Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
Might be where you come from but ASR has no advertising, sponsorships, or any commercial relationships with any company. My youtube channel likewise has no ads despite having nearly 50K subscribers and fully qualifying for such. So I don’t make a penny whether you go there or not. This forum has advertising so we are all helping defray the cost of running it by our posts here. |
I love it, since the philistines at ASR overmoderate their site they now come over here spewing their vitriol. Hey, it probably sends more traffic over there. It’s all about the hits and Benjamins. Nothing like spending 100K on a Klippel and listening to our rich recorded heritage on a $200 DAC. These folks have their priorities just right. |
Oops. I misspoke. It was the Transparent OPUS cable ($46000), not MIT. Here is the link. "And to cut to the chase, Mike could not identify the Monster from the Opus MM with any accuracy (nor the reverse, which also would have been a positive result if he had been consistently wrong) using our testing methodology. We stopped the test a little less than halfway through, I think we got through 8 A/Bs before we gave up." And there were four total listeners, not three.
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@amir_asr - Which Monster cable and were the cable gauges similar? Bruce Brisson was Monster's cable designer prior to starting MIT, so that's not surprising. I have Monster's M2.4 cable and the M2 series is a fantastic used bargain and still a solid cable. Cable designers definitely overuse the trick where their budget side is a higher gauge and gets thicker as you spend significantly more. |
@ricevs - Something I found interesting is that I actually tried a SMSL SU-9 PRO, Topping D90 III and VMW (SMSL) D2se2. They measure very, very similarly in Amir's tests. You'd think they sound exactly alike, right? Not a chance... The SU-9 PRO has a very sharp edge (to the point I got a headache when first listening) and odd oscillation around instruments and some vocals, which made some parts of the soundstage fuzzy. The best measuring DAC, the Topping D90 III, was absolute poo. High frequencies on the D90 III sounded blunted which made everything sound flat and dull. The VWV is actually a decent DAC and I'd personally recommend it as a solid budget choice, but would never know it's the best choice based on Amir's testing alone. Another thing I found interesting is the ASR recommended PCM filter is Linear Fast. If you go on ASR or elsewhere, people will blindly recommend this setting, simply because of Amir's reviews. I found two things through my own testing... First, I was getting a speaker pop from the DAC cutting off highs when leaving the DAC on 0.0 dB, so I had to turn down the volume before turning off the volume setting. Second, Filter Off actually sounds best to me in my system, despite this being the setting that's not recommend. I did order a Laiv for fun, which is arriving this week. Hard to say without seeing schematics, but the PCBs seem to be designed very similarly to MSB's entry-level DAC with shorter R2R ladders. I wouldn't be surprised if that was its 'inspiration' and we eventually get a comparison saying the Laiv sounds very similar to a MSB Discrete (with 1 power supply and stock USB input). |
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Hey! Not all sh!t smells bad. Here is the scent of my speakers: "The Salon2 demonstrated jaw-dropping dynamics in my listening room. I heard no grain or compression until the amplifier ran out of steam. The Salon2 played synthesizer and bass-drum crescendos so well that I kept cranking up the volume.....The Ultima Salon2 remained in complete control, falling silent after each percussion note. Cymbals sounded startlingly clear, utterly transparent, and sweet....The Salon2s had a spatial precision that I normally associate only with my Quad ESL-989 electrostatic speakers. Nor was the Revel's ability to deliver large, even amounts of sonic power into my listening room done at the expense of the most subtle musical details. the Revel Ultima Salon2 is the best-performing, most natural-sounding full-range loudspeaker I have auditioned in my listening room since I started writing for Stereophile in 1984. ..... The Revel design team has smoothed the Salon1's upper midrange while retaining that award-winning speaker's powerful bass extension, timbral accuracy, and superb dynamics. The result is an open and transparent top end, an utterly neutral and grain-free midrange, and bass that is extended and pitch-perfect. The Ultima Salon2 does all this while sounding completely neutral, with top-to-bottom smoothness, coherence, and remarkable resolution of detail." "Conclusion No loudspeaker is perfect, but Revel’s Ultima Salon2 is the closest I’ve found. Its bass and high-frequency performance are beyond reproach, and its midrange deserves high praise for its neutrality, transparency, and speed. Some might wish for a little more of the midrange richness of, say, the Magico V2, but this would be more about desiring a certain type of sound rather than indicating any deficiency in the Salon2. From top to bottom, The Salon2 is an ultraprecise, remarkably refined, full-range transducer that delivers nothing short of state-of-the-art sound while making fewer compromises than any other speaker I’ve heard." I am quoting sources that are in your camp. Do tell: what is "sh!t" about my speakers? |
Is that why MikeL and the two people with him couldn't tell his MIT Oracle cable from Monster in blind testing? Granted, half a million dollars is not a lot of money to spend on an audio system. How much should he have spent to hear that difference with ears alone??? |
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Amir would argue with a rock. This entire thread has proven nothing. NOTHING. Except, as we all expected, ASR listens only to measurements and not the equipment being measured. That, and Amir's ego is the size of Mt Everest. Maybe if everyone just ignored him, he'd stay in his cage over at ASR where they can argue that their $200 dongle DAC sounds just as good as a Holo May KTE, pat each other on the back and pretty much be satisfied lying to themselves. After all, if the rest of their system is complete sh!t, it probably would sound about the same, and how could they know any better? Kind of sad, but ignorance is bliss.
