You can't hear 4 Hz.
There are many other things that are going on, from the frequency response, difference in distortion in the drivers as well as the dispersion.
The frequency range specifications don't really do enough to tell you how the speaker balance is set.
Enjoy!
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Should also say, as some one who loves 2-way speakers, if you want to hear better bass, consider the room acoustics. They can make your speakers sound bigger and tighter. Talk to GIK Acoustics and in particular ask them about their soffit traps.
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I most recently went from Vandersteen 2Ce Sig II (manufacturer spec -3 dB at 29 Hz) to Thiel CS2.4 (manufacturer spec -3 dB at 33 Hz). Using a tone glide in my system/room, I could hear some output from the Vandersteens down to the mid 20s. With the Thiels, I don’t hear much, if anything, below ~30 Hz.
But in terms of music, the only song in my collection where I could hear a difference in terms of bass *extension* was Tracy Chapman’s "3000 Miles". That song has an organ tone that had at least some weight via the Vandersteens but is barely audible via the Thiels. The Thiels can reproduce everything but the left most key on a piano, so they capture virtually all musical content. In regards to bass *quality*, the Thiels are tighter and better defined than the Vandersteens.
So, yeah, I think it’s possible to hear the difference in bass extension between those Totem models but only on a tiny subset of songs.
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Should I be able to hear more bass with the Forests It depends how much louder the forests can do 28hz than the hawks. If its only 1db you wont hear it. If its 10db you obviously would. Find out how much of a difference there is. |
neither speaker is putting out 28 hz or 32 hz at full volume to the listening position, so many other factors at play...properly set up and with good room acoustics the Forest bass will sound better and deeper... |
You must realize that the specification is measured for a specific response (power level).
At 28-32 Hz the amplitude will be at any where from -3 db to -16 db or more.
Only if the range (25-35 Hz) is audible.
And yes you should be able to discern this difference.
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Good question!
28-32hz - you might be able to feel rather than hear the bass in that range a bit more if a) its in the recording b) the rest of your system has good response down to below 28hz and c) the room acoustics support it, but probably a very marginal difference that may be hard to determine at best.
Many instruments can produce sound in that range, including synthesizer, tuba, bassoon, harp, organ, and piano.
So even if in the recording to start with, speaker response low enough to reproduce it alone does not mean you will hear it.
You can always run test tones through your system and see what happens. |
Totem’s specs say "in room" meaning that 28hz (listed as 30hz on another "spec sheet" near the manual download page) rating requires reinforcement from room boundaries. Every speaker I’ve owned over the last several years have been positioned away from walls to lesson the room boom effect to some degree, and I suggest using a test CD (I have a few of the Stereophile test CDs and they’re great) to see actually how low these things go. My guess is even though Totems are cool well made speakers (Forest Signatures seem very nice), they’re never going to produce much at 28hz without a room doing some of the heavy lifting...that’s sub territory. |
How old are/were the Hawks vs the Forests?
My Forests (not Signatures) took a long time for bass to come in. If the Forests are new vs the Hawks being well-used, I can readily believe it's hard to hear a difference in their bass output (yet). |
You probably need a very beefy high power high current amp into the little Totem’s to have any chance of much that can be heard happening at 28hz. Most amps will probably say uncle first. If the room is smaller rather than larger, that will also help greatly. Those little guys have to do a lot of work to deliver 28hz so the the amplifier has to be able to make up for that. Basic physics....
Good news is Totem is one of the best at getting a lot of very good quality extended sound out of a smaller box (if you provide a suitable amp) so you have a winner there no matter what. |
I had a few friends own the Forest Sig and the Hawk, and while terrific speakers, neither puts out meaningful deep bass out into the room at volume...they probably put out 28hz at - 3 or 6 db, at low volume a foot away from the driver... |
I have the Forest Signatures in a 25 x 25 x 8 ft room. Running full range from Rowland monos with a single sub rolled off at the lowest point available and they are sublime. Which is to say they kick ass. Get a sub and enjoy life. They are fine speakers.
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And how much music is really down in the 30 Hz?
Some experience with live sound suggests less than we think.But I really like my speakers that can hit 20Hz, margin for the music that gets close.
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Forest for the trees, guys. Forest for the trees.
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Two different speakers, given the same ’upstream’ equipment in the same space....?
Doubtful....
