I have read a lot about speakers "disappearing" so that one can't tell from where the sound is emanating. But, what about all the stereo tunes where the recordiing engineer intentionally pans the music to come from one side or the other? Can the speakers be made to "disappear" in that situation? Or, is it just the nature of the particular recording?
I am suprised to read where many responders recommended placing your speakers equi-distant from the side walls and the front wall. You said you found the Cardas room setup recommendations , which suggest that you should never have the same measurements from the side wall as you have from the front wall . While speakers 8ft apart and sitting 8ft from them might be ideal your room might dictate something else.
What does you speaker manufacture recommend ?
I have moved my speakers all over the place and just when I thought I had the perfect spot I make a change somewhere in my system and have to re-adjust them again , though now it's just playing with toe-in.
Is the Chesky DJ 37 sampler & test disc available on vinyl or a CD ?
I have read a lot about speakers "disappearing" so that one can't tell from where the sound is emanating. But, what about all the stereo tunes where the recordiing engineer intentionally pans the music to come from one side or the other? Can the speakers be made to "disappear" in that situation? Or, is it just the nature of the particular recording?
Yes, even with panning, the speakers can still 'disappear;.
Even if the music itself is being panned, it can still sound as if it is not emanating from the speakers. There can still be a soundstage created by the speakers, in which the music is being panned within.
@georgehifi - I downloaded the Chesky DJ37 sampler and setup test disc from HDTracks.com. Thanks much for the recommendation.
Useful CD for setup of the room. Be careful though, that you don't let it go passed track 27 as all the next tracks are for techs and bench testing only. Pierre Varney discs suit Is even far better again, but more for bench testing, and very expensive, if you can find a set
@georgehifi - I downloaded the Chesky DJ37 sampler and setup test disc from HDTracks.com. Thanks much for the recommendation.
My system passed the track 10 - "Left-Right Imaging" and track 11 - "Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording" tests with flying colors, and to a lesser degree it passed the track 12 - "Acoustic Soundstage" test. After running the tests, I realize I’m a lot closer to where I want to be but still have some tweaking to do.
Having said that, when I play my usual music, my speaker’s do not "disappear" and the soundstage isn’t as wide or deep as I’d like. I believe that is due to the lack of depth reproduction because my four-level 48x20" rack sits between and only slight behind my speakers. I could possibly remedy that by moving my rack towards the back of a side wall and placing my power amp near the front wall between the speakers. My listening room is relatively small (13.5’x11.5’x8’) so I’m somewhat space constrained.
On a side note, I just ordered a PS Audio DirectStream DAC (they have a sale on), and I’m auditioning the LTA ZOTL40 Reference amplifier. The LTA amp sounds so good in my system. But before I do anything, I want to hear what the DSD does to the SQ and soundstage with the LTA amp and go from there.
This has been a very informative thread and I found it at just the right time for me!
all excellent responses and information- YES- the real soundstage while recording or live is much larger than our living rooms, that's why moving speakers APART further, dramatically increases the effect. my speakers are 28' apart and if I could put them 40 feet apart, I would. we did tests at my relative's house out in his back yard, with a high-powered solid state rig. first off, I replaced the speaker wire with the largest diameter I could find, bougth a big spool of it at Radio Shack. cut it in half, and put half that spool on each speaker side- for maximum length. then we put the speakers at their furthest distance that wire would allow. WOW. the biggest soundstage from a home stereo I ever heard and saw in my life. it was like a concert. amazing, and impressive.
#2, yes get rid of anything between the speakers- but I'll take that one step further, simply RAISE the speakers up over everything, using wall shelves specially built to the footprint of your speakers, in each corner of the listening room. presto- nothing between speakers anymore, other than maybe pictures flat against the wall, or a clock. again- dramatic improvement in soundstage, in this case- DEPTH is increased to a high degree. it makes drums on a rock band recording sound like they are set up 15 feet away outside your house.
Hi Corelli and Drewster, Great to see some Tunees on Audiogon.
Those reading this thread should think about how big a recorded stage really is. They're a lot bigger than your typical High End Audio system playback suggest.
