Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

Had a member send me $30,000 worth of CHORD DACs/Resmpler/Cables for testing. I asked him how fast I needed to test them and to my surprise, he said to take my time.  And that he had bought a Topping DAC and couldn't tell the difference between them so he was going to use that until I returned his gear.  Who is right?  You or him?  Measurements demonstrated by the way that the two DACs would sound the same but of course, Topping was more than 30 times cheaper.

@amir_asr 

I don't doubt someone enjoyed it and, as I said, I thought the SMSL DACs were just fine, but the D90 III sounded like poo to me.  I compared the D90 III directly against the SMSL SU-9 Pro, VWV D1se2 and even a Yamaha  RX-A8A.  In theory, they should have all sounded exactly alike, but they were only 'similar' with their own noticeable faults.  Any one of the numerous differences could account for what I heard and, of course, the unit I received could have been faulty.  I'm not willing to live with something that I gave a fair shot and didn't enjoy.

Firmware updates are rarely needed on DACs.  When they are, they are absolutely provided by the likes of Topping and SMSL.  Now, high-end companies, that is another matter.

Firmware updates can be found on Topping's site, but not SMSL's.  There are exactly 0 DAC firmware updates listed via SMSL's site.  I am aware they're buried in dark corners of the internet, but they're not exactly easily accessible.

SMSL Firmware Page

The dude you are responding to spent $25,000 on his DAC.  The sales tax alone would buy you not one, but two of the best DACs Topping makes!  And it is not like he can get support from anyone local.

I'm am huge fun of MBL because their North American CEO invited me to a private audition then gave me his entire evening to listen to their flagship products, which was nearly a $1mil room!  I have his business card and can message any time for support, which they'd coordinate with Germany for me.  I bought their 6010D preamp ($32k MSRP) shortly after because it sounds great and I like the big shiny gold knobs.  It's also a simple design that has remained relatively similar >30 years.  Am I wrong for spending my money any which way I please?  I'm financially very comfortable in my early 40s, it didn't come out of investments and have $0 in debt.

You can also buy them from Amazon and if there are early mortality, get a refund or replacement.

I'm happy to call out Apos, an authorized seller for those DACs.  Nowhere on their sales pages nor listings do they mention their refurbs are "final sale items."  You would have to have foresight to actually check their FAQ by specifically searching for their policy, which should be listed on the listing itself:

Apos Certified Refurbished Page

Apos Certified FAQ

What happens if the unit dies after the return window?  Plenty of stories online with people waiting months and paying costly international shipping to get their Topping/SMSL repaired or replaced.

Oops.  I misspoke.  It was the Transparent OPUS cable ($46000), not MIT.  Here is the link.

"And to cut to the chase, Mike could not identify the Monster from the Opus MM with any accuracy (nor the reverse, which also would have been a positive result if he had been consistently wrong) using our testing methodology. We stopped the test a little less than halfway through, I think we got through 8 A/Bs before we gave up."

And there were four total listeners, not three.

@amir_asr - Thank you.  I couldn't find a reference to the exact model of Monster cables, but there's a mention of a $1.2k price point.  Most likely they may have been the M2.x series or Sigma Retro Gold, which are both thick copper wires with gold terminations.  Frankly, this doesn't surprise me as they're comparable, aside from price and a carbon fiber 'vibration dampener.' 

This may be shocking to some, but when I lived in a tiny studio apartment in NYC, I experimented with alternatives and ordered Mil-Spec wire meant for spacecraft (silver coated copper in teflon) and appliance wire (12 gauge solid core copper).  I ended using the appliance wire with excellent results, although it was an absolute pain to work and didn't look too pleasant.  That said, I do enjoy fancy-looking cables and silver solid core for analog signals.

I do think there's some degree of truth to the marketing claims, but they're usually misunderstood and overblown.  For example, the recent trend of using gold wires as speaker cables (where gold is preferable for applications where corrosion is a concern, but poorer conductor than copper) or Rhodium plating everything.

When you set the filter to "off," the output level jumps up by some 4 dB.  This easily results in better perceived detail, air, etc.  This is why it is critical to match levels in such listening test comparisons. 

Failing that, you want to pay attention to measurements as it not only tells you about higher volume, it also shows that "off" starts to cut off the output starting from just 5 kHz.  There is a whopping 4.5 dB droop by the time you get to 20 kHz! If you had matched levels, you would have hopefully heard the much attenuated high frequency response.  Granted, some confuse this with "less digital" which it is not.

