I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
I dont think that it is good politic and proof of understanding to attack any character or person here instead of discussing his rational arguments...
I myself discussed for many days already here with Amir and he never attacked my character. For sure some posters on ASR as in Audiogon can gangstalk someone and many had attacked or mocked many people here or in ASR . But Amir was and is a gentleman...😊
I disagree completely with him about the order of the factors importance : hearing theory and experience must rules gear measurements not the reverse. And anyway physical speakers/room/ears acoustics measurements takes the cake over some small % differences of some cherry picked electrical tool measures applied to one piece of gear design, out of any specific system synergy and out of any specific room acoustic for no specific ears ...
Anyway only rational discussion makes us different from raging apes..😊
However, I do find his site and tribe useful for me to figure things out.
Some gear that is praised to the hilt on this site was also not preferred by me. I have learned to understand the sonic preferences of A’gon posters. That give me some context.
I do not agree with Amir's measurements are the end all point of view. This is because I have purchased the best gear as stated on his site and compared with other gear. However, I do find his site and tribe useful for me to figure things out.
Some gear that is praised to the hilt on this site was also not preferred by me. I have learned to understand the sonic preferences of A'gon posters. That give me some context.
I will hear everyone out on their audio experience since it gives me more data points to figure things out on my own.
Mr. Amir in the introduction to one of his videos stated
"we absolutely can measure the differences between cables. The question is do those measurements matter as far as the perception, and the short answer is they don't"
Why then he bothers to do the measurements? Isn't the perception behind the whole idea of the sound reproduction? I think these are rhetorical questions.
@alexatpos "I understood that any other conversation is pointless"
... you "have been measuring" while Nelson and Viktor built tons of gear people love, buy and keep for years ... Why are you even here? Are you yearning for attention and confirmation of your "achievements"?
He's a YouTuber who uses this site to promote his, just as numerous others have done here before him. They all rely on controversy and drama to whip up enthusiasm and if there's not enough excitement to generate the clicks they'll invent their own conflicts.
Another common YouTuber technique is to cloak oneself as a savior - a protector against a corrupt industry, snake oil, and unscrupulous dealers. Those that fail to embrace the savior are thus "afraid of the truth" or hopelessly deluded.
Personally, I have never been bothered by Amir's conclusions. We have exchanged few notes here, but after I read that he do not 'hear' ('believe' , 'measure' or else) difference between various different cables, I understood that any other conversation is pointless. On the other hand, I have many audiophile friends, who have very different 'standards' about hi fi than me. Should we all start 'fighting' with anyone who believes or does things in a way that differs from ours? I believe not.
So, instead of trying or pushing him (or anyone else of that matter) away from these pages, I guess the smart way would be to choose conversations where you can actually learn or share some information with people whose opinion you care about. The rest is just a waste of time and energy. He will not change his point of view and neither will anybody else who has a different one. Him, being pretentious a bit, should not be so annoying for anyone to loose good manners about it
Amir it is time for you to exit this thread. With each post you dig your grave deeper with yet another nail placed in the coffin lid. You are not doing yourself any favors.
When I briefly checked your reviews very few high end companies actually send you their product to review. A bunch of mid-fi with customers sending you, apparently, the "higher end" stuff.
At least on this site, your 15 minutes (being generous) is up. Your lack of understanding is pitiful.
@amir_asr Off topic? Why, just checking your qualification and credentials. Did you mean destroying shareholder value along with other MSFT VPs until you finally got fired, oh, sorry "retired". Stock was only going down back then. But I am sure you were paid really well. But not engineers who actually did the work.
All while Nelson was making real gear. Not "measurements".
"Once it a while" according to time stamps means you jump back here as soon as someone mentions you. On Friday night LMAO.
Because you "have been measuring" while Nelson and Viktor built tons of gear people love, buy and keep for years. For some reason I trust their engineering chops more than yours. Why is that?
Why do you trust anyone? You are buying a product, not the person. It is not like Nelson is going to come to your house with that amplifier. He has built a product that competes with thousands of others. He doesn't provide an ounce of reliable information as to why his amplifiers are better sounding. He wants you to believe that they do and you do. Countless fellow audiophiles are yours who read ASR want reliable information and measurements give that to them. They also want to learn the underlying science and engineering which again, ASR provides.
