Selling dispute. Please comment.

In my opinion you have done all you can do and made it right. Done deal.. Move on NO Refund ... Reasonableness must come into play here.

Have you tried or suggested that the two of you speak on the phone? I think email can be pretty brutal sometimes. Taking time to talk it through might help bring this back to a more even keel level. Take the emotion out of it. Discuss it 1:1 and try to come up w/ a fair resolution. Good luck.

Jaxwired, drag the buyer through the mud. Make him put in a claim. I doubt Paypal will side up with you, but they have to take the time to hear your side before giving you a decision. Make some interest off of the schmucks money and do not pay it back until the last possible moment. You seem like you are at least trying to make things right. Good luck. BTW I sopke with Paupal and it will take about 30 days.

Seems pretty "histérico" el buyer to me.

Daniel

"I would also add in the email, the emails between you and the manufacture.... I bet the buyer will understand and be happy." (Jea48)

I bet there's almost no chance that "the buyer will understand and be happy." What's making him happy, is causing this bizarre stink over almost nothing. It sounds like he's trying to "teach the seller a lesson", & his pompous manner.....maybe he's clinically narcissistic? Has he listened to the amps? It doesn't sound like he even cares about the amps, only the manual.

Jaxwired, it sounds like these were expensive amps? You maybe didn't talk to the buyer by phone before the sale?? I once turned down a sale of a $1K TT to some pompous Yuppie type after talking to him on the phone. He was very suspicious, kind of insinuating--w/in the first couple of minutes--that I was some kind of scam artist (??) (even tho he had 0 FB, & I had a lot of great FB), demanding that I bring it over to his place & set it up for him, on & on. And I bet he would have found some tiny thing to make a stink about after the sale, even tho the TT was perfect.

It's all about "me me me me me me me" for those types.....& I think "proving" how superior they are.....I bet all this makes this buyer feel "powerful".....& that he's feeling very, very pleased with himself right now.....

Jea,

That's exactly what I did. Waiting for the buyers response now. Hopefully you are right. Will update this thread when I know more.

Jaxwired,

Email the buyer letting him know you have mailed him the copies of the manuals.

I would also add in the email, the emails between you and the manufacture.... I bet the buyer will understand and be happy.

Rrog- how do you know buyer has been burned before? Are you the buyer? And thanks for letting us know that you call getting a printed pdf of the manual not cutting any slack. Will NEVER sell anything to you. Advise all others to make note. This is absurd. Continue to suggest that seller offer to return buyers $$, less shipping, upon receipt of undamaged amps.

Ok, people, you'll love this. Here is the response from the manufacturer. They emailed me this morning.

Here's what I asked them:

"Hello,

I would like to order the original manual for the XXXX amplifier. I do not want a pdf or to download the pdf of the manual. I want the original manual that comes in the box. Can I order one? "

Here is there response:

"We include only a “quick start guide” (4 double sided pages) with most new XXXX products these days. As such we no longer stock paper copies of complete owner’s manuals. Sorry!"

He included the manual in pdf form in his response. The manual is 16 pages long. They do not include manuals with their new products! So there never were any manuals. Now I have to produce mnauals that never even existed to complete the sale. Great....

I've printed out the pdf at Kinkos. I used their best glossy stock and had it center stapled in magazine format and in COLOR! They look fantastic, like they were professionally published. I have now put them in a hard side priority mail box so they don't get damanged. I will send them out today. That's all I can do.

This buyer has been burned before. Now he's not cutting any slack.

Offer to send him some nice PDF printed, bound at Kinkos with spirol copies and include a "C" note for his aggrevation. If a free high-end dinner doesnt please the buyer than they've gone past the anal part and are now in the colon.
Maybe the buyer would like to give us the other side of the story?
-JD

________________________

Hi Buyer, I'm happy to hear that the amps arrived safely. I sent everything I had. I guess I didn't have the manual. I apologize. I figured it was in one of those white envelopes.

Courteous. Apologetic.
________________________

You can download the full manual and print out a copy if you need to. Here is the link: @^^#%#%^&@ Again, I'm sorry it was missing from the box."

Regretful. Helpful.
________________________

No, Seller. You had to have known there was no manual, but yet you sold it as mint with a manual.

Suppositional. Suspicious.
________________________

Either get me an original manual or you can have the amps back.

Peremptory. Rude.
________________________

Buyer, I will contact the manufacturer on Monday to order the manual from them. I will attempt to have them ship directly to your address.

OR, I can go to kinkos with the downloaded pdf and print out a 2 sided color copy of the manual (on good paper stock) center stapled in magazine format and ship it out today. This would be a $20 expense, but I am willing to do that to get you the manual today. Let me know.

Cooperative. Considerate.
_________________________

Ok, Seller, you will get me an original manual to complete the sale.

Aggressive. Imperious.

