+1 stebut - I agree with you! If there are actual sonic differences between wire it would have been measurable long ago! I blame Noel Lee with his Monster cable for starting this. Before his subjective claims of Monster's superiority everyone used zip cord - and nobody complained! For interconnects it was gray Switchcraft from Radio Shack. Nobody complained! The whole wire business is built upon the unscrupulous preying upon the neurotically obsessed and insecure.
Speaker Cables? why all the hype for expensive speaker wire?
After listening to many speaker cables, I am listening to basic 14 Gauge, high purity copper speaker wire and find myself shaking my head. Does this basic speaker wire sound better than cables many times the price? I am really starting to ponder that question. I think I am hearing things on my records I never heard before and better balance of sound. What are your thoughts?
235 responses Add your response
If anyone needs scientific proof with cables, do the first step with anything scientific and do some direct observations for yourself. Lots of supposedly scientifically oriented people have gone to great lengths to provide themselves with results that match their beliefs. The internet is littered with them. The naysayers who post here rely on them. It's what trolls do. All the best, Nonoise |
I don’t quite get the deaf audiophile society folks. Do they actually believe that by telling somebody there is no difference in cables, people are somehow going to "unhear" what they heard? (That and the fact that they seem to think that the 1.8 GPA they managed to maintain throughout middle school somehow makes them qualified psychologists and ENTs.) Scientific method states a hypothesis needs be developed to explain an observation. It does not say if you’re too ignorant to develop a suitable hypothesis, the observation is somehow false. There is not a single scientific law or model that says all cables will sound the same. There are thousands of observations over many decades that attest to cables sounding different. While ignorance is clearly a requirement for membership of the deaf audiophile society, it does not prove all cables sound the same. |
Ah!When the master of the Universe Millercarbon stops to critique my comment, I know I am onto something.
"...you have concluded you not only know more than much more experienced
listeners, you know enough to conclude they need therapy. Impressive.
..."Nowhere did I conclude that I know "much more"...but what the hell is an "experienced" listener?Is that someone who has the disposal income to go through an extensive and expensive trial and error evaluation?Is it someone who, like the Corvette driver I alluded to, has bought into all the Corvette marketing and feels bigger and better and smarter and richer and freer and...etc., than the Camry driver.It is copper, that is affected by resistance and inductance and capacitance in ways that may affect the end sound insofar as it may sound better or worse or the same. All of the rest is simply marketing, trying to pry the extra bucks out of an "experienced listener" and stroke his ego. If you want to spend your life and your money arguing to justify what goes into your ears as a result, Hey, this is still pretty much America.But do not hold yourself out as the expert as to what goes into my ears,Mr. Experienced Listener" aka "millercarbon". |
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12:28pmvinyl_rules
Perhaps others have tried and found it is not as easy as you suggest. What is stopping you from undertaking such a simple task? cleeds, You should reread my post. No where did I say this would be “simple” or “easy,” I rather think an undertaking like this would be complex, costly, and time consuming.And were I an interconnect manufacturer already successfully selling expensive cables, why would I bother? Many scientific breakthroughs/innovations come from small start ups headed by independent thinkers who would find no support for their ideas in established companies. |
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Great post. The only problem is, if they were to take up your advice and try some cables from The Cable Co., then they'd be exposed to more than they think they know, shattering their preconceptions and come to the realization that some cables do sound much better than others. No matter how much easier you make it for them so it's all upsides and no downsides, they'll just ignore your well reasoned advice (which, sad to say, has been given hundreds of times here) and continue to live in their bubble. It's what they do. It's how they live. But great advice, nonetheless. All the best, Nonoise |