I should clarify that I was getting the odd tweeter cut-out across all filters and even when volume was set at -3.0 dB.  Admittedly, I don't measure as often as I should, but I think there may have been have been something else at play and possibly some conflict with my speakers' high pass filter and the D1se2's drop off in the higher frequencies.  I did cross reference frequency response to troubleshoot and it did go away once volume was set less than -5.0dB.  I also get what you're saying and the boost to the more pleasant frequencies may have worked well with my preferences and/or speakers.  Overall, it's a great entry into DACs and would recommend.  (I picked it up on eBay for $300 and tested in my MBL system with excellent results.)

I guess my point was that measurements are a good baseline, but listening and testing play an often enjoyable, sometimes frustrating role in the hobby.  My layperson observation is that people often take measurements as absolutes without diagnosing their own issues within their circuit.

Isn't this similar to audiophile marketing half-truths?  I do, however, value the idea of teaching people to think and make their own judgement calls.

Here's a typical example of "science" on ASR: 

All-in-One snake oil: Digital to Digital "converter" nonsense

Might I suggest the name be updated to Political Science Review?

@botrytis  - My intention wasn't to highlight the subject, but the typical responses.  The trajectory of that thread is commonplace across the entire site (as is on r/audiophile on Reddit) and almost encouraged within that community (not by Amir).  If you read the thread, there's an actual electrical engineer with subject matter expertise getting berated because he's defending DDCs.

Feel free to jump on ASR and suggest DACs have specific sound signatures and prove me wrong.  You'll get a flood of responses telling you all DACs sound the same.  If it were really about scientific analysis, it'd be about exploration, debate and proving/disproving a hypothesis.  Unfortunately, ASR is just toxic.  Yes, there are toxic people on every forum (it's the internet after all), but it's on nearly every ASR thread.  The site could really benefit from moderation and discouraging being the echo chamber of a handful of curmudgeons. That's exactly why I won't create an account nor plan to participate in any discussion there.

@steve59 - That's somewhat my impression also as there is a lot of faux science and shallow claims.  I've tried wading through a few threads to see if I can learn something (like optimizing streaming audio quality) and it always ends with some guy saying digital audio hasn't improved since the 80s and people are wasting their time/money then a group echoes those sentiments and it's the end of the thread.  I prefer diyAudio when I'm trying to actually learn or repair something technical.  There's a valid reason why someone may want a statement piece strictly for aesthetic purposes, which most audiophiles understand.  That said, Amir's older posts tend to encourage bad behavior, while his newer posts have called for civility more often than not.  Something else to be aware of is there are plenty of people that are monetizing this mindset, with ASR having its own dealers within its forum and also the Chinese audio firms pushing products into their reviews.  It's not much different than Audiogon.  Anyone thinking ASR is a nonprofit strictly involved in research is very naive.

@mapman - I went down a Chinese DAC rabbit hole recently, just to see how they compare to all their chart-topping ASR measurements.  The Topping D90 III was one of the worst pieces of garbage I've heard, despite being at the top of Amir's charts.  Sound is rounded off and utterly flattened to where it sounds worse than my much older Sabre-based DAC on my Yamaha A8.  ASR members claim all DACs sound the same --there's even a thread dedicated to it!-- and I've found this to be the opposite of truth.  In fairness, the SMSL/VMV DACs aren't bad for the price, but have their own weaknesses and even ones within the line with the same ESS chip sound slightly different, which ASR does not acknowledge.

Just wait until those ASR guys learn that much of science is based on human sense (and has its own biases)!  Boy, if only those kids could read...

Leistner describes his job as "massaging atoms." He works by hand because he believes — and the most advanced computer imaging has confirmed — that no machine can match his touch.

Wired - The Search for a More Perfect Kilogram

So many opinions on how Amir & his moderators treat posters who don’t fall in line with the forum.

Funny thing, I posted a thread here about my experience of testing some AQ Dragon power cords where I didn’t hear a difference...

...I was told I was boring, just send the cables back. I was mocked for inviting my neighbors to listen & give their opinion. Then it was agreed by many that the problem was that my speakers were too close to the wall behind them, apparently just inches away (they were 48" from the wall behind them). I was told the problem was that I have a tin ear (ignoring all of the other people who came by to compare cables & heard no difference, including one man who manufactured speaker/XLR/power cables & brought his by).

@dwcda - Most people within that thread had actually encouraged your observations, agreeing that if you don't hear a difference you should send the cables back and not waste money.  Your initial response was taken as sarcasm by one individual and it seemed to have kicked off an argument between you two, which you're attributing to represent all of Audiogon.  Some unsolicited advice I can offer is to not take it personally and not to dwell on the matter.  It's the internet.  Your time and focus are better spent elsewhere.

