I just bought a second home and the room where the new system will go is quite large (60’x20’) with a wall of windows. I’m looking for a pair of speakers that will be more for listening in position close to the system but that can still move enough air for when we have lots of people over. Budget is about $10-15K for an amp and speakers. I have a Moon 340i but fear it doesn’t have enough power to move the speakers I’ll get. I was thinking about Golden Ear reference but my wife and I are more classical and jazz listeners and these are better for rock? Suggestions appreciated!
@audiotroy has driven the OP out of the room. So sad. What I notice is that Dave and Troy do this constantly. If you push back on them, the posts get longer and longer, as if they can win the argument by using more words.
AudioTroy does offer good advice and information some times. And they offer positive feedback on competitor products... but alway qualified. "they are good, but..." and there is always that "but".
Legacy speakers may be the best speakers ever. But, my opinion will always be tainted by this sad poster and his habit of derailing every post he participates in. Why do these guys think it's okay to argue with everyone in almost every post?
Face it, @audiotroy, Legacy is good. But not perfect for every situation. Same with my Revel F208s. They are great in my room with my gear. No "buts" about it... except to say, But they are not perfect in every situation. Same is true for all the recommendations above, including Legacy. So get off your high horse and accept that there are different tastes, different rooms and different situations. And have a little self awareness that your loud, wordy, condescending posts don't help anyone... and usually end up crushing the discussion rather than helping it.
soundermn, Bravo! I don't even know you, but I think I like you! Seriously, as you say, Dave and Troy often have interesting and informative contributions, but when it comes to Legacy and Paradigm Persona, it gets to be a little much sometimes.
I hope we have not lost the OP, but.......if he is still reading this, my questions would be what does he use in his 1st home ( his bio indicates he has / had Gershman Acoustics AGs ) ? He knows something about sounds and music listening, and is probably asking due to the layout and acoustics of this new listening space. So, to the OP. Can you speak about the system in your 1st home and how you use it / enjoy it ? As far as dealers are concerned, Audiogon allows it, so lets all live nicely together. We really are a passionate bunch here on the "Gon.
Personally I don't care much for Klipsch but the Klipschhorns would sound great and the amp you have would probably drive it fine, just make sure you put them in the corners. I can recommend the speakers that I use, but I hate it when people do that. Btw listen to the dynaudio contour 60 b4 you buy if you can.
Hemlotech, we are very well qualified to talk about speakers in this price range we display Dali Epicon at $14-20k, the Legacy Focus and Aeris, the Paradigm Persona, ATC, Quad, Cabasse, Rethem, Elac,Kef Reference and Blades.
In the past we have sold, many other brands of loudspeakers.
We talk lot about Legacy because few people have heard them, and they offer incredible value for the money.
How many speakers that are affordable and offer all of these advantages:
1: Managable size 2: High power handling 3: High SPL 4: High efficiency 92db 5: Prodigious bass 18hz 6: Works with tubes and solid state 7: Attractive cabinetry with custom finishes. 8: Optional bass amp 9: Optional Dac/Room Correction processor/and active crossover. 10: Very clean top end and midrange with German made Heil AMT drivers 11: Very clean custom silk/graphite midrange driver 12: Big soundstage and a liquid midrange. 13: Affordable price to performance ratio: Focus Signatures $7k, larger Focus $11-13k.
The tonal balance and deep bass and musical performance means that the speaker is very listenable and well suited to many people's tastes.
We know of only the Golden Ear Reference and the Tekton's offer some of these advantages which is one of the reasons that we love the line.
Are they for everyone? No they are not but then again, what product is?
I believe @audiotroy 's intent is largely misunderstood here. I visited his showroom recently with a "meager" $5k budget, and he spent a solid couple of hours discussing various options with me. He has an incredible amount of gear on display and available to audition - much more so than other high-end audio retailers in the NY/NJ area. I found the experience to be a step-up from my visits to other stores in the area. And yes, he is able to readily discuss the pros and cons of gear that he carries or has carried/worked with previously, which is both informative and beneficial for a consumer with limited exposure to the numerous brands and products on the market.