In contrast, you seem to be wanting people to buy products just because of someone's reputation. Which you are welcome to do but then don't ask me to tell you who you are.
Why are you even here?
You are in a thread that is specifically about ASR and how a company attempted to shut down my evaluation of their product and that of another reviewer. Instead of commenting on that and defending the right of free press, some of you have drifted into misinformation and insults about me and work I do. So once in a while I answer when I get a notification about this thread and me being mentioned.
BTW, in your personal gear you list Levinson and not your "top measuring" gear. Why is that? How do they say at MSFT? Eat your own dogfood? Oh and what were great achievement of "Digital Media" at Microsoft? Like... none? Refusal to support lossless perhaps? Inability to even make a decent media player?
On your first question, I bought a great system some 15 years ago before I started measuring anything. The most important part of my system is Revel Salon 2 speakers. When John Atkinson of Stereophile was asked which speaker he likes after hundreds he had tested, he said Revel Salon 2, mentioning that "he almost cried when he had to return them."
My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping.
The amplifiers remain Mark Levinson. They produce 500 watts into 8 ohm and nearly twice as much into 4 ohm. I need the power to drive the rather insensitive Salon 2 and other speakers I test. Had I not own them, I would not buy them however and instead, would get a Hypex based amplifier.
Finally, on Microsoft, products my team designed have shipped in billions of products and I don't just mean Windows. Whenever you watch video and your bandwidth drops and so does the fidelity of the stream, that is technology we invented in the company we sold to Microsoft to adapt stream quality to bandwidth. We were pioneers in streaming, for which, I was proud to receive the 3rd Emmy award for technologies developed in my team:
@amir_asrYou can be measuring to kingdom come while we will look at your charts, shrug and go buy Pass Labs or BAT and not your beloved Topping.
Because you "have been measuring" while Nelson and Viktor built tons of gear people love, buy and keep for years. For some reason I trust their engineering chops more than yours. Why is that?
Why are you even here? Are you yearning for attention and confirmation of your "achievements"? Maybe you instead should star thinking why is that components with crappy parts and that are not even soldered right measure great - but sound like junk (which is what they are).
BTW, in your personal gear you list Levinson and not your "top measuring" gear. Why is that? How do they say at MSFT? Eat your own dogfood? Oh and what were great achievement of "Digital Media" at Microsoft? Like... none? Refusal to support lossless perhaps? Inability to even make a decent media player?
Honest question, couldn’t we say the same about you?
It would be a HUGE compliment to say I am charismatic on camera!!! 😁
Or are there no faults with your history in audio and measurements?
I am nearing 2,000 measurements of audio gear. Large number of major companies read ASR and participate in it. The level of scrutiny is off the charts. Despite all this, the number of times I have had to re-address a review can be counted on one hand.
The reason is simple: I run the same set of tests on every product category. The tests have been battle tested and blow away the meager or non-existent measurements from companies. I have also been measuring audio gear for 30+ years now. I am an electrical engineer and put myself through college repairing thousands of audio gear. My professional experience has spanned all aspects of modern audio technologies such as streaming, networking, operating systems, embedded development, chip design, PCB and analog layouts, safety and regulatory issues, user interface, performance, to name just a few.
This doesn't mean I know everything in the world but it does qualify me quite well to be doing what I am doing. When CEO or a company that has been removed from design for years claims that their product does X, when I measure it and it does Y, compared with my knowledge of the design and technology, then you should pay attention. Don't be dismissive and say the opposite.
Here is an example Amir doesn’t understand what he is measuring.
You say that but then post a video from the company and not my review and responses. If you watch them, you realize it is Paul who a) hasn't properly measured the product to see if it makes any difference in the output of your audio products and b) doesn't know his own product has current limiting so reduces amplifier performance. I have done no less than three videos on this:
Paul is charismatic on camera and does have good knowledge of audio. But be careful in believing everything he says. Above is a great example.