I remember working with the Stereophile and TAS reviewers, introducing them to the bigger stage event. For about 3 years, back in the 90's, I was like the big stage missionary on call :)
The high end part of the hobby got weird there for a few years, but it's quickly getting back on track.
Most speakers will disappear better if you: 1. Pull them well out from the rear wall 1- 2mts. and at least 1mt from the side walls 2. Reduce toe in, so you can just see the inner side of the speakers from your listening position. 3: The biggie: get rid of all the image and depth sapping racks, equipment, and anything else from in between your speakers, put them on the side or behind you, this will open up a whole new world of image and depth for you, more than anything else. Neville Thiel rip (from Thiel an Small speaker design fame) told me this ages ago and he was so correct. That’s when you go to HiFi Shows the demo’s that have the best image and depth are the ones with nothing between the speakers, because they know.
I've found that any and all speakers will image, and create a soundstage, from the most expensive high end you can afford, to the cheapest junk taken out of an old 1950's radio. what will be lacking is the frequency range response, the better speakers will go higher and lower in frequency, than the cheap ones. as far as the imaging and disappearing act, it still occurs if the amp has that capability.
Achieving the disappearing act is a combination of all 3 things: speaker design, your room, and placement. If you have a speaker with an identifiable coloration, like a hot tweeter or a cabinet resonance, then the speakers will never disappear. Your brain will identify that coloration as part of the speaker and not the music. Same thing with early reflections. If you have a reflective surface on one side, and books on the other side, your room will be unbalanced, and good imaging will be difficult.
That's one reason why I generally dislike exposed speaker drivers in speakers. When I see precisely what is generating the sound, my mind struggles to not "see" the sound coming from them. E.g. I hear drum cymbals and think "well, that's a nice tweeter." Speakers with grills on always do a much better job of seeming independent of the music happening around them.
I have also very often listened with a light over my listening sofa, but lights off over the speakers, which also helps the magic of musicians appearing in front of me, without distraction.
For similar reasons I covered my home theater speakers with black velvet so they completely disappear from view with the lights out. Only seeing the projected image and not the speakers helps the mind map the sound on to the image better in my experience.
Interestingly enough, I've also found a similar effect at my local drive in movie theater (yes we still have one!). The soundtrack is piped through the car stereo system. But I don't see any speakers, and in the dark we are just sitting in the car, hearing sound and seeing the giant picture. And yet our minds effortlessly map the sound in the car as coming from the giant screen hundreds of feet away!
I remember also playing with the subjective aspect of imaging when I was listening to my small Thiel 02 speakers. Those old speakers came with a pair of low-rise wire stands, which simply raised them a few inches off the floor, but angled them up towards the seated listener. When looking at the speakers the soundstage tended to seem low, hovering above the ground in the plain of the speakers. But I closed my eyes and simply imagined I was now listening to a pair of tall floor standing speakers. Amazingly enough I could "hear" the images of the singer and musicians slowly rise up until it seemed to be projected from a floor standing speaker.
So with all these different experiences I've always paid lots of attention to how seemingly peripheral elements affect the listening experience.
1. Pull them well out from the rear wall. 2. Get closer to nearfield listening (7 feet or closer) 3. Spread them wider apart (provided they have decent dispersion to keep center fill). 4. Reduce toe in, hence angle them more straight forward. Toeing out tends to make for larger image sizes, with a less "tight to the speakers" sound, more spaciousness and warmer tone.
my speakers don't physically disappear, they are up too high on a shelf, and are too big and heavy. today's thieves prefer light, modern, high tech stuff to steal, preferably the otherwise worthless, useless stuff made in China. hahaha. having said that, my speakers are jammed into the upper corners of my listening room, not angled inwards and right against the wall and ceiling. and they sound great and stereo image like a mutha. every time one of my friends comes over, and angles them inward, they soundstage deflates dramatically. less bloom and stability. and that's all I have to say about that...(smirk...)
Pulling speakers further out into the room is the single best improvement in placement one can make. Bass reinforcement be damned!