At the end of the day, we’re all grown-up enough to be able to make up our own minds about what we like or don’t like - nobody’s forcing us to do anything. If you don’t like someone’s opinion on a piece of audio gear, just keep scrolling brother. We’re not trying to change the world here.
@audiotroy I have no doubt that you have learned a great deal over 30 years in the audio gear business. Sharing your expertise is welcome. Please advertise elsewhere!
@hifiman5 ...big +1....what was that funny and famous Mark Twain quote? I know, “ never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience “......
thank you all for the detailed responses. i wasn't receiving updates via email and didn't realize there was this much detail in this thread that I started. I APOLOGIZE! @Aalenik I'm listening to the AZC's this weekend! @shadorne in terms of the type of speaker, I'm much more interested in quality sound than aesthetics. A traditional box that sounds great without all the "luxury" fit and finish appeals to me much more. I have a wife, but it so happens she is also looking for great sound more than outward looking appeal.
@tomic601 I've listened to Dynaudio Contour's and Spendor D9's recently and liked them both a lot for different reasons but feel they are very over-priced for what they are, to the tune of $5K over-priced. I'm hot to audition some Vandersteen's, mostly the 3's. I'm starting to realize that what I should be going for is really good sound at around 12' from where the speakers will be, and not worry as much about filling the room which would compromise everything. I will certainly look into conditioning the room (drapes, dampening, etc.) but the first is getting a suitable system. @audiotroy what has happened here is unfortunate. You seemed to have caused a flame throw festival when many just wanted to be helpful. I see you are a Gershman dealer and I personally like my AvantGarde's a lot, so I'll assume you try to sell value-based products whenever possible. I guess there is a fine line that is not to be crossed here, which stands to reason. @shadorne as for my personal taste, what else would you like to know? 50% of my listening is definitely 50's jazz. The rest is split between classic rock, brazilian, afro-cuban and classical. For playback, I'll use a high quality DAC with some form of rasberry (I have the DigiOne Allo at home and love it) coupled with Roon. I have vinyl in my apartment with a Rega deck but don't plan on having vinyl in this new system as this one needs to be focused on convenient playback and integrating my wife's collection and mine or else she will toss me on my ass.
Tekton would be a real nice fit. I own the Electrons and can't be happier. My other pair which are too large for my current room are $30,000 Piega C10 Ltds. Although the Piegas are in a league of their own, they are not missed. Tekton is the real deal at a reasonable price.
Exactly. Americans make nearly everything in Asia or Mexico. Very good value. Definitely the last place I would look for SOTA but for value “American Brand” - the stuff made in Asia is by far the best value.
If you read above the OP found Dynaudio and Spendor to be too expensive by a long way - 5K...so I am simply trying to help in consideration of the OP needs.
Used Thiel would be great value.
All my two channel gear is almost all new and all made entirely in the West. UK and USA. Not outsourced. However, I pay a big premium for that pleasure....at least double the price.
I recently heard the Vandersteen Quattro Wood CT at a friend’s home and I can say with very little reservation that it was the best sound I have heard to date. Not heard the brands like Wilson or other comparable exotic brands but the experience listening to these speakers was boderline religious. They were paired with his spanky new Audio Research VSi75 integrated and a very basic Bluesound Node2 streamer running through an Ayre Codex. Simply breathtaking and within OP’s budget.
@soundermn@vingard and others who have slammed @audiotroy for offering his opinions. I just got off the phone with Dave and had a very nice and friendly hour-long chat. I've experienced most if not all of the NYC/tri-state area audio dealers and I assure all of you, Dave is not one of them. After spending 30 minutes on the phone with him, he actually directed me to a speaker he thought was on sale on Agon! As someone who is trying to go and audition speakers with limited time, there is knowledge that I can't possibly expect to glean because I don't have the time to acquire it. When you've been doing something as long as Dave and Troy have (combined 70 years of experience) in a hobby that is incredibly subjective, their opinions are valid, and they deserve a right to have them and post them freely, unless of course there are clear rules against that sort of thing. However, @soix was probably right to call Dave out for bashing his recommendation, maybe that wasn't cool, but I can also respect that Dave feels that the AZ's aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending. I will give Dave my time (although maybe not my hard-earned money) because I think he will open my ears up to some things I wouldn't have otherwise heard. Cheers to all and thanks for being passionate about great sound. ~Lance
Igoler- well thank God and some of the sweeter words and notes have not put you off.... some thoughts.... again with my known bias... great sound at the 15’ mark is certainly doable - using Jim Smith setup rule of 83%, that would put your speakers about 12.5’ apart... you could get new Quattro with powered integral sub but as you say significant $ going into the cabinet - explaining the quarter million pair seller Vandersteen model 2 and 3, the $$$ goes into the sound not fancy veneers and a pretty cabinet. as Stringreen so aptly points out you could also get a pair of used 5a which come with IMO a world class subwoofer... and a switchable rear firing tweeter for when you want more room fill, 10% distortion but pleasing in the right situations.... glad you are having fun!!!!!