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All of what bigtwin says is true, but what about the younger or newer hobbyists that may be swayed by Amir and ASR? Someone needs to disagree for the record. I am sure many of these Agon members would visit ASR and voice their opinions but it seems they will get banned. I for one applaud Agon for not banning Amir. I think this entire thread does him no credit. Plus I think it is his right. |
@bigtwin +1 |
@ghasley Thanks, but the credit should really go to Marcus Aurelius 121 AD - 180 AD "If any external thing causes you distress, it is not the thing itself that troubles you, but your own judgement about it. And this you have the power to eliminate now" GO OILERS ! |
@bigtwin +1 and well said. |
@toronto416 Hows the heat dome? IMHO, what would have made this thread a spectacular success, once it turned into an Amir - ASR bashing contest, would have been if it only got 50 views and 5 posts. Anyone interested in Amir - ASR is welcome to head on over to that site and join the conversation. All the nonsense taking place on this thread only points out, to me anyway, the number of people who have not learned two of the tenants on living a happy life. 1. If something is beyond your control, like Amir - ASR, and it does not directly impact your life, then you ignore it and give it no further thought. 2. Recognise that nothing someone else says or does can create a feeling within you. Only your chosen reaction can do that. Therefore, all these members who are ranting about Amir - ASR and displaying a lot of hostility, are all doing that by themselves and to themselves. Amir - ASR has nothing to do with it. If Agon members would be a trifle bit more Stoic in their thoughts and behaviors, this thread would have dried up and blown away a long time ago. Or, stayed on the topic of speaker design as was first intended? GO OILERS ! |
Yes, yes, we know. Here’s a exceptionally high quality female vocals reference track tailor made just for you, something for all your listening tests and continued success. You could easily hear 0.000001% sinad differences with it, i’d think. Crank it up on repeat in your test garage and statistically significance will start pouring like the Niagara.
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Just curious, why does anyone give a shyte about ASR or Amir…to what end?
ASR is the equivalent of a guns and ammo forum and they cant figure out why it isnt relative to the folks in Sandy Hook…and the folks in Sandy Hook just want to be left alone. Peace and tranquility are hard to measure and even harder to communicate. |
If anyone tried to take over an ASR thread like Amir has done here, they would not get very far before the minions piled on with name calling and innuendo far worse than any comments in this thread. Also very likely would end up banned from ASR. @toronto416 nailed it that Amir always has to win every argument. He is the Sheldon of the Audio Hobby world. Oh - Oh- Oh- Oh, somebody on the Internet is wrong, I must correct them. Both shocked and disappointed the Moderators have allowed Amir to turn this thread into nothing more than a display of chest thumping ego promotion of ASR. |
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After over 1,000 posts and almost 50,000 views of this thread what have we learned about Amir? -he only listens to half of the audio equipment that he tests. Auditioning is irrelevant in assessing audio equipment as measurements are all that matter. -he does not listen with his eyes, nor does he measure with his ears. -he is always right and always wins every argument - point by point. -he is spending an inordinate amount of time here on Audiogon proving himself and puffing his chest. He is neglecting ASR. It is time for him to go back to ASR. |
@bigtwin Good to see you’re a hockey fan. I’m rooting for the Panthers so if they win the Cup I can feel slightly better that the Rangers lost to the eventual Cup champ |
@ricevs Not certain what you mean about an inexpensive system. Don't own a Topping DAC and my cables have a brand name. If you listen and do hear a difference that's cool - human nature in fact. I used to think that spending more money equated to better sound and I did spend - mostly on this site (member since 2009) - but I refuse to be hood winked by subjective claims about PRAT etc. I believe in science and will probably be spending more time on sites like ASR in the future. The alternatives appear increasingly bleak. |
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I recently compared CDs ripped to the internal SSD on my Eversolo A8 to the same music from Qubuz at 16/44. So both are going through the same DAC. The ripped music sounds quite a bit better than the streamed. It’s not subtle. I highly doubt that any measurement of the sound would show the important difference. The ripped music sounded cleaner, crisper, more present. The streaming sounded muddier and had less depth. I would love to see the measurements that show this. They don't.