Well, I just watched pieces of few ASR videos. Let me tell you, it was not easy for me. The engineer does not how to insert the power cable into the socket (needed "fifty times greater force", must have measured it obviously), doesn't know that ground pin is longer then blades on audio cables.
Nothing wrong with longer ground connection. Or requiring more force. The problem is having a jacket around the plug that slides forward as you push it into the socket, making it not possible for all the pins to make a connection. This caused the cable to not even be functional until I realized what was happening! It is all explained in my video:
Well, I just watched pieces of few ASR videos. Let me tell you, it was not easy for me. The engineer does not how to insert the power cable into the socket (needed "fifty times greater force", must have measured it obviously), doesn't know that ground pin is longer then blades on audio cables. Just two items from my laundry list. It was really amazing experience watching it. I have to lay down now.
In my experience discussing with him for 7 days here , he confuse sound quality and electrical measures of the gear for 2 reason:
--- For one, it is his own selling pitch , he sell his site, products and expertise,,,
---The second one is he think acoustics is room acoustic.. Even if he know the difference between acoustics and room acoustic he had no idea what we hear when we hear a qualia and a physical property of the vibrating sound source in our own non linmear time domain because for him the ears is a deceptive tool compared to his electrical devices, period.
...
It is science : hearing theories are the core of acoustics...
He know nothing and dont want to know nothing about that ...
Fourier maps is the territory for him . Period...
But sorry Fourier maps are not the acoustic human territory ...😊
it is easy to understand the huge difference if we study.
It is an engineer in software and a seller and a gentleman ...😊
I do check ASR measurements, and I thank them for providing the service. However, this is the task for @amir_asrto figure out why some gear measures better than the other while sounding worse. Or that it measures great while consisting of crappy parts - Topping teardown is available for anyone to see.
ASR community reminds me of people who try to prove their point about sampling rates by quoting Nyquist theorem. While knowing little what does it actually proves. Or the difference between theory and actual implementation.
If Pass Labs measures not to Amir’s standards, perhaps Amir should write to Nelson Pass and ask. Or ask Viktor Khomenko in forums about BAT. I’d love to see their responses.
For some reason I trust Nelson with decades of products that people love and keep more than some Internet forum owner with a scope.
@rankaudioThe link you posted provides good food for thought. Another older video (can't find right now) with an Audio Precision Engineer explaining how easy it is to incorrectly measure and/or incorrectly interpret measurements is informative. An expensive piece of test gear does not guarantee accurate or meaningful measurements.
Amir, or any other reviewer, leaning on "industry standard" measurements to defend accuracy is interesting. Real Test and Measurement Engineers would call audio industry standards rudimentary and lacking rigorous correlation. Maybe that is good enough for audio. However, ASR and Amir routinely claim the scientific, accurate, unquestionable final authority high ground. The multiple posts from Amir in this thread are a perfect example of Amir disputing and dismissing anything not in agreement with his position. His minions must notify him so he can bombard a thread with the ASR belief system.
A very clarifying video that confirm for me the importance of the measurements that matter at the end and the most important : acoustics physical parameters of the speakers and of the room and ears/HTRF measures...
Any electrical measurements of a piece of gear must be interpreted in an electrical, physical and acoustical context and cannot alone define what is S.Q. at all .
Hearing theory matter. Gear synergy matter. Electrical design specs matter way less.
When basic engineering says they don’t make a difference, and we measure and show that nothing remotely has changed that is coming out of your amplifier, then that is that. It is impossible for there to be a sonic effect when the waveforms have not changed.
Except that "basic engineering" says there should be a difference. Your background is not electrical engineering so you wouldn't understand.
Amir measured a VTAST70 and complained about the bass but he used a pair of Infinity 253. The guy doesn’t even consider how to match gear. It’s like driving a Formula 1 car in a Baja race and wondering why it came in last place.
. I don't know what he's done at Microsoft but he is definitely not a circuit design
Hmm, let's see, a bachelor's degree, few years working as some programmer grunt and ran off into "management" ( the paper pusher and yapper) because even boneheaded programming must have been hard for this cat. No, this dude never designed a circuit in his life....must be way over his head.