I thought I would post separate about Made in USA...
again a bit of bias explained: for 35 years I made a living working for global corporations with customers and supply chains stretching the globe... indeed most of it at America’s largest exporter. Trained as an economist in the Chicago school I am pretty confident in a few basics...
finding an American Made speaker , 100% neigh impossibe... in the case of Vandersteen, RV tries to source USA but he also sells globally, certainly a balance to be sought there...but in the end super high value finds a home in the product: SEAS drivers, Vishay and WIMA, cabinets built in house, Aerospace grade CF, veneer from HighTek, etc... anyway.... just something to consider...
And finally as a 2nd home owner where music is also hyper important, I purposefully ( and with a lot of guidance from my mentors ) set out on a somewhat different path than my main system. i chose one button iPad controlled streaming and NAS drive access for spouse and her family and sweet pure analog for me, trying to not duplicate TT rigs in two places....
everybody has a different flavor
you seem like you are spending a lot of time thinking first :-)
"However, @soix was probably right to call Dave out for bashing his recommendation, maybe that wasn't cool, but I can also respect that Dave feels that the AZ's aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending."
THIS IS PRECISELY THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM HERE. I really don't mean to prolong this, but the main problem keeps getting swept aside under the guise of audiotroy's "advice." It's NOT that he's pushing his own brands, which as others noted he's free to do here (although I'll note he does it much more frequently and forcefully than any other manufacturers or retailers here). It's specifically that they also berate or marginalize other recommendations and/or competitive products. Whether it's altruistic or not is completely irrelevant. Look at your case right here:
"but I can also respect that Dave feels that the AZ's aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending."
BINGO. RIGHT THERE IS THE PROBLEM. When Dave is pushing his products here he shouldn't be sharing what he "FEELS" (or anything else for that matter) about another recommendation or product if he doesn't sell it. Look how he just potentially affected your perception of my recommendation versus the product HE SELLS. It's a pure conflict of interest. And in this case his "FEELINGS" were based on hearing the Crescendos in a show setting. What??? Tell you what, here's what a couple respected and veteran reviewers said of these speakers when auditioned in their own systems with their own equipment:
Dick Olsher from Absolute Sound "The Crescendo comes about as close to being an ideal resistive load as one can expect from a box speaker. It’s the sort of dream load every pentode amp would appreciate. Acoustic Zen’s Robert Lee has crafted a magnificent transmission-line speaker, truly a perfectionist labor of love. The Crescendo is eminently musical and supremely well-integrated from top to bottom. It certainly pushed of all my emotional buttons and is currently my favorite box speaker under $30k. Make no mistake about it: The Crescendo is a fantastic value at its asking price. An enthusiastic five-star recommendation!"
Or Dave Clark from Positive Feedback: "As a side note, the Crescendos did arrive with a complete set of measurements that are rather stunningly flat and overall quite excellent in all respects being very reminiscent of how the Tetons measure after the DEQX 'treatment'. Of which all points to Robert having done it right. The Crescendos are a speaker that will open a door to what is in your music. They are a true audio "tool" to not only hear and see how the music was recorded, but to realize what is going on in your system. They will reveal things about your music and system that you might not want to know—they are honest and pure. For the $16000 you get an amazingly well-thought and a beautiful loudspeaker (fit and finish are superb) that competes with other designs costing several times their more 'affordable' price. How Robert does it, I have no idea as these are a true assault in defining a full-range SOTA loudspeaker. I loved my short time with the speakers and found them a wonderful window into my music. Kudos to Robert and the AZ team."
