I have read a lot about speakers "disappearing" so that one can't tell from where the sound is emanating. But, what about all the stereo tunes where the recordiing engineer intentionally pans the music to come from one side or the other? Can the speakers be made to "disappear" in that situation? Or, is it just the nature of the particular recording?
It is dependent on the recording. But first, for the music to disappear, you really have to take the pains to find the best spot for them. Then you have to use a tape measure and make sure that they are equi-distant from back and side walls. Try to get them within 1/8 of an inch precision when you measure from walls. It takes days sometimes. But you will be rewarded. Even if the music is intentionally panned, on a properly recorded music, it would be "free from the speakers" and appear behind and to the side of the speaker. But there are a few not-as-nicely-recorded discs, where the instrument/music refuses to leave the speaker. So, it is completely dependent on the particular recording.
This can happen when you’ve got very good precise imaging and depth, in between and outside the speakers, and if the recording engineer has done it that way. Play the imaging and depth tracks on this setup cd, it will tell you how your system fairs. Tracks 10 11 12
@milpai ... thanks. That’s what I’ve suspected. I’ve done the whole measuring thing and have my speakers equidistant (front, back and sides) to within about 1/4". That’s about as good as it’s gonna get. The speakers do "disappear" for the most part, but there are those records where it’s just obvious as to the location of the music.
@kosst_amojan, To each his own. I like the symmetry. Fortunately or unfortunately in my system, even a 1/2 inch difference is audible. Hence I make sure that I place the speakers the way I want. Maybe it is not absolutely required, but hey, when you have the ability and affinity to do it, why not dial in to get the best out of your system.
@milpai ... I most definitely agree with you. In my 10x10x8 tiny man-cave, it’s critical to get the measurements on both sides of the room as close to each other as possible.
rlb61 OP234 posts03-24-2018 12:28pm@georgehifi ... thanks. I looked for "DJ 37 Sampler" instead of "Vol. 1." Unfortunately, it’s a digital download only and I’m a CD dinosaur.
I’m sure you can download it on this computer your on, then burn it to disc?
I'd have to think the better ones ears are at localizing/pinpointing a sound source, the more difficult it becomes for the sound source to "disappear". The lessor the total number of speakers, the easier it is to detect any particular ones location. And of course the recording, the room/environment, the particular type/design of speakers and their placement certainly play a role.
I can't speak for ALL speakers but for every pair I've had over the past 30+ years, which coincides with when i started paying attention to such matters, placement counts very much in contributing to the disappearing act. With my current speakers a 1/16 difference in the toe in makes a big difference. Totally agree with Milpai. Cabinet enertness also counts so i agree with kosst as well.
I think you may be confusing the speaker's disappearing with imaging.
You want the speakers to disappear. That is, you don't want to be aware that you have 2 separate sound sources. You DO want to hear the location of the recorded instruments in the sound field. The two are mutually exclusive.
And it should be effortless, with no mental processing or strain, it should be an illusion that does not require you to suspend disbelief.
Good room acoustics are half of this equation. The other half is the speakers. The more neutral the speakers, the more they "stop sounding like speakers" and sound like music.
Though VERY few achieve it, correctly siting the loudspeakers / coupling them to the room proves pivotal to the overall sound. Imaging, of course, but all facets of the sonic presentation.
Like focusing a lens, it’s either perfectly right or it’s wrong. In fact, I believe the effort spent on loudspeaker placement far more important than money spent in the chase to upgrade from good components to great components or the myriad tweaks folks here debate. You hear continuous, though not linear improvement as you come closer and closer to the ideal loudspeaker position. That’s the biggest reason so many modest systems clearly and easily best many exorbitant systems.
If a given recording is panned fairly hard left and right, then most of the instruments will appear to be coming from the general location in which the left and right speakers are situated. But this is really coincidental.
Disappearing essentially means non-localizable. With a full classical orchestra, the first violins should (normally) equally occupy a swathe of the half-circle in front of you that starts outside the left speaker and continues, with equal volume/intensity, to somewhere inside the left speaker.
To make a generalization, the size of your midrange drivers has quite a bit to do with it. I liked the tone that came from the single 10" drivers on my Zu Omens, but a cone that big will never "disappear." I could always close my eyes and know that the good tone I was hearing came from those two drivers in my room.
My B&Ws, by contrast, have double 5" midrange drivers; on good recordings, I close my eyes and perceive musicians playing instruments in space, not speakers pushing soundwaves from two points in my room.
I listen to and have this effect every day regardless of recording or music genre thanks to "The Art of Rational Speaker Placement". My website - myspeakersetup.com for articles and more info.
Nothing scientific here. I put my Advents where the speaker cable reached. They disappear relative to distance back I am. One advantage of a electric wheelchair, precise location of the Sweetspot.
@rb61- here’s basic speaker placement steps. start with 3ft from your wall, move forward until you reach the desired bass. Place your L/R speaker 6ft apart. Your listening chair about 6-8ft away creating a triangle. Make small incremental changes until you have the bass you desire and the main musician is front and center from your listening area. Once dialed in you will have a wall of sound and your speakers will disappear. Remember you cannot fix a bad recording.
@bluesy41 ... funny you should mention that method. I was on the Cardas site and came upon his method for speaker placement. It's similar to yours. So, I have each speaker 3' from the side wall, 3' from the back wall, and about 6.5' apart. After measuring, my room is 11'(L)x9'(W)x8'(H). Thank goodness for a laser tape measure. I now have a solid center image and cannot locate sound coming out of either speaker on many recordings. Of course, that also depends on the recording and the engineer's panning preference. All in all, things seem to be working OK, but likely it will remain a work in progress.