Anyone can "use" a audio precision kit, read the manual and spit out garbage all day. I have one and I can train a kid in high-school to do it in flying colors.
Ask him to design/build a audio precision kit or a dac or whatever (Bear in mind, it is also an engineer with a higher aptitude level who does that), but, certainly not this "manager" (paper pusher).
Here is an example Amir doesn’t understand what he is measuring. I don't know what he's done at Microsoft but he is definitely not a circuit designer otherwise he
I like discussion about deep matter but silent contemplation will be better than uninvited answers to unasked questions.
My best to you sincerely ...
@mahgister, Get out of the house and pay a daily visit/walk the dog to some coffee shop near your house, preferably one where intellectuals, university professors, students, spiritual kooks, etc show up. Talk about some of these things in real life, listen to some music on your headphones, take your books, play some chess, start talking to the pretty ladies who show up at such places, etc...i.e., get youself entertained out of the house.
An online forum filled with grouchy old men may not be the right place/medium for the type of conversations circling in your head.
@mahgister, Get out of the house and pay a daily visit/walk the dog to some coffee shop near your house, preferably one where intellectuals, university professors, students, spiritual kooks, etc show up. Talk about some of these things in real life, listen to some music on your headphones, take your books, play some chess, start talking to the pretty ladies who show up at such places, etc...i.e., get youself entertained out of the house.
An online forum filled with grouchy old men may not be the right place/medium for the type of conversations circling in your head.
@erik_squiresgreat topic and post, agree with everything you've said, I own some B&W 804 D4s and the measurements are not very complimentary. "One wonders what the B&W engineers are thinking" is the gist of the measurements'' crowd's reaction to the speaker, yet lots of seasoned audiophile like me continue to buy B&W 800 series speakers, so the B&W engineers must be doing something right. Just a thought and my 2 cents the ago ole measurements vs listening/taste debate.
You’re not doing yourself any favors, in my opinion, and I’m pretty sure most of us are tired of your almost incomprehensible ramblings and quit reading your long-winded, verbose replies awhile ago.
Audiophiles needs to understand a bit acoustics, objectivists as subjectivists to stay less ignorant and understand what to do to improve greatly any system at any price without upgrading blindly when it is not necessary ...
It all still boils down to that oh-so-common Achilles heel of N = 1. For listening pleasure, that’s all any audiophile needs.
What we measure when we hear a music piece is only a Fourier map of the sonic event. the "waves" associated with the sound qualia. The sound qualia is not interpreted yet by the ears/brain/body.
This sonic fundamental event is a "timbre" among other acoustics factors revealing to our consciousness the qualitative information coming from this vibrating sound source states ( empty full, peirced with holes, in wood , in metal the list goes on ).The sound source in vibration can be a ripe fruit or a violin anything .
But also the timbre affect our own emotional and physical body in precise location which are universal among cultures independant of the music styles we are all affected in the same way as humans in our own body. See the artcles.
What is the relation of this with Amir ideology ?
For Amir the Fourier maps of the "waves" tell all the story and with his few set of electrical measures all the audio story is told about sound qualia...listening is delusional and illusory to the point any claims by an audiophile is pure hallucination with no objective value ...
This techno cultism evacuate any qualitative information and emotions as secondary and superfluous to evaluate sound , a tool overcome our body/brain /ears value ...
The 4 articles above which are pure science research , not audio magazine marketing, contradict this ideology which is techno cultism reduction of man power and his control in the case of Amir to sell something in the case of big corporations to control humanity ...
i stay short to spare the patience of some ... 😊
Guess what your own brain body will detect if on a sound vibrating element in the chain of the physical events implied by the sound experience i put a piece of shungite or alternatively a piece of quartz ?
A qualitative new state informing us of a change in the audio system not measured by Amir but existing objectively though for anyone brave enough to do experiments ...
The subjective and the objective are not completely separable in the sound phenomena ...if we did it for the sake of science or for our pleasure we loose something : the object of acoustics science.😊
I just solved a problem with ricevs here in a gentleman manner but clearly ...