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The experience of hearing a difference between cables is exactly the kind of event which requires scientific experimentation. Saying that an observation, or repeated observations, are "not scientific" does not erase the experience. Indeed, using "scientific" as a *refutation* of experience actually does harm to science; not only does it disregard experience, it abuses the term "scientific" by making it a conversation-stopper. The invention of modern science was made possible by taking experience seriously. Read about it. Before then, people looked to Aristotle and Ptolemy for their science. The world was fixed and scientific facts could be deduced. (Aristotle, probably history’s greatest biologists overall, deduced that women had fewer teeth because they were, by definition, inferior to men. He could have counted, but that would have been relying too much on experience.) Umami was a well defined taste experience for a long time in various cultures. They recognized it, desired it, and even developed recipes to express it. https://flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2044-7248-4-13 See the analogy? Experience first. Explanation second. If experience contradicts existing metrics and explanations, then the greatest possible effort must be taken to show why or how the experience is erroneous. Science is conservative -- it seeks to preserve theories which work. But once experience proves obstinate to existing theories, theory must find a way to adapt. If you don’t believe that, tell me why the sun is now at the center of our solar system rather than the earth. |
More Importantly if an opportunity to share in a experience is denied to oneself because ones belief mechanisms and theories reject the idea that something new can be obtained, through participating in the experience. Then that is a situation that is fine the that person. There is no need to spend any time to create a change. If an individual with these inclinations is to enter into a discussion on the outcome of the types of experiences that have been passed over. Where there are the findings of others being shared, by those who have chosen to participate in a particular type of experience. Those who are refusing to undertake or acknowledge any value to the experience, are going to be sharing an information that is deficient in Value. It is quite clear from my own experiences and sharing some of those experiences in the Company of others who are showing a Interest, that a Cable can produce a perception of being attractive and produce an improvement, whilst demonstrated along side another Cable that can be perceived of being less attractive and not able to be perceived as being a Improvement. I am most contented by undertaking in these experiences, they have been the most educational . One alternative can be to refuse to participate and claim the time spent is futile and will lead to falsities being made known. I am quite content to not adopt this attitude any longer, that one is a thing from my past, and creates limitations. |
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/04/audio-by-van-alstine-abx-comparator.html i find this unit indispensible in comparing many components and cables, esp. cables very useful to combat confirmation bias and also disparate volume settings when trying to discern differences and preferences |
@jjss49 Can the ABX comparator be used to compare girlfriends/boyfriends for longtime placement in the rig that is our life? Because $$'s saved on divorces can buy some pretty nice gear. (Seriously: how good a rig could one buy for the cost, overall, of a divorce? I think we're talking some pretty nice gear.) |
Right on, Hilde, MC, Nonoise. We are dealing with abstractions. Abstractions are abstract because they defy concrete explanations. We should welcome and commend the contributions made by the righteous electricians to our understanding of cables, switches, fuses and all the other "snake-oil" we enjoy at sometimes extraordinary prices. Please, will one of them prove empirically that all cables are the same. |
In my experience: 1. There are systems where cables matter a lot, and some others where the difference is smaller (usually less resolving systems but there must be more to it than that). For example, a friend of mine has nice vintage Tannoy speakers, where not only cables but even source components seem to make little difference ;) 2. I agree some cheaper cables can let you "hear more" but it doesn't mean the sound quality is better. It may be because the bass is weak, you perceive more in the mids or highs. Or sometimes there seems to be less bass but it's better quality and you learn to appreciate it more. 3. It also always amazes me how different the cable breakin experience can be with different people. For example, when I get a new cable with Furutech rhodium plated plugs, it takes months in my system before it sounds beautiful, whereas some other people claim to have the same experience on the first day... 4. Comparing cables can be tricky as even the well brokenin cable may need time to settle after it's disconnected and reconnected... |
Re 3 and 4: I'm sure it's not a question of "adapting" - my Furutech cables sound from absolutely "horrific" to absolutely "magical" over the long months of breakin. It's from "no soundstage" to "deep and wide soundstage", it's from "harsh highs" to "magical highs", it can't be a question of adaptation... |
