to $700 bucks.   I will have to check with member “Kron” as he sells new Dynavector cartridges at a small discount.  

 

dogberry

There are some great cartridges $700. or below

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=mc+cartridge&_sacat=0&Type=Moving%2520Coil%2520%2528MC%2529&_dcat=64619&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_udlo=250&_udhi=700&_sop=16&_pgn=2

here’s my AT33....for a great price these days, returns accepted

Microlinear on Boron, great separation, tight channel balance for superior imaging.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122981575515?epid=27032781048&hash=item1ca245eb5b%3Ag%3AcoEAAOSw9T9iRAvE&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwBuz7HXAPjwo7y1PnHJp4p62tAXI9hINNB8lBF108SrA91aOEpNijhQ2tfMjPuemg7G6Tg7SCgLHavNg8hdjtGVfuKTp4abDqy7gxGs%2FihsBJNgIAEsxn0mXgHK2JSxDGfqB07yBbIU5RUajMbJWf%2FsOIMCVDI3Qfeh2%2Bg1Zp6mhZFJKAgPjTgwX77bo%2FSRVwXH9Uk%2BQl6Iud9jLaFpBisDNuUkMLV4v5Z8hq%2BwMMNaCpDdH%2B29cXR6EiiyzukOFWg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6jE-sL6Yg&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=1000

I’ve listened to many other cartridges in my system, mine and friends. It’s my first MC, I just made a lucky choice. Others here on the forum think highly of it.

Many people prefer elliptical, typically on aluminum, new Denon’s are aplenty, here’s a Benz Micro

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275395465794?hash=item401ed95242%3Ag%3Ad70AAOSwoMli2hxj&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4LXhsTBSVMcwp%2F5hDO5iaN551Syb4U895lGpJ1tKE6qh%2FtmseGVBYeiBrrmvXkauVaMlkUlFCB%2BzThnkRO64jSFeqiTgA4L4vTOWKRi5Rw7pYd77nJ25E6l%2BMSA%2BqBhXdy2YPVS85mztASO0rG%2BCBg5S2YGgTqFiq0P%2FwlYv1bxBMBaj%2BAx90%2FQHqTfI703iAyeEZll9wu3UjcT48LDu969J7GDMVjHJy%2BZ9%2FUC3QQAWh0Mala2kh2Uoy03sQEnIXiklqb66wD9yziwfxKWvna2yeXSJDrpSbNV8%2BddkS1vb%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6jE-sL6Yg&LH_BIN=1&LH_ItemCondition=1000

Near me, come listen, bring yours 07062

@elliottbnewcombjr  I have a method where my Wife goes out, I then go for it in her Kitchen. I clear all work surfaces in the  and protect them with News Paper, I have a Pump Up Spray Bottle for Distilled Water Jet Nozzle Rinsing.

Lab Sponges and Micro Fibre Camera Lens Cloths are great for excess water removal.

Apart from her OCD on placement of items, I am not usually captured in the act🤣

pindac

The tank and brushes is supposed to be filled with the cleaning fluid, the brushes doing the cleaning.

I scrub aggressively with the baby scalp brush, and the tank is just distilled water for rinse, then light cloth dry holding the LP over the tank (so excess distilled water drips back down into the tank. Then on to the drying rack, they dry faster that way, off to the next batch of 10. 

I position myself centered between the speakers, for quality listening while cleaning, add a bit of joy to the task. A folding table with a plastic sheet would work for other setups.

lewm

the idea of an advanced stylus being MISALIGNED can cause more damage than a spherical/conical Stylus. Thus they consider spherical as ’safest’.

Properly aligned, advanced is LESS groove wear, and LESS stylus wear, and better sound.

amateur/novices without the simple tools and skills to properly align advanced stylus do run a higher risk of misalignment.

Why would a spherical stylus be safer for LPs? Maybe in part because zenith error is not an issue. Safer yet is to leave your valuable LPs on the shelf. Don’t play them at all! This is getting ridiculous.

I cannot argue with the use of a proper mono cartridge, but that is not what the OP was asking about.

And if the avoidance of surface noise is the prime consideration, then proper record cleaning is the sine qua non.

As for satisfying MC sound with a $600 price limit, I doubt if there is a good answer. Any MC at that price is probably (here goes!) inferior to an MM/MI of the same price. I admit I have not dabbled in cheap MC cartridges, but I have gone up into the realms of 3-4k MC cartridges to find competition for good MI cartridges, and 5k before I was convinced I had found something superior.

@elliottbnewcombjr I am totally on board with the Manual Cleaning Method for looking after a LP. I don't use the owned US Tank the Neil Antin manual method has superseded the use of this.

Relating to the Hana SL, this is a Cart' I have not been attracted to, my own one has been sitting idling from non-use for quite a few years, that does not mean it is an unacceptable Cart', I just haven't been able to become Wed to it.  

Unfortunately, with your budget, you’re not going to get much. You really need a Hana Umami Red MC cartridge before you will get anything listenable. That is the best bargain in hifi but still about $3500 ish.

Mono? Sure, ideally. But my Mayajima Zero mono is not as good, on mono, as my higher end Koetsu stereo. My higher end stereo Grado is better yet. Close, yes - but inferior refinement.

 

fleschler

"28,500 lps .... I should buy a mono cartridge"

Of course you should, I cannot believe you don't have one.

..........................................

I read/learned here the true advantages of a real mono, dipped my toe in the water, bought a Grado Mono, $100. made the big difference that was described here. I demonstrate the difference for all my friends, they end up getting a Mono cartridge themselves.

Next I bought an AT33 MC Mono body with a broken cantilever, and had Steve at VAS rebuild with Advanced Stylus Shape on Boron. Wonderful.