Keep in mind that every recording has a different "Recorded Code". So you play a few recordings and the soundstage is fine to you, and there's that next recording that doesn't do so well. It's not that the recording is bad. It's simply that you need to make your adjustments to tune in that code. The more you make your system variable the easier it will be to play any recording.
The easiest way is to get a pair of Martin Logans or other ESL or Planar speaker (I haven’t tried the other ESLs or Planars but I’m assuming they can do this). Mine are not positioned symmetrically within the room or within 1/16th of an inch of their ideal position. I just start the music and the sound appears between, behind and outside the speakers with no indication that the speakers are where the music is coming from. They do need some space from the side and back walls, though. It’s a lot harder to do with box speakers.
I first heard this effect when I bought a pair of Apogee Slant 6s years ago. I could stand between them and it would not sound like the music was coming from the speakers.
@georgehifi Hi, can you pls advise if the "audiophile" test albums are very helpful in testing a system's capabilities and help with setup? I came across these two on HDtracks and was wondering if they're worth buying:
The Chesky one I mentioned was the only one I’ve come across that centred on getting imagining and depth right with your speaker positioning. Let me say right now though if you have all your audio gear on racks in between your speakers, say goodbye to your depth of image. The best is nothing between the speakers and as back as far as you can, a speaker guru Neville Thiele (rip) told me this, who with his mate Richard Small invented the Thiele and Small T/S speaker parameters , and I’ve never looked back. http://www.content-technology.com/peopleasia/?p=355
All things equal, the electronics also make a big difference. Same speakers, music/source, room, cables, and now throw in a good class A SET tube amplifier in the mix and the speakers will just melt in the room. A good tube preamp will also paint a very different picture of the music between and around the speakers.
Speakers 'disappearing' is what you want and where you need to be. Sure, if the guitar is on the right, in front (or behind) the speaker, thats where its going to come from. I remember the first time I achieved it and its a combination of speaker placement, a good hifi, cables and electricity, a good recording, good room acoustics, a bit of reading, tweaking and understanding. But, that's the beauty of the hobby.
I have often added devices that make me think I hear performers in my listening room, but then at a later time thing I hear a further improvement. As I have said recently I have found that two of my 16 Zilplexs were not on the center line between my speakers. Previously I had found that one was about a quarter of an inch lower on the left side and the sound seemed to come more from that side and when I corrected it, the image was better.
But correcting the two misplaced Zilplexs had much more impact. In conjunction with my new Tripoint Thor Elite, the image just opened up giving me a sense of being in the room of the recording and hearing the decay of sounds and having three dimensional information. This was especially true of some vinyl recordings but not initially true on my DSD music server recordings. That difference has since closed.
The last four years have seen a great improvement in the feeling that I was at the recording event. I must say that this is a wondrous but expensive event. There is nothing like hearing Thelonious Monk in my listening room while I was in my Stressless chair. The opening of the sound stage in front of you is worth the effort.
Thanks for the welcome! Glad to see your RoomTuning!
When I see topics about making speakers disappear, and soundstaging, I get curious to see how many folks are using RoomTune. Collecting equipment is fun, but it's even more fun to get down to the business of tuning in our systems and recordings. Nothing quite like the hobby of tuning.
I have found that the openness of your electronics, your speakers and room acoustics are all factors regarding your speakers being able to disappear. I have a simple Michael Green Audio system using Roomtunes for acoustical tuning of the room, which is not symmetrical. I can tune for a focused or expansive soundstage. My speakers disappear when I'm listening near field, mid field or far field and the soundstage extends outside the speaker positions. If you want you can get info on this approach at http://tuneland.techno-zone.net.
The two biggest factors in whether a speaker images well are how inert the cabinet is and the space around it.
I’ve heard speakers from the "let the cabinet resonate" school do excellent disappearing acts.
In fact I once had the Shun Mook Bella Voce speakers, a paradigm of thinner walled, incorporate speaker resonance approach, and few speakers I’ve heard soundstaged and "disappeared" like those ones.
Guitars or voices etc hard panned to one speaker would still "float" behind or around the speaker as if it weren’t coming from that speaker.
The Harbeths I had did a pretty good job of disappearing as well. Not as well as my Thiels, but still impressive.
I could never get my speakers to image properly. No matter what I did. That includes many different audio equipment or different speakers large or small. Until I got into OBs (open baffle speakers) Now the speakers completelydisappear. The only drawback is that in order to get proper bass, you will need large speakers. Good for an audio room, but not so great for a living room I'm afraid.
Some of that is "fake" stereo. Actually multi-track mono recordings they put out in stereo to try and cash in. I think there's at least one famous Beatles recording like that.
But even then, there's a difference between hearing the instruments coincide with the speakers and hearing the speakers themselves as unique sound sources in your space.
i think with good placementand gear, and room acoustics, ie, rugs and things, you should definitely have a phantom center image. but expecting every recording to go beyond the speakers' width is a tough ask, i think its very recording dependent.
Precise placement of speakers down to 1/4” only works if your own ears are totally symmetrical. Most of us have ears and eyes where one side is slightly favored by your brain and that’s why you have the balance control. Also, I have compared two CD players in my system where the same CD is presented slightly differently by each as far as imaging goes which I did not expect. Experimentation is your friend.
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