Showrooms are particularly bad in this regard. Almost always they have the boxes jammed back, partly to avoid punters tripping over them, and partly, I suspect, in case a spouse ventures in with the potential buyer.
Frequently your speakers will disappear when you leave your doors unlocked.
Now that I got that out of my system, I have a very asymmetrical room and the width of my soundstage was very variable with different recordings. My system performed well with the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc Vol. 2 (love that deep bass track); but not every disc or LP sounded as good. On a whim I ordered The IsoTek Ultimate System Set-Up Disc, from Music Direct if I recall. This is the only disc I’ve found that has a series of tracks that first guide one to get the channels balanced, then optimize the width of the soundstage, then the depth, then the three dimensional realism. It made a big difference in my system in my room, not just refining my speaker and listening chair replacement; but rearranging furniture and objects in the room.
Disclaimer: not in anyway affiliated. I have posted this in other threads as relevant. If you've read it before, bear with me.
With proper setup and good components, speakers and a good recording you should be able to get a wall of great sound. With Maggie's I get a huge wall of sound that is so life like and utterly amazing.
How do you find them once they disappear, and where do they go? I certainly don't want to get up in the middle of the night and trip over a speaker that reappears...
Keep in mind that even with the best speakers, placement, and recording, the speakers will "disappear" only in a listening sweet spot likely not to envelop more than 1-3 listening positions.
I had a pair of Martin Logans for a while. They imaged very well when sitting with my head still, back straight, in one place on my couch. If I moved or stood up, it sounded like a bag was put over my head.
Since I could not strap myself in that position, I traded them for a pair of Dynaudio speakers that had a beautiful tone and could withstand severe volumes. Trade-offs!
I have a pair of Martin/Logan SL-3's and first off have to bring them well out from the rear wall as the actually project backwards quite a bit and much ofof the audio experience will be lost totally. Living in a small one bedroom apartment I find near field listening to offer the best results. First offI am able to get fantastic results playing at lower volume settings than typically required. Plus I can close my eyes and the whole audio experience I find to be much fuller and better than otherwise. The bass response I so much better close up. It greatly lessens the need for much of the tweaks required for a typical audio system when floor, ceiling and wall reflections-all those things requiring tweeks unnecessary. Obviously it makes for a smaller area for the listener. It is not a good system for multible listeners-more for a single, or possibly two listeners at a time. But how much better the overall audio experience becomes. Plus living in an apartment, not having to play my system as loud as would otherwise be required helps with the neighbors. Anyway, I find that a close listening experience-near field listening is much better, as well as easier to set up as the alternative. I have read that David Wilson enjoys near field listening in his own home audio system. If it means setting up my system to entirely take over my living room so be it. In other words, my living room is mostly taken ovr by a relatively large audio system. Obviously I am a single man. Too bad there are not more female audiophiles. I also think of Art Dudley whose wife allows him to take over an entire large room of his home for his own audio system. If there were more true audiophiles around who understand their priorities.
If I am aware of music coming out of a box, I feel like I have a system that is a failure. Ironic that Michael Green posted. I purchased a pair of his rev60(?) speakers years ago. I thought it crazy in the manual he suggested bringing the speakers half way out into the room and so far apart. But each time I moved the speaker out further and further to that location the magic got better and better. This was the single biggest audio epiphany for me--ever! Thanks Michael.
Michael hit the nail....I listened to wailing speakers and 100 WPC + from 1975 when I was 13 years old, until around 2001. then I got a beat up single ended pentode stereo amp for $10 on a lark, fixed it, and WOW- what a reality check. my high powered solid state amps have all been sold, or sit gathering dust, including my Pioneer SX-1250. you only need 10 watts per channel, if that. I’d still fire up a big solid state rig outside if I was having a huge outdoor party. but for precise listening and holography, the single ended tube amp is the tool that opens up great listening experiences. then you don’t just listen to the music, you feel, see, and WATCH the music, like watching a movie- the way the sound pops out of thin air, from all these different places, left-right-middle, and high, and low. also close, and far, and in the middle distance. all over the place. all the while the speakers sit there like they are off. if sounds like a ghost band is sitting in your living room.