Two friends bought Mono cartridges Steve had ready to go. Luckily we live close enough to visit the shop and listen to various cartridges on Steve's system. Hearing them helps you commit to the higher cost,

Jim went Advanced on aluminum +/- $600. Another friend went Advanced stylus on boron, +/- $700. Mine was less as I provided the AT33 MC Mono body I bought via Aledo/Yahoo for $38. Shipping cost more than the body, just under $100. total.

Cameras: "Get Thee Out of Auto".

Mono LPs: "Get Thee a Mono Cartridge"!

Anyone near enough to me Plainfield, NJ 07062, come on by, have a listen. Or call Steve at VAS, Cliffwood, NJ 07721, go to his shop, what a dizzying treat that is, and meet his son Ray.

btw, VPI is in the same building as VAS.

noromance

when you say rebuilt Decca Maroon, does that mean an upgraded Stylus from the standard Spherical?

..................................................

Decca Maroon from Factory:

" $950*

The London (Decca) Maroon cartridge is the same as the Super Gold, and the Gold, except for its SHPERICAL stylus tip. This results in playback that is slightly less detailed than the more costly London (Decca)s. But this cartridge is a favorite of collectors of costly LPs because the spherical stylus profile is the safest possible configuration that has the least potential to damage the grooves, in case of improper setup, or accidental maladjustment. The more modest price can allow it to fit logically into many budget systems."

That's listening to the 'safest'.

....................................................

Proper alignment of advanced Stylus Shapes (i.e. Line Contact as all the high end Decca's use) IS very important, but when done right the result is superior as Decca themselves state.

 

Hana ML. Above your target price, but worth the leap!

My preference in that price range would be an AT OC9XML.  It's very detailed, neutral and has very good dynamics and slam.  I have had a lot of experience with AT cartridges.  PROPERLY SET UP, the cartridge is quite good.  

If surface noise is the issue, clean the records rather than buy a new cartridge!

Hello, You were asking about surface noise or to have a cartridge that produces very little. The issue is that is usually caused by the record or more likely a poor cartridge setup. SRA/VTA (not the same thing) can be very forgiving. This is why there are tonearms with VTA towers to adjust on the fly. Also, anti- skate isn’t always exact unless you have the right tools to set it up. Azimuth is only setup electronically. Yes you can make sure you cartridge or headshell is level but the problem is that more times than not it is setup wrong. A Fozgometer 2 cost along with the AP record is $450. So what’s left? The most important thing which is zenith or your cartridge being moved left or right in the headshell. You should not just eyeball the cantilever on a lined mirror. The stylus can be off by upto 5 degrees from the manufacture. The reason why I am bringing this up is to tell you to skip a Shibata Stylus. It is very difficult to get it setup right. The Hana SL, Dynavecktor 10x5 mk 2 and a few others have this stylus. I would try to find a Fine Line or  Geiger (Ortofon) stylus that mimics a cutter. 
I would go with the Ortofon 2m Bronze. It has a fine line stylus. ( much easier to set up over Shibata) you get silver over copper instead of just copper in the 2m blue or 2m red. Plus, the bronze have a touch of warmth which is great for rock/ pop. Plus, When someone destroys the cantilever you can just replace the stylus. Moving Magnet will work better for you for now. I truly believe this is right for you and you will save some money to put towards something else. I hope this helps. 

Dear @stereo5  : Your best option should be to get a Dynavector again. Obviously you can't go wrong with and today that model comes with up-dates over the one you have.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Stereo5, Nagaoka, Goldring, Grace, AT, etc, will make your rock records sing, in part depending upon your tonearm, phono stage, amplifiers, and speakers. The world is full of good cartridges. Hana can do it too, but MC cartridges in your budget tend to a thin, bleached sound IMO.

There have been a lot of different cartridge recommendations but no one is telling me they will make my rock records sing.  Does anyone have first hand experience in the cartridges recommended with rock music?  

What does "make my rock records sing" mean to you?  Perhaps nobody has addressed that because it's not really descriptive.  I can't think of any cartridges I've owned that didn't play rock music as well as any other music.  I listen to rock probably 70% of the time.

Hello, All of these choices seem great for different reasons. I think I agree with getting the Hana SL. Also, Sometimes Hana has an upgrade deal in case you want to move up to the ML later on. For rock I would keep at the 2.0 gram weight/ VTF for rock/pop. If you have the kids, pets, or cleaning person coming too close to your tt then remove the head shell after you are finished listening. I put my stylus guard on my Hana in case the cat gets curious. Music Direct is where I bought my Hana. I might get a second headshell so you can swap out. Also, I would buy the 7mm Funk Firm record mat. It sounds great. I think MD sells all of this with free returns in 60 days. I hope this helped. 

With 28,500 LPs and 60 years experience, I prefer the Dynavector 20X2 L cartridge. It works great with my modified SME IV, with the Zesto Allesso SUT as well as EAR 864 and EAR 912. It is so highly valued by friends and myself because it permits us to enjoy ALL our LPs, from 1948 monos to current production. I had higher end cartridges and they made newer (post direct to disc era) LPs sound fantastic but not as good with early stereo and mono (I should purchase a mono cartridge though as that is better suited to mono 1950s LPs grooves). My best friends also own the Denon 103 in both plastic and remodeled ceramic body versions. Both great choices.

Bigkidz I think the OP is upgrading from DL 103 to Hana SL. I both have the DL and SL. Both are excellent.

I have an Ortofon Winfield and a Benz LPS (my favorite)...both excellent

Forget all the suggestions above and buy the Denon DL-103 cartridge.  Then get the wood body for it and you are done.  We own the Gold Bug cartridge and Denon makes that also.  For the price of the DL-103 and the combination with the wood body you would be hard pressed to match the sound quality no matter what you buy at any price.

Happy Listening.