But then there's that DaveTroy "FEELS" the Crescendos aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending due to his hearing them at a couple audio shows. That'd be suspect enough as a response from any regular member, but that HE'S SELLING what he's recommending in these circumstances MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE HERE. Look at other reputable manufacturers and retailers here such as atmasphere, pbnaudio, audioconnection, and note how they NEVER, EVER, downplay another product or recommendation in favor of one of their own products despite undoubtedly having strong opinions. They know better. They have class. They respect the mission of this site and they do it right.
So here's the thing -- that I at all felt the need to have to come back on here and defend and support my prior recommendation AGAINST THE WORDS OF A RETAILER pushing his own product while detracting from mine is what makes audiotroy's behavior detrimental and a serious threat to this site. (Your own statement shows that his words affected your opinion of my recommendation). They may try to cloak their sales tactics under the guise of providing "honest" opinions, but the damage is still being done.
Last thought. Some people may still be willing to sweep audiotroy's tactics under the rug because they sometimes provide some seemingly unbiased information and help. But if they can continue to get away with criticizing and undermining other's recommendations here, what will this site become when other retailers start doing the same thing here? Will it still seem helpful then? It's a slippery slope, and I for one sincerely hope this stops here and now before it gets further out of hand and significantly undermines the usefulness and purpose of this site. Once again -- Peace out.
Soix, you sound like just another hurt audiophile whose product missed the Absolute Sound or Stereophile’s recommended components list and is now offended.
We mentioned that the AZ products were okay, not good not bad. sure there will always be some mention on some show or in a review of how good that product is. However, the point we were making is the market speaks volumes. Your Postitive Feedback mention was old from 2012 the current price of the speakers is $25k.
What we said about the Zen products WE WERE DEALERS! So we actually have first hand knowlege of how their products sound and in all areas as well AS HOW THEY ACTUALLY COMPARE TO THE COMPETITION, the Zen’s were beaten as both a cable company and as a speaker vendor, which is WHY WE DON"T SELL THEM any more.
So Soix, you think we are bashing them because we don’t sell their products you are wrong. WHAT MAKES OUR OPINIONS VALUABLE is actual experience.
Sure you may think that never mentioning the areas where product x has issues, is classy, we don’t and if you are honest when compariing two or more products you will have an opinion, and guess what on doing a comparison you will weigh both products, in the good side and the bad side your opinion formed would be something, like I love the Mercedes x class, good fuel economy, great engine and styling, but compared to the BMW 5 series the BMW has a better engine, nearly as good styling, but has a bigger trunk and better fuel economy so even though I really like the Mercedes, I think ultimately I will go for the BMW.
Soix this is how actually people make up their minds, strengths vs weakness on all products, and the one that is selected wins the most points.
People learn about a product by comparision, and unfortunatly in this country it may be impossible to find someone who has experience with that product, and as mentioned AZ has a decent amount of dealers how many pairs of AZ speakers are actually available to listen to throughout the country?
We are willing to bet there are very few AZ speaker dealers currently displaying speakers, also how many $25k 100% made in China speakers are currently actually selling in the market?
You may ask what is the relevancy? If a product sells you may actually be able to audition it and not be flying or buying blindly, also this affects resale and your ability to ultimately move the product if you decide to.
Again answer the question if most people here had $25k to purchase a set of speakers, how many would be seeking out a set of Crecendo’s to audition, vs Wilson, Focal, Rockport, Paradigm, Martin Logan etc.
If you think that we are China bashers we are not, we had a good run with Usher loudspeakers which are also 100% made in China, the difference was that Usher makes 100% of their own parts in house and at the time whose speakers like the BE 10 were selling for a lot less then a compariable high end American made speaker. The BE 10 offered a Beryillium tweeter and Beryillium midrange driver plus an Eaton woofer in a 230lb cabinet for $14k that was for a brand new set of loudspeakers.
No Soix we are not bashing AZ, as you seem to think we are disagreeing with your recommendation, that they are a great contender.