BTW, I feel the same way about employment. if I have to be hired by someone else or another company, I've already failed. I have to be self-reliant.
Not a ton of speakers where you can close your eyes and imagine yourself in a concert space, but the best accomplish that. If the engineers dicked around with the multi-track, though, it isn't going to sound like it would in a real room Haven't attended a concert yet where the violinist ran back and forth across the stage as they played....well maybe Nigel Kennedy.
I find that some of the planar speakers are very good at the disappearing act. I own Martin Logan CLS and they disappear very convincingly.
My main speakers offer a dead centre image - so much so that when setting them up for dual use as home theatre speakers, we omitted using a centre speaker - no need and anything that might have slightly bettered what we had would be brutally expensive (I checked and they wanted $9K for the matching centre speaker)
spread the speakers apart, you get a bigger soundstage between. I did that experiment outside with more power and big speakers, on a 1/2 acre lawn. the soundstage is precise and holographic between the speakers, and not as effective to the sides of the speakers. stereo was originally designed with the listener seated between the speakers, and the speakers in the corners of the room. anything other than that is a compromise, not following the original design of the recordings and stereo playback equipment. if the speakers are placed right next to each other, it's usually because the listening room is on the small side, or the enthusiast is cramped for available space. the ultimate listening room is a big 30' x 30' empty room with a vaulted ceiling rising towards the listeners' side, just like in a concert hall. that's why they build the auditoriums that way in the first place, not only for view, but for acoustics.
I'm running stacked, fully rebuilt Quads 57 and with my previous Audio Aero Prestige mono's (tubes), I had all the instruments so precise positioned on the rear wall and behind the speakers, that you could swear that there are multiple speakers on that real wall. Focus deep and sniper sharp! My speakers were there only like a display and, for some reason, I always attributed that to 57's, because I never heard that anywhere else! Heaven!!!
I got tired of tube hustles (specially 211's) and decided to switch to SS amps. Since 57's are difficult to drive, one of the best options appear to be something from Pass Labs bigger amp(s), so I went with XA100.5. Connecting the Pass amps, my real wall instruments completely disappeared, no focus, voice into my face, all the music coming from my speakers! From heaven to hell!
The last 3-4 weeks I'm constantly moving the speakers around and I was able to get a better focus, more "homogenized" sound within the speakers and the middle (the focus), but not able to get the deepness and nothing from my rear wall! Rear wall instruments does not exist anymore, they are now coming from the speaker and that's annoying me very much! Now no one's ask anymore where the sound is coming from......they all know! :)
Great suggestions, but the size of my room precludes implementing several of them. My room is 11x9x8 and well treated. I have the speakers 3' from the side walls and 3' from the back wall. That's about the best I can get ... it's a challenge.
If I am aware of music coming out of a box, I feel like I have a system that is a failure. Ironic that Michael Green posted. I purchased a pair of his rev60(?) speakers years ago. I thought it crazy in the manual he suggested bringing the speakers half way out into the room and so far apart. But each time I moved the speaker out further and further to that location the magic got better and better. This was the single biggest audio epiphany for me--ever! Thanks Michael. My current set up (
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7021
) disappears quite well indeed.