Even if a good eq is present ’upstream’, I’d still expect some differences.
Otherwise, why change? Unless you’re needing to look at something else...
And 4hz? $ better spent on a sub....or subs.....and the amp to push them. |
Defy audiophile orthodoxy and get the Schiit Loki EQ for a mere $150, and then crank the bass up as much as you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6oyxHGJbsM Or get a sub or two (or four, according to knowledgeable people on this forum). |
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First of all, comparing the low frequency response specs of two loudspeakers provided by their makers, and thinking that the one whose specified response extends 4Hz lower than the other will do just that, is to buy into unproven marketing claims. Another point to consider is that, as @wolf_garcia stated, even if those specs are correct, they are so only when the standard "room gain" figures are added to the anechoic measurements, and only at a SPL level far below that of the midrange (1kHz is the industry standard measuring frequency) coming from the same driver: remember to look for the + and - qualifiers next to the frequency numbers. Those low-frequency numbers, if true, are at a SPL level far below that of 1kHz. 28Hz, or even "just" 32Hz, from a 5.5" or 6.5" driver? Not at anything above a whisper. As an aside, when did a 5.5" driver (or even 6.5") become considered a woofer?! 5" was for years the size of most midrange drivers, with a 10", 12", or 15" woofer below for bass. A loudspeaker with a 5.5" (or even 6.5") "woofer" requires a sub (or at least a larger driver) to reach down to 32 or 28Hz at anything approaching realistic SPL. Richard Vandersteen didn’t design and market a sub just to have another model to sell! I think a lot of Pop music listeners could happily live with a loudspeaker that cleanly reproduces 41Hz (the lowest tone produced by the 4-string bass, electric or acoustic) at lifelike SPL. The truth is, few can, no matter the claim. John Atkinson's measurements routinely reveal that fact. |
I used to own all Totem speakers for all my different rooms. The difference between the Forest and the Hawks were mainly In the lower frequency range, Forest produced a more full sound. But with every Totem speaker I had except for the Arros, you needed a powerful amp. To get the best sound from my Mani II’s, I used the 1000 watt McIntosh monoblocks. For the Model 1’s, I used a 250 watt Classe amp. For both the Forest or Hawks, I would go with at least an equivalent 250 watt Amp like from Classe, Pass, McIntosh, and the Odyssey monoblocks. I had used all of those amps with Totem speakers with good results. I had the McIntosh ma6500 integrated for a while and it didn’t provide the power that either the Mani’s or model 1’s needed, that’s when I switched to monoblocks and separates.
Speaker positioning is also important in your room. Totem makes a really good speaker that produces full range sound from a smaller speaker. |
@rbstehno , were the Mani 2’s the strongest in the bass regions?
I’ve been enjoying my Arros but want a cleaner top end, fuller bass and the ability to play louder. I’m liking my Arros so much that I’ve considered Hawks as my next speaker; do you think they’d offer me what I’m looking for? |
Depending on your amp, one pair may be easier to drive than the other over those low frequencies...leading to an audible difference I believe the Forest Signature are an easier load than the Hawks at less than 100 Hz but I'm not certain. What amp are you using? If it's high powered SS then this may be a moot point. |
Sigh....
Hopefully you're enjoying the music. |
The truth is, few can, no matter the claim. John Atkinson's measurements routinely reveal that fact. devialet phantom can do below 20hz and kii audio can rattle your windows. |
@tablejockey , as soon as confirmation is received that a person shouldn’t be able tell the difference in 4hz, then and only then will the music resume
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b_limo if that's the case, the poor OP will spend the rest of confinement with disappointment.
Meanwhile, I will go back to listening to my speakers that join the rest of the pack-a box in a real world setup that probably doesn't see anything below 40Hz or so?
At least that's what the wisdom has been telling me for years.