(Please send all messages through Audiogon). I want to deal only with people who do exactly what they say they will do, nothing more and certainly nothing less.

Hostile. Derogatory.
_________________________

I bought an original manual, so I want it. If you contact the manufacturer to get it, please have it sent directly to me. If I don't hear from you by Tuesday, 28 August 2012, on when I will receive the Owner's Reference manual then I will notify Audiogon and PayPal.

Disproportional. Menacing.
_________________________

IMO, of course.

Bryon

....... "the buyer needs to ship them back at his expense (PayPay rules)"..........
08-27-12: Buconero117
Plus the buyer better insure the two amps.

"No, Seller. You had to have known there was no manual, but yet you sold it as mint with a manual. Either get me an original manual or you can have the amps back."
08-27-12: Jaxwired

Jaxwired, Is that true you listed the amps as "mint" with manual?

I am not going to try to tell you what to do......

I would suggest you go to kinkos and have 2 copies of the manual printed. Then send the two manuals to the buyer with a note, again saying you are sorry for not checking the boxes for the manuals.

Email the buyer telling him you have sent him the manuals, to let him know they are on the way.

Just remember you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar...
.

Seller. Call your bank and let them know not to release any money to Paypal. Make the buyer put in a claim and make him wait 45 days to get a refund. In the meantime you'll get your amps back. Make sure to have the delivery man take them back to USPS Fed Ex or where ever they came from and open the boxes in front of witnesses and take pictures to make sure you received everything back and that there is no damage to the amps.

My first response to the buyer:
"Hi Buyer,

I'm happy to hear that the amps arrived safely. I sent everything I had. I guess I didn't have the manual. I apologize. I figured it was in one of those white envelopes. You can download the full manual and print out a copy if you need to. Here is the link: @^^#%#%^&@

Again, I'm sorry it was missing from the box."

His response:

"No, Seller. You had to have known there was no manual, but yet you sold it as mint with a manual. Either get me an original manual or you can have the amps back."

My response:

"Buyer,

I will contact the manufacturer on Monday to order the manual from them. I will attempt to have them ship directly to your address.

OR, I can go to kinkos with the downloaded pdf and print out a 2 sided color copy of the manual (on good paper stock) center stapled in magazine format and ship it out today. This would be a $20 expense, but I am willing to do that to get you the manual today. Let me know."

His Response:

"Ok, Seller, you will get me an original manual to complete the sale. (Please send all messages through Audiogon). I want to deal only with people who do exactly what they say they will do, nothing more and certainly nothing less. I bought an original manual, so I want it. If you contact the manufacturer to get it, please have it sent directly to me. If I don't hear from you by Tuesday, 28 August 2012, on when I will receive the Owner's Reference manual then I will notify Audiogon and PayPal."

Almost forgot, the buyer is obviously an Obama person, still waiting for 'Hope and Change' since the original message was not authentic.

When all is said, yes 58 of them, the buyer needs to ship them back at his expense (PayPay rules) and thus be out this shipping cost as a statement of his foolishness.

Elizabeth, I agree with you. It does seem the buyer is being petty, but we are only hearing the seller's side of the story. Maybe if we only heard the buyer's side we would think the seller is a jerk. Also, we do not know how this was handled by the seller at first mention of the manuals not being included.

The buyer should be willing to accept your apology and a pdf of the mauual. If not, then offer him a refund.

Wow, this buyer needs to look up "anal" in the dictionary.

Okay, I agree with most of the comments I've read here. Yes, technically you have failed to provide what you promised. OTOH, many manuals, such as those for my Maggies, are actually just themselves photocopies. So this situation is, in fact, situation dependent. If the original manual was all nice and spiffy, then you should try to procure the original manual. If it was just a photocopy to begin with then what does he expect? Does he want you to improve on the original document? That is patently ridiculous.

As for needing two copies... That seems a bit much. Why? One for each eye? One for the home theater and one for the bathroom? What? I suppose in case he sells them later, but even then we are talking peanuts.

Listen, I don't blame the guy for being a little irked and he is probably putting you thru the ringer because he felt you misled him, but if you hadn't sent him both amps that would be entirely different, or if they weren't as described. I like to have original manuals as well, and almost everyone who knows me describes as anal, so it says something that even I think this is a bit much.

Just my $.02 (current valuation $.000001)

"I recently sold a pair of mono amps and checked the box that indicated the original manual was included."

I find it interesting that so many people here think the buyer is a jerk because he expected to receive what was advertised. We have no idea what communication took place between jaxwired and the buyer. We are hearing one side of the story, but there is always two sides to every story.

Jaxwired is negligent no matter how you look at it. There was no attention to detail even during preparation for shipping.

"I never use the manual for something like this and just assumed the manual was in the box as there were some various papers from the manufacturer in the box.