I listened to speakers blasting 100 watts per channel, with a thin soundstage for 25 years. Then I stumbled onto a low cost single ended pentode stereo amp, vintage 1960’s, and viola- a soundstage appeared, with incredible detail and depth- using the same old cheapo Technics 3-way speakers w/15" woofers from my solid state setup. I still vividly remember exactly how it happened. The speakers in my system are 28 feet apart, and about 5-1/2 feet high off the floor, on corner shelves. I was sitting on a couch opposite the speakers, and listening to a Jimi Hendrix tape. Suddenly I heard what sounded like someone knocking on my window, to get my attention, about 3 feet to the left of the right side speaker. (speakers are against my front house wall). Turning down the volume, I looked outside and saw no one there. Then I realized, that was the DRUMS in the song, that’s how realistic they were. after the amp warmed up good, about 2 hours later, it completely floored me. voices were appearing in the middle of the room, sound was rising up into the air like a tornado effect. a pillar of sound between the speakers. yet the speakers themselves appeared to stand there silent. it was actually EERIE. like listening to a ghost band. what recording it was, didn’t matter, they all had this impressive soundstage. when the sound does pan side to side, it does so within the confines of the speaker placement, in the space between the speakers- not from the speaker itself. Listening to Led Zeppelin live, the drum set sounded like it was 20 feet away dead center out on my front deck. what you get is, 3 pillars of sound, one dead center, one center left, one center right. and also drum sound and audience noise behind that. my living room has a vaulted ceiling that goes from 8 feet high to 16 feet high, and the speakers are mounted on the low side 8" wall corners. this gives an arena, coliseum, or theater effect, and enlarges the sound stage even more. here’s the bottom line, you won’t get a huge soundstage with lots of bloom and depth, in a small room with the speakers close together. the soundstage grows with speaker placement, the farther apart the better, and the higher the speakers the better. after experiencing this, it totally changed my listening habits from high powered 100+ watt solid state amps, to low powered 10 watt tube stereo amps. and a single ended amp will image better than a push-pull amp. I’ve done dozens of back to back tests. the single ended still has that little better edge over the push-pull in detail and soundstage every time. an added benefit is, you get much more listening pleasure from low volume and save your ears. I was blasting my eardrums out for 25 years looking for good sound from high wattage, and found it with a mere 6 or 8 watts per channel. to date the 6BQ5 tube is unmatched for sound quality on a reasonable sane budget. someday I’d like to try a 300B or 2A3 amp but they aren’t the best for contemporary or classis rock music. the 6BQ5 does everything good, for a very low cost. it was basically the pinnacle of tube development before the music industry went to solid state around 1970. all the Beatles catalog was recorded using 6BQ5 equipment. it is a very sensitive, detailed tube with a lot of detail. my amp seems to take a long time to warm up, but once it does, it’s incredible. simply marvelous, considering it was dirt cheap. the key is, maintenance. all the caps, pots, resistors, tubes, coils, transformers in the set have to be checked, and up to spec. one tiny cap in the system that’s bad, will throw it off. the output tubes have to be changed every 6 months to a year or so. and the rectifier tube kept fresh as well. the preamp tubes 12AX7 seem to last longer. Let me add this- once you hear music played in this manner, you'll never listen to music the same again. if it doesn't have that soundstage, other systems will pale in comparison and will sound like a car radio with a single speaker in the dash. try as you might to describe it to someone, they'll think you're nuts and imagining things- until they hear it for themselves. I demonstrated my system for my brother, and when he got up to use the bathroom, he was looking around up at the ceiling in the hallway, thinking I had flush mount speakers hidden there to enhance the sound- because it sounded the music was coming from there. our house cat was laying on top of the couch looking straight up between the speakers for the source of the sound, it even faked the cat out. so this is for real, not imagined. and it's the holy grail that been lost, with today's Chinese-made crap surround sound systems, with their tiny 7 speakers for hooked to the TV. they're a joke. no contest.
Not being flip but the best way to make your speakers disappear is to close your eyes or turn the lights out. Experimental psychologists have studied the "ventroloquism effect" which is a tendency for the perceived direction of sound to be where the source appears to be, not necessarily where it is. As long as you can see your speakers your brain will be fighting this tendency. This is probably one of the reasons why headphone listening can give such good localisation, nothing visual to distract the ear. Of course it helps not to have phantom channels and room reflections messing things up too.
Get them set up well, then make them less conspicuous. I have very open weave sheer silk "slip covers" for my Brystons, in black, and also in color patterns that blend in the room. Either way enhances the "disappearing" and therefore improve the imaging. Psycho-acoustics!
Precise placement of speakers down to 1/4” only works if your own ears are totally symmetrical. Most of us have ears and eyes where one side is slightly favored by your brain and that’s why you have the balance control. Also, I have compared two CD players in my system where the same CD is presented slightly differently by each as far as imaging goes which I did not expect. Experimentation is your friend.
i think with good placementand gear, and room acoustics, ie, rugs and things, you should definitely have a phantom center image. but expecting every recording to go beyond the speakers' width is a tough ask, i think its very recording dependent.