I let the subs to do the dirty work. |
The mani’s are a better speaker than either the Forest or hawk but they are the hardest to drive because of the isobaric woofer setup. I met Vince many times At different shows and he thought the same about the mani’s. Used you can get a pair of mani’s for around $2000, then you need good stands which I used the 4 pillar target stands and filled each pillar with sand. I had multiple pairs of mani’s in different rooms. Don’t skimp on power for any of the totem’s except for the arros. If you like totem and can spend a little bit more, go for the wind, easier to drive then the mani’s and has more fuller sound than the other totems. I sold all of my totems and went with Usher speakers. Big jump in SQ. Totem Are nice speakers
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Here is my 2c if you want to hear it:
- Totem response is +-3 db, while Forest have a -+2 db--> advantage Forest, as at the edge of the spectrum, Forest should sound "louder"...- Totem sensitivity is 88 db while Forest is 87 db --> advantage Totem: again, at the same volume Totem should sound "louder"- and then is the room, the way you have them positioned in the room, the component speakers used and so on ...It is hard to compare stuff w/o making sure you have them at the same sound level, same music track, same place, same situation ...etc.I would say - and this is what i do - always go for what / how you hear and like it. Nothing is perfect, so the beauty is in the eye of the beholder .. ;)
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1. Room acoustics. 2. There is very little energy between 28hz and 32Hz in most music unless it's been put there artificially. If you really want to put the two speakers to the test--assuming you have both available to you--you need to get a test disc with several graduated test tones in that zone. 3. Put on some music you love, and enjoy the improvements wrought by the Forests. |
Totem makes a lovely sub ( actually many models )
tell a fretless bass player there is no audible difference between 4 hz..
Beatle - nice reminder to play More Tracy Chapman in these trying times... |
Also this is a good time to sharpen your tools and ears - get some test tones - Vandertones is a free download off the Vandersteen website 11 bands of warbletones below 120 HZ, get SPL meter and or some iPad based tools ( studio six digital for example ) or REW running on laptop.... improve, learn, fix setup, work on the room, etc... |
@tomic601 , great advice 👍😁 |
Both have small woofers so the bass around 30hz is mostly coming from the ports. In my experience, larger woofers are capable of higher quality bass at lower frequencies than smaller woofers. The larger woofers will probably go lower before the bulk of the output transitions to the lower quality bass coming from the port. |
Hi traceyc. If the recording engineer didn't give it to you, you won't hear anything. Only organs (pipe) are going to give you much down that low. One octave below 32 Hz would be 16 Hz; so musically a 28 Hz note would be in the "La - Ti" range on the scale downhill from the 32 Hz note (being the "Do" - of the do-re-mi-so-la-ti-do scale). A subwoofer will help. They are easy to build and the boxes are simple. Check out the DIY sites. |
To be able to hear the difference, at the very least, the music being played should contain those low frequencies. It's pretty safe to say that most (not all) music doesn't go much lower than about 40 Hz. In a hearing test, I found that I start "hearing" bass at around 36 Hz. Empirical evidence supports it: I feel no lack of bass on tower speakers that go to 30 Hz and even 35 Hz, but I did sense the bass was lacking on towers that go down to 38 Hz, and wound up buying a sub for them that goes to 31 Hz - and it made a world of a difference. So, to answer for your specific situation, between 28 Hz and 32 Hz, if you're like me - you probably won't hear it. But if the 4 Hz in question were between 36 Hz and 40 Hz, or 40 and 44 - you'd probably hear it. |
Should I be able to hear a 4Hz difference in my speakers? https://youtu.be/ogVCRHn17CE?t=24Not if it's un-distorted or not resonating something in the room. Cheers George |
Traceyc didn’t specify what he was using to drive his totem speakers. You need a good powerful amp to drive the better totem speakers. For example, I had a $3000 Yamaha home theater amp and I hooked up my mani’s to it, it sounded like crap, thin, just garbage. My Mcintosh ma6500 at the time was much better controlling the mani’s. But the mani’s blew me away with the 1000 watt Mcintosh monoblocks. I switched to separates. For the next 15 years, I Went from separates to very good high powered integrated amps back to separates. 10 years ago I sold all my totems and went all Usher speakers. With the Ushers just like the Totems, the middle of the line speakers like the model 1’s, forest, hawks, can be used with a good integrated like a hegel, Mcintosh, pass, etc.. with a couple hundred watts. When you move up to the top of the line Speaker like the mani or wind, you need more power that only separates can provide IMO
BTW; going back to the question if you can heat a 4K difference. I went from the usher mini dancer ii speaker with a 28hz low end to the usher x-towers with the 11” Eaton woofer that’s rated to 24hz, I can hear the difference easily when playing music with that content. Not only does it go lower, the 11” woofer provides much cleaner bass than the 2 - 7” mid/woofer of the md ii’s
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There is only 1/4 of an octave difference between 32hz and 28hz. |
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