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I trust what you say. You are one of the few who listen that do not hear differences....probably 5%.....just a guess. Nothing wrong with that or you.....it is all good. Enjoy your inexpensive system. It is a monetary blessing that you cannot hear more expensive gear. The Topping stacks plus generic cables game is very, very good. I could enjoy it....at least casually....till I had to start tweaking it and modding every single thing......OMG...I cannot stop....the goosebumps keep getting bigger and bigger! This is not about faith.....this is about experience. If you listen and do not hear a difference....then that is your experience. If you listen and hear a difference then YOU KNOW HOW THEY COMPARE. We are talking experience.....not theory. Love your experience......Trust your experience.....be open to new experiences....for that is the fun of life.....finding a new treasure. |
Wow, Amir has so much time that he can post junk posts here over and over again. He has no knowledge....he does not listen. Anyone can hear the differences in cables, preamps, amps and DACs with one listen. Is he deaf? Go peddle your philosophy somewhere else. Most here know that listening rules and it is easy to hear differences.....we don’t need no dang super blind tests. The statistics prove that Amir is in a self serving ego loop. This is what the statistics point to.....he he. His site is not innovative in any way. It does not promote better sound. It is an advertisement for mid fi.....sort of like the "perfect sound forever" thang when CD came out. Now it is "Amirs approved low cost high measuring things are all you ever need".......and just like the CD thing....it is all made up and a lie. The reason he gets so many hits on his site is that he measures things......and we all like to look at graphs. I am being sent a Nilai amp and am going to mod it and have fun with it. I wanted to see what others said about it so I did a search.....and one of the things that came up was an ASR review.....so, I became one of the millions who go there and looked at the measurements.....did not learn a thing....just measurements....could of just read the specs on the Hypex website. No comments on the sound or how it compared to anything.....except that it was "transparent" because it measures well. All amps sound different......please listen and get back to us....or are you going to keep posting nonsense till you die? Yes, there is truly nothing to discuss.....it is all the same loop.....over and over again....Amir (who does not listen) versus 250K audiophiles (who do listen)......who will win? Stay tuned for another chapter tomorrow in this ever going saga......you don’t want to miss this folks....it has real drama (not) and a lot of fun laughs (not). I try to make fun......but I don’t think he is laughing. I hope you all are enjoying these "hot" days. Peace be with you all. |
He was noting that you all never test with your ears alone. So best not keep asking me about me listening.
There is nothing to discuss. You all need to start to listen properly without your eyes, matching levels, and producing statistically significant results. Otherwise the listening tests just serve the companies that want to reach in your wallet and lighten your load. |
That's because they don't understand the power of measurements and science of psychoacoustics showing how many are transparent to the source, obviating the need for listening tests. When there are gray areas, or I suspect people will use this as an excuse to dismiss the review, I listen. Here is an example of the latter, the Belden ICONOCLAST XLR Cable Review
Iconoclast CLR Cable Listening Tests I even performed a null test with music and linked to the files in the review. Another example is the Review of CHORD GROUNDARRAY "Noise" Filter/Grounding
This is a dongle you attach to unused ports on your system. It has no circuit in it, passive or active. It just takes the ground connection and terminates it in some material. It would violate the rules of the universe if it did what they claim! Of course measurements showed that it did nothing. Here are my listening tests: Chord GroundArray Listening Tests
The little dongle costs a cool $795! Imagine how many real things you could buy for that much money to improve your enjoyment of everyday life. Should I waste my time constantly doing these listening tests when the results are so conclusive over and over again? Where is the responsibility of the company in all of this? Why don't they assemble a group of audiophiles and test them properly to show these things make a difference? Where is the real engineering and physics explanation of any of these things making a difference? As I said, you all need to be more skeptical here. There a ton of people taking advantage of your improper listening tests that results in every device making a difference no matter what they do. All this energy put toward me producing more data on these devices yet you don't apply a fraction of that to companies that make these products to prove their claim. To prove they know something, anything, about engineering. |
"The second is in the context of reviewing products. But even the second statement means many hours of listening given the 200 to 300 products I test every year" What the 2nd statement suggests is that you do in fact listen, however the scope of your listening relative to reviews is limited in focus which is comes into play with what folks have been critical about in this thread your 2nd statement ""I hear you but where do you draw the line? I listen to all speakers and headphones I review. I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review. As you go further upstream, I listen less and less."
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Every one one of us loves stereo and music. To be a reviewer, you need to know more than average listener about science and engineering of the technology you are reviewing. Sitting in front of the camera and posting audio illusions to make money from ads and sponsorships just spreads misinformation. You should be more on guard than this. Ask them to show you what training they have in being a critical listener. Ask them what formal experience they have. If they are just you with a camera, then that is useless. Just because they believe in the same myths as you with respect to cost translating into sound fidelity, doesn't make them remotely correct. |
Assuming you are talking about me, I have already post results of double blind ABX tests in this very thread. I also have a tutorial on how to pass them and examples within which I have post before. Here it is again:
I have post the results of many blind test challenges that none of you would dare to take let alone pass. Here is an example by Ethan Winer of generational loss of DAC/ADC: ------- Here is a high-res challenge produced by AIX Records: foo_abx 1.3.4 report ----- Here is a challenge that I would not be able to pass 320 Kbps MP3 against original: foo_abx 1.3.4 report So please do some homework before posting these things. |
The first statement is about everyday listening and enjoying music. The second is in the context of reviewing products. But even the second statement means many hours of listening given the 200 to 300 products I test every year. |
Excellent eye fellas...Fraudiosaurus Rex got caught again...🤣😁 |
These 2 statements don't seem to lineup "I listen to these DACs for hours and hours" "I hear you but where do you draw the line? I listen to all speakers and headphones I review. I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review. As you go further upstream, I listen less and less."
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