Personally, I can say I've spend the equivalent of a new well-equipped automobile on Audiogon and AM classifieds and appreciate the personal experiences shared on forums like Audiogon that have led to those purchases.  I've met great people during these exchanges and it still amazes me when I wire a large sum and get the thing I ordered in the exact condition described on an Audiogon listing.  I am much younger than most typical audiophiles, but my first observation was/is that they're an extremely opinionated, but well-intentioned bunch.  I don't get the same impression of the folks at ASR.  They remind me of some of the bitter critical theorists I've had the displeasure of meeting whilst in academia.

To sum up, I interpreted that thread much differently than you are describing it and would encourage you to move on.

Enjoy the trip. Music and audio can be a wonderful journey despite the best efforts of those who will try to convince you that you cant trust your own senses. Even more ridiculous is these people may attempt to convince you they have your best interest at they discourage experimentation.

@audition__audio - Assuming your response was directed at me, but appreciate the wisdom and understand where you're coming from. 

My take is the strong responses to ASR (and particularly to Amir) are due to arrogance, hubris and half-truths.  People have been including measurements in reviews long before ASR existed and will continue to do so after.  Gene with Audioholics comes to mind and to the best of my knowledge, Stereophile has always included measurements also (and neither has received such negative community blowback).

If all parties involved were being totally honest, they'd admit the digital side has rapidly evolved in the past few years due to a maturation of technology, which has made affordable options more accessible.  I think that's why people are getting rubbed the wrong way by ASR folks since they're claiming to have started a revolution when the revolution has already happened, is done and we're onto the next one...  --It wasn't until fairly recent where storage and networking have reached a point where it made business sense to stream lossless content, which was then followed by more mainstream hardware to do so.  Audiophiles also seem more open to directly marketed Chinese products following years of Parasound, Cambridge Audio, multiple headphone brands, etc. building goodwill--  Just to draw a parallel, it'd be like one of the video review YouTubers claming they've influenced TV manufacturers to make 4k go mainstream when its major influences were actually Blu-Ray, Netflix and gaming. 

Personally, it's been a fun journey so far and having a resource like Audiogon has been an invaluable resource. 

@tomic601 - Thank you! 

I never said any reviewer hated a Topping. Generally, AS I STATED BEFORE they think it is very good and one of the best in its price class......that is it....As soon as you go above its price class......it fails. You really need to take a class in searching.....you seem to only find the old reviews that mirror your point of view. The guy at Soundnews used to love the Topping DAC.....now he is climbing the ladder. He thinks the Laiv DAC is the king under $5K but there are other DACs that do some things better (for more money).....but way better than a Topping. The guy at iiWi feels exactly the same way. This guy is super intelligent and his reviews are clear as a bell......this guy can hear......of course, he listens. Here is a review of the latest Topping compared to others in its price range.....If you search his Youtube website you will find that he also thinks the new Laiv DAC is really out there. These guys are climbing the money ladder and as they do.....they get better sound that leaves the lower high end (Topping DACs, etc.) in the dust.

@ricevs - Something I found interesting is that I actually tried a SMSL SU-9 PRO, Topping D90 III and VMW (SMSL) D2se2.  They measure very, very similarly in Amir's tests.  You'd think they sound exactly alike, right?  Not a chance...  The SU-9 PRO has a very sharp edge (to the point I got a headache when first listening) and odd oscillation around instruments and some vocals, which made some parts of the soundstage fuzzy.  The best measuring DAC, the Topping D90 III, was absolute poo.  High frequencies on the D90 III sounded blunted which made everything sound flat and dull.  The VWV is actually a decent DAC and I'd personally recommend it as a solid budget choice, but would never know it's the best choice based on Amir's testing alone.

Another thing I found interesting is the ASR recommended PCM filter is Linear Fast.  If you go on ASR or elsewhere, people will blindly recommend this setting, simply because of Amir's reviews.  I found two things through my own testing...  First, I was getting a speaker pop from the DAC cutting off highs when leaving the DAC on 0.0 dB, so I had to turn down the volume before turning off the volume setting.  Second, Filter Off actually sounds best to me in my system, despite this being the setting that's not recommend.