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@lalitk Good suggestion but do you really think anyone would pony up for this device? i have one, it is a very useful truth-teller... has been quite worth it to me, since i use it fairly often to confirm what i am hearing among changes in cables, dacs, preamps etc etc... excellent for confirmation (or refutation) of my initial listening impressions of new stuff without careful control -- more than a few times it told me what i thought i was hearing was actually not so once volume adjusted and blinded granted once trying to figure something out for myself i am more willing to dig in than the every day hifi nut - i have been at this too long to trust the marketing drivel (or even my own ears at first listen...) @hilde45 Can the ABX comparator be used to compare girlfriends/boyfriends for longtime placement in the rig that is our life? Because $$'s saved on divorces can buy some pretty nice gear. (Seriously: how good a rig could one buy for the cost, overall, of a divorce? I think we're talking some pretty nice gear.) hey, that is what mother in laws are for!!! or actually, as much as i know of frank v a, a lunch or cup o coffee with him in person would be a useful screen! 🧐🧐🧐 |
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@lloydc I have been a beta tester of GroverHuffman.com cables for 20 years. His speaker cables have evolved at a slower pace with about four or five iterations in 20+ years. His Empress speaker cables are excellent and his Pharoah speaker cables are superb. Both are affordably priced and can be made bi-wired. Such great cables at such reasonable prices. |
Hello,so I hadn’t planned on chiming in until I read a comment on the second page about Audioquest type 4 speaker wire.All I can say is 7or 8 years ago ago I owned 5 ten ft. runs of it for a surround system. It worked wonderful for movies and tv,was reasonably priced, 150.00 a pc for 10 ft.run. I had a decent two channel set up in a separate room for music. That system was Parasound JC1 monos,BAT VK 52 pre,Dynaudio Confidence speakers, and Nordost Valhalla speaker cables,2 m. For kicks and giggles a friend and I switched out just speaker cable to hear the difference. First we tried the Audioquest type 4. I was completely amazed at how lifeless and terrible sounding it became. I knew the Nordost was better cable. I just wasn’t expecting such a huge,terrible sounding difference. I also had a set of Nordost Baldur speaker speaker cable we tried next. This was so much better than the AQ, and not that much more expensive. So this was my experience,with those components in the system. If your using Audioquest type 4 and happy, just don’t ever try a better speaker cable. You will hear an improvement. If you can’t,there’s an issue with your hearing or something. Sorry to burst your bubble,but you probably won’t hear it pop! Good day,John |
Named after the economist who first studied it, Thorstein Vleben, The Vleben Effect is the phenomenon that higher prices effects create a higher perceived quality. There is an entire industry of designer products offering consumers the comfort garnered from this perception. Designer branded products are thr perfect example. For me, the name McIntosh has continued to personifie this effect longer than any other audio company. If their prices were lowered to coincide with manufacturing costs, people would not think it is as good, and buy something more expensive. How much does anyone really think wire costs to make, and/or, stamp with your name? |
@johnnyaudiogoon - Hilarious and well articulated. Enjoyed a heavy laugh reading your post. My father-in-law (who has his graduate degree in electrical engineering from UofI) tried to dissuade me in looking at pricier cables - bringing in his educational background and “science”. I can’t wait to offer him some watermelon with mustard. |
Acoustic Zen and harmonic technology are extremely good cables that's because they use OCC single crystal wire which is far superior to anything ofc on the market. But there are other companies that are charging an arm and a leg for OCC single Crystal AZ and HT are very reasonably priced, and all the manufacturers that use OCC single Crystal are buying it from only three places and Wan lung in Taiwan is the cheaper of the three. The other two OCC manufacturers are in Japan. So the only thing that will make a difference is how the cable geometry is designed and they're all pretty much the same whether you pay the high price of audioquest or the more reasonably priced of AZ and HT. |
Acoustic Zen and harmonic technology are extremely good cables that’s because they use OCC single crystal wire which is far superior to anything ofc on the market. I am definitely not a member of the Science! Police, however... If what you claim were true, it should be extremely simple to demonstrate such superiority through measurements that can be translated to audible differences. Can you point readers to any such tests? Surely the manufacturers of cables that include such wire would be keen to prove its superiority, no? |
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