We will say that the AZ will accomplish serveral of the requirements for a large space so sonically they would do the job and we can at least agree with you that in terms of filling up a large room they are both somewhat efficient and have good low bass capabliity however, are they worth that $25k that is the question or would possibly a pair of Legacy Focus do the job for brand new set of speakers for $11k?
Your comment on the Aeris being a contender for a shootout is valid from a price perspective but sonically, a well set up set of Focus come really close to the magic of a much more expensive set of speakers. If you heard the sound that Legacy was getting at the NY Audio show you would have though the Focus was a $25k speaker not a $11k one.
Again ask yourself the question, if you were going to purchase at full retail would that product be on your radar, if the answer is yes, then we humbly beg for your forgiveness, if the answer is no for $25k that speaker wouldn’t be on my short list than lets see who is right?
After reading a review of the current Dynaudio FocusXD and XEO line and that they offer, I feel I would be crazy not to consider actives for use in my home. Does anyone have an opinion based on their own listening experience about Dynaudio's active line or other similarly priced speakers that are active?
Ebm issue with Magico I doubt they would be able to play loud enough to fill up such a big room add in 88db efficiency and the speaker is doomed to sound physically small in such a huge space.
Sure you can augment with subs but that still doesnt change the fact that the A3 is a compact small sized Magico.
Now for a more conventionally sized room you would have a contender.
Hence our recommendations Golden Ear, Tektons or Legacy, used Kef Blades are awesome if you can find em.
Our demo room is half the size 26 by 20 10 ft ceiling we can hit 105 db with a 300 watt amp with the Blades.
@audiotroy I unfortunately do not own Crescendos and I’m neither hurt nor offended, but thanks for your concern. They were, however, a TAS Top Pick in Loudspeakers over $10,000, right next to the Legacy Aeris BTW. So let’s get our alternative facts straight, shall we?
"We mentioned that the AZ products were okay, not good not bad"
Exactly! But what you’re also saying is that IN YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION they are inferior to what you are recommending here AND SELL!!! Why does this continue to not penetrate? This is not fact, but you using your own inherently biased opinion to belittle another recommendation in favor of one that YOU SELL.
"What we said about the Zen products WE WERE DEALERS! So we actually have first hand knowlege of how their products sound and in all areas as well AS HOW THEY ACTUALLY COMPARE TO THE COMPETITION"
But as you said previously, you didn’t carry the Crescendos and that your opinion of them was from hearing them at shows. Not sure how this makes you an expert on how they compare to the competition that -- what was that again? -- oh yes, YOU SELL.
"So Soix, you think we are bashing them because we don’t sell their products you are wrong. WHAT MAKES OUR OPINIONS VALUABLE is actual experience."
I never said you were bashing them, those were the words of the OP. Opinions are not facts no matter how much experience they’re based on, so using yours to marginalize other recommendations or products to influence others to make products YOU SELL sound better is dirty pool. Full stop. But yes, we can certainly agree that your opinions can be valuable -- especially for YOU.
"Again answer the question if most people here had $25k to purchase a set of speakers, how many would be seeking out a set of Crecendo’s to audition, vs Wilson, Focal, Rockport, Paradigm, Martin Logan etc."
That’s precisely why people come here to get supposedly honest and unbiased feedback. They don’t come here to have a biased retailer tell them a recommendation from another member is not worth $25k. Incidentally, my original recommendation was (and continues to be) for a nice demo pair of Crescendo mklls selling (on US Audio Mart) for about $12k because they are in his price range and seem to meet all his needs. .
"If you think that we are China bashers we are not"
Rrrrrriiiiiiiiight. I never said anything about China (or "Jighna" either).
"Your comment on the Aeris being a contender for a shootout is valid from a price perspective but sonically, a well set up set of Focus come really close to the magic of a much more expensive set of speakers"
Again, I never said anything about the Aeris. Another nice plug though.
"Again ask yourself the question, if you were going to purchase at full retail would that product be on your radar, if the answer is yes, then we humbly beg for your forgiveness, if the answer is no for $25k that speaker wouldn’t be on my short list than lets see who is right?"