I did order a Laiv for fun, which is arriving this week.  Hard to say without seeing schematics, but the PCBs seem to be designed very similarly to MSB's entry-level DAC with shorter R2R ladders.  I wouldn't be surprised if that was its 'inspiration' and we eventually get a comparison saying the Laiv sounds very similar to a MSB Discrete (with 1 power supply and stock USB input).

Is that why MikeL and the two people with him couldn't tell his MIT Oracle cable from Monster in blind testing? 

@amir_asr - Which Monster cable and were the cable gauges similar?  Bruce Brisson was Monster's cable designer prior to starting MIT, so that's not surprising.  I have Monster's M2.4 cable and the M2 series is a fantastic used bargain and still a solid cable.

Cable designers definitely overuse the trick where their budget side is a higher gauge and gets thicker as you spend significantly more. 

Was it Bruce Brisson who developed the first Monster ICs the M300? That was the best cable for the price although it had soft, rolled off highs and limited resolution but it had a smooth, warm mid-range. Today, a comparable inflation adjusted cable that is extremely superior is Bedlen/Blue Jeans ICs (well, the XLRs). I use their XSRs in a $200,000+ system.

I heard 3 levels of Transparent speaker/system cable at an LA Show where the more expensive the system (up to $750K), the more awful the sound. Don’t even mention High Fidelity cabling with those horrible giant in-line magnets.

As to the Topping DACs, I’ve now heard 5, mostly early ones with the super high resolution but poor musical sound. The Topping D70s turns out to be their best. My best friend uses it in a modest priced system anchored by Von Schweikert VR35 export speakers. In my system with Lampizator Poseidon DAC/pre-amp which is $25K, the Poseidon is NOT 50X better than the Topping. Maybe 30% to 50%. I paid more as it was designed as a pre-amp and the Topping pre-amp is awful (probably just a cheap op-amp). As a DAC, this Topping is super musical osounding. It lacks the dynamic contrast, soundstage width and depth and music separation (instruments/voices) of the Poseidon but unless there is a head to head ccomparison, it’s a tremendous bargain and physically unimposing. The SOTA DAC costs much more than a superb one. I also own a (near or actual) SOTA CD transport in the Jay’s Audio CDt3 Mk3. For $5K, it is 5X to 10X less expensive than exotic French and Swiss transports or even upper cost Esoteric units.

@fleschler 

I’m not familiar with all of Monster’s models, but found an article that talks about the relationship and history. I’m assuming every model since those early designs is some variation (aside from the mainstream Monster products that were sold at Best Buy) based on those patents. I also have some bulk Powerline Signature 400 cable and it’s comparable to what Furutech is selling for many, many times the price.

Stereophile: Noel Lee Interview

I’m a bit skeptical of those listening tests since there are pretty easy ways to game them. The Kimber one at Axpona compared also their cheapest (thinnest) cable with their high end. I like Kimber and own a run, but a better test would be to compare a similar gauge wire.

I haven’t heard the D70, but heard their D90 III and it was terrible. I do like SMSL’s ES9039MSPRO-based DACs for the price and leaving it in a spare system. The bigger problem with Topping/SMSL is that product support is nearly non-existent and their sales channels are an absolute nightmare with some genuinely dishonest tactics (such as many burying their ’certified’ no return policy). You’re pretty-much buying a disposable device you anticipate may never get a firmware update and may die at any moment.

I don’t have extensive DAC audition experience, but have heard MBL’s 101 X-tremes at a private audition, which were running through their Sigma Delta-based DAC (not sure the chipset) and I doubt I could tell the difference between SMSL’s D1se2 and their 1611 F. (I’m going off of memory compared to the SMSL running into my 101s, which isn’t a direct comparison.) I ended up buying a Laiv recently and it sounds good, works with how I use my system and isn’t a furnace. Digital audio has come quite a ways from the ’high-end’ soundcards everyone was happily running.

If you are not satisfied with your purchase, feel free to request RMA (Return Merchandise Authorization) within 45 days of the delivery of the order."

@amir_asr - Please read personal experiences of people trying to actually return anything to Apos and a number of other authorized Topping / SMSL retailers.

Here’s a whole thread on Head-Fi, which is actually sponsored by Apos:

Head-Fi Apos Return Experiences

Another thing to point out is that when I was in my 20s, I had no problem buying as-is broken electronics on eBay and fixing them up as I didn’t have much money and all the time in the world. These days, I average ~60-80hr work weeks so while I now have the money to buy nice things, I don’t have the luxury of time.

All these blind listening tests, nightmare sellers and unreliable products cost me more than if I were to spend $10k+ on a working DAC that I can forget about for the next 5 years or so.