I have had to return two items in the last couple of years and I should have returned more because sellers are not accurately describing the equipment they are selling. My money was refunded, but it cost me $100 in shipping to find out the bottoms of the speakers were so chewed up from spikes the wood was peeling off the bottom, the grill had snags and the foam around the tweeter needed to be replaced. Because of the problems I have had I am becoming less tolerant of sellers. Maybe this is the case with the buyer in this sale with Jaxwired.

Per several others, I agree:
1. Buyer is an a$$hole of the lowest order.
2. Buyer deserves nothing more than the best reproduction of the manual you can provide. Many, many products do not ship w hard copy manual these days.
3. If buyer funded pp via a credit card, you may be in a tight spot.
4. Your "error" was harmless/negligible.
5. Your offer to provide a manual negates the error.
6. When you purchase via mail order few sellers provide refund for shipping in either direction.
7. I agree w others that your most pragmatic solution may be to offer a refund, less shipping, to be credited to "buyer" after receipt in same condition, shipped at "buyer's" expense and risk.

best thing about this thread is that several of the old audiogon gang are still here! I do think the buyer is being unreasonable ( to say the very least), and you are being most kind and thoughtful.

You need to make the buyer put in a claim first or return the item. Do NOT sign for it when it is delivered. Have the driver take it back to USPS, FED EX UPS or wherever and then go there and open it in front of them and a witness (and take pictures) to make sure there is no damage and that everything you sent him is in the box. I had someone strip parts off of a cassette deck once and I had a Sheriff come to my house and make out a police report but Paypal would not help me. I resold the deck after purchasing the missing parts and downloaded a manual for the new buyer. Unfortunately for the first buyer, I had his work # and with the help of a few friends, lots of quarters and pay phones, made his life a living hell untill they told me he was no longer employeed there after 3 weeks. I followed up on the calls every few weeks to make sure. I hope it doesn't come down to that but you have to be careful. You should call Paypal to ask how claims work so you'll know how to proceed. Just don't beleive that will go to bat for you in a dispute, the buyers Credit Card Co. makes the final decision. Best of luck.

Since this fellow has already threatened to dispute, if you can't get an original manual, I would offer the full refund & if he accepts, you'll know he wanted a way to back out. In the long run it'll be easier to resell than deal w/a dispute.

I've made copies of original manuals (Threshold comes to mind) that turned out better than the originals & the buyer was quite happy.

I don't think the lack of a manual or a copy makes an amp any less expensive (or desirable).

Well a little story once i sold my beautiful Dali speakers Helikon 800mk2
Original packing and extra outside we spent two days packing them.
My friend and i brough them to the ups truck ourselves.
When they get to destination were damage, owner claimed to credit card.
Credit card to paypal and my account was negat 4500 us dollars.
I brough ups to court but unfort i was overseas on graduate school at the time hearing took place if ever happened. No insurance save you, when you insured is trough a rip off company somewhere with trained people to speak like computers saying you did not package as per ups rules on and on.
End of the story my Dalis are on storage and will never ever used paypal again zero rights for sellers.
I ordered parts from Austria when i return to the US i will fix them and no sell them at any money.
Painful story maybe out of context but just cross my brain, still a fresh wound.
Regards

Lloyd & Joe (Trelja), your points are of course well taken. But being on solid ground legally, as well as morally and by any other reasonable measure, doesn't necessarily equate to a practical solution.

In this case, the buyer is threatening to "kill the deal and dispute with audiogon and paypal." At best, that would lead to a lot of hassle and wasted time. At worst, it would lead to a charge-back, and possibly to the items being received back in damaged condition (as Mark rightly pointed out). And with the buyer being the party to whom the shipping service is contractually obligated, in terms of a possible insurance settlement! Which is why I said that as a practical matter Jaxwired is essentially stuck with having to negotiate, no matter how rightful his position may be.

Regards,
-- Al

CAREFUL! If the unit was paid through Paypal using a CC the buyer can demand a chargeback. Not as described. I hate to hear about things happening like this, but I think the buyer simply changed his mind. Did he sign for the package? That may be the sellers way out, but even if it is, the seller should do all he can to make it right and get the original manuals into the buyers hands.

Lloydc, "No other lawyers here? Seller substantially performed, so Buyer has no right to reneg or undo the deal after delivery. Damages are calculated based on the financial loss the Buyer incurred due to Seller's inadvertant misrepresentation, which in this case, are trivial, or the difference in price between the value of the item as represented and the value of the item as delivered, which again, is a trivial difference. This is not the same case as a unique antique or collectable, where specific performance can be the applicable standard."

I've never considered myself a fan of lawyers, but I find your post the paragon of both reason and common sense.

A lot of good points made here. I want to add the risk involving shipping these back to the seller. I'm assuming these amps are heavy, and we all know how UPS & Fedex love to