Sorry but what if someone attacked you publicly about your character?
Will you invade his private mailbox?
I never attacked people but i answer directly immediately and where the post was : publicly .. ...
It is my own way to never entertain grudges and makes thing clear...😊
It is why just today , my problem with Hilde was so well solved i could thank him for an information he gave which is useful to all including me ... Only petty mind keep grudges... I am not such ...
Then learn this :
I pay people with what they gave me : kindness and a less soft reply but always a rational one if they attack any person here even when it is not me ...
Discussion here must be rational with no character attack . Period .
By the way i dont have rivals...
Read the four articles above and if you dont fall off your chair because it is important matter i will be surprized...
I dont consider anyone here as rivals but as friends...
The problem is some people dont like "intellectuals" or suffer from inferiority complex it seems... And are not interested by deep science ..
Hearing theories values and aspects are deep science and matter for all audiophiles...
This was my point linking together these 4 articles especially in this thread matter ...
Instead of thanks some attacked my character ...😊 and it was not Amir who always was a gentleman ...
@mahgister, Why don’t you and this other son of some eternal mother, hilde, etc (all your apparent rivals) resolve your differences in private messages? Might be easier that way...
@mahgister, Why don't you and this other son of some eternal mother, hilde, etc (all your apparent rivals) resolve your differences in private messages? Might be easier that way...
Ok you seem reading your last post a person of good faith...
I perhaps reacted too much...
But you wrote yourself in your ego bubble...😊
My discussion here was not about how to improve our system as you said nor about tweaks , this thread is about Amir ideology and ASR ...
Mahgister,
I don’t need to read articles about sound to know how to listen. I know how to tweak my system and room pretty darn well
Then you missed the point about my posts and artcles claiming that i was pretentious..
I just gave my opinion about why Amir is wrong grounded in acoustics hearing theory...
My articles are pure science not audio magazine articles about tweaks ..
I really don’t care that Amir and the like believe the way they do. I don’t NEED to prove him wrong.
Your claim here is contradicted by your own post just before criticizing my "ego" where you explained why you are not OK with Amir ideas...
The problem is your argument are simplistic repeated already by other people other than you before ..
My arguments are deeper grounded in science articles and in hearing theory then other people than you can be interested by the thread matter if you pretend now to be not interested by them ...
Then why attacking my alleged "arrogance" or pretentious ego? if my goal was not so much contradicting Amir because he dont discuss with me in this thread anyway , but my intention was to communicate to all people here new facts in acoustics very recent one you dont know yourself , neither Amir nor anyone here ...
I had the right to communicate objective discoveries without being attacked by someone who claim that i spoke by arrogance or only for my "ego" satisfaction...
For what reason do you speak yourself ? As Amir you are an expert with a site and something you sell ( your service) no ?
Me i spoke and dont sell anything , i spoke here as an ordinary educated audiophile ... No other motives... You cannot say that...
What are we wanting with the behavior and feelings that we put out. Are we defending ourself or are we being of service?.
Now before questioning my motivation why not questioning your own attack on my ego alleged pretentious claims?
Are you yourself so high in wisdom that you can decide for all people in this thread which arguments benefit to all and which arguments does not benefit to all ?
I dont think so...
I decided myself that new scientific facts matter and must be known, especially if they can be used as rational argument against an ideology dominating the world right now :
manterialism and nominalism and techno-cultism and transhumanism ...
Then the new facts i asked people to read and studies in the 4 articles above had nothing to do with your non sensical "peace and love" discourse after your attack on my "ego" ... What was your true motives ?😊
You seems a good person then i overeacted perhaps but i dont regret my reaction because it seems you must learn yourself a lesson here...
`"I am not alone to own an "ego" ...At least i dont sell anything to anyone here unlike you and Amir , i only want to discuss in good faith ...
I will repeat also that even if it was tough discussion with Amir he was a gentleman by the way and never attacked my personality and character...
i am happy to say at the end that you seems also a gentleman at last ...
Thanks for the clarification but myself too i needed to clarify .....
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