The answer is yes, and apology accepted -- no begging necessary. We already know your short list since you keep pushing it here. It’s not about you or me being "right," which is just a stupid concept here. It’s about helping the OP make the best decision possible for his situation and tastes and not discouraging the exploration of other honest recommendations to your potential benefit.
I’ll just leave with a bit of honest advice for YOU audiotroy. There’s no problem with you expressing your positive opinions about your products here (although it is quite tiresome), and if your products are really that good people will seek them out and buy them. But using your inherently biased opinions to further say less than positive things about other recommendations or products THAT YOU DON’T SELL is at the very least fishy and likely unethical (and it just looks bad bad BAD), and if you continue to do so you’ll get even more pushback here and possibly irreparably damage your reputation and credibility here. It sounds like you try hard to honestly help people at your shop, so don’t undermine that by unnecessarily shooting yourself in the foot here. Happy Friday all.
@soix maybe you and Dave could agree to meet up and duke it out. I'm trying to get opinions on my post. You seem like you want to have a personal argument that I would call unrelated. Furthermore, does anyone on this thread really care anymore about your defense of the speakers you don't own? Jeez man. You must not work for a living with the amount of time you are spending on this argument.
bumping my last question since my post was once again co-opted by bickering. My question was about active floorstanders, which I'll re-quote. "After reading a review of the current Dynaudio Focus XD 60 and XEO line, I would be crazy not to consider actives for use in my home. Does anyone have an opinion based on their own listening experience about Dynaudio's active line or other similarly priced speakers that are active?"
An active can play loud which is a good thing. The Dynaudio loudspeakers are excellent.
You are pressurizing a very large room which requries large speakers.
Go to a concert you will see a large stack of loudspeakers as you lose 3db output for every 12 feet of distance.
In our opinion the Dynaudio is still not going to sound big enough for that space.
Innovative Audio sells Dynaudio so you should be able to demo a pair.
Gee Soix thanks for your coaching you seem out of date Absolute Sound reviewed the Zens in 2013 are they in the current recomended list now I dont think so.
Again you miss our point where is the Op going to hear a pair?
Last point if the companies cables werent competitive with Nordost or Wireworld and the AZ Addagio wasnt competive with the other speakers we sold dont you think we had valid points about the AZ line?
@Igoler I’m truly sorry that this has sidetracked your thread, and no I have no desire to continue this argument. In fact, I hate that I have to do it but some things are just worth fighting for. You call it unrelated, but you’ve got 28 posts here so maybe it doesn’t mean as much to you as it does to many of us who have participated on and benefitted from this site for many years. But I do find it somewhat ironic you’re singling me out when I’m the one trying to preserve the integrity of this site while others seek to shamelessly turn it into a marketing vehicle for their own business.
BTW, people recommend things they don’t or haven’t owned here all the time, and I have heard the Crescendos, like audiotroy, at shows and also in a friend’s system. I have no vested interest in whether you buy the Crescendos or not -- I was just trying to potentially help you by recommending something maybe you hadn’t thought of that sounded like it could meet all your stated needs. And I’m not defending the speakers as much as I am my ability to make honest recommendations here without some retailer coming in and undermining it to push his own products. If you don’t see the problem or danger in that, then maybe I was just wasting my (and other people’s) time here. Guess we’ll see. Anyway, best of luck in finding what you’re looking for. Peace out.
Now this is from someone who spent minutes/hours lecturing others about bashing other brands, especially without any personal experience, Simply incredible....
Soix why you are on to something. Actually the ATC SCM 100 would do it, however this pair is as old as the hills.
The ATC actives play loud as hell they are used in recording studios. and the 100 sound pretty big, this pair would have 10 year old amplifers or older which are not as good as the current versions, also I think the current ATC SCM 100 ASL use an in house tweeter.
However even considering the size of the woofer I don't think the 100's go that deep.
Logoler should listen to the active Dynaudio's and see for himself. They are very nice loudspeakers.
For what its worth, I just completed an extensive in home double blind a/b test of the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with RAAL against the Bowers and Wilkins 702 S2. My results can be seen in full on AVS forum. I chose the B and W in the end. For Jazz and all the B and W would really be good but sounds like your budget can accomodate something better than this 3-5K range.
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