Some of that is "fake" stereo. Actually multi-track mono recordings they put out in stereo to try and cash in. I think there's at least one famous Beatles recording like that.
But even then, there's a difference between hearing the instruments coincide with the speakers and hearing the speakers themselves as unique sound sources in your space.
I could never get my speakers to image properly. No matter what I did. That includes many different audio equipment or different speakers large or small. Until I got into OBs (open baffle speakers) Now the speakers completelydisappear. The only drawback is that in order to get proper bass, you will need large speakers. Good for an audio room, but not so great for a living room I'm afraid.
The two biggest factors in whether a speaker images well are how inert the cabinet is and the space around it.
I’ve heard speakers from the "let the cabinet resonate" school do excellent disappearing acts.
In fact I once had the Shun Mook Bella Voce speakers, a paradigm of thinner walled, incorporate speaker resonance approach, and few speakers I’ve heard soundstaged and "disappeared" like those ones.
Guitars or voices etc hard panned to one speaker would still "float" behind or around the speaker as if it weren’t coming from that speaker.
The Harbeths I had did a pretty good job of disappearing as well. Not as well as my Thiels, but still impressive.
I have found that the openness of your electronics, your speakers and room acoustics are all factors regarding your speakers being able to disappear. I have a simple Michael Green Audio system using Roomtunes for acoustical tuning of the room, which is not symmetrical. I can tune for a focused or expansive soundstage. My speakers disappear when I'm listening near field, mid field or far field and the soundstage extends outside the speaker positions. If you want you can get info on this approach at http://tuneland.techno-zone.net.
Thanks for the welcome! Glad to see your RoomTuning!
When I see topics about making speakers disappear, and soundstaging, I get curious to see how many folks are using RoomTune. Collecting equipment is fun, but it's even more fun to get down to the business of tuning in our systems and recordings. Nothing quite like the hobby of tuning.
I have often added devices that make me think I hear performers in my listening room, but then at a later time thing I hear a further improvement. As I have said recently I have found that two of my 16 Zilplexs were not on the center line between my speakers. Previously I had found that one was about a quarter of an inch lower on the left side and the sound seemed to come more from that side and when I corrected it, the image was better.
But correcting the two misplaced Zilplexs had much more impact. In conjunction with my new Tripoint Thor Elite, the image just opened up giving me a sense of being in the room of the recording and hearing the decay of sounds and having three dimensional information. This was especially true of some vinyl recordings but not initially true on my DSD music server recordings. That difference has since closed.
The last four years have seen a great improvement in the feeling that I was at the recording event. I must say that this is a wondrous but expensive event. There is nothing like hearing Thelonious Monk in my listening room while I was in my Stressless chair. The opening of the sound stage in front of you is worth the effort.
Speakers 'disappearing' is what you want and where you need to be. Sure, if the guitar is on the right, in front (or behind) the speaker, thats where its going to come from. I remember the first time I achieved it and its a combination of speaker placement, a good hifi, cables and electricity, a good recording, good room acoustics, a bit of reading, tweaking and understanding. But, that's the beauty of the hobby.
All things equal, the electronics also make a big difference. Same speakers, music/source, room, cables, and now throw in a good class A SET tube amplifier in the mix and the speakers will just melt in the room. A good tube preamp will also paint a very different picture of the music between and around the speakers.
The Chesky one I mentioned was the only one I’ve come across that centred on getting imagining and depth right with your speaker positioning. Let me say right now though if you have all your audio gear on racks in between your speakers, say goodbye to your depth of image. The best is nothing between the speakers and as back as far as you can, a speaker guru Neville Thiele (rip) told me this, who with his mate Richard Small invented the Thiele and Small T/S speaker parameters , and I’ve never looked back. http://www.content-technology.com/peopleasia/?p=355
@georgehifi Hi, can you pls advise if the "audiophile" test albums are very helpful in testing a system's capabilities and help with setup? I came across these two on HDtracks and was wondering if they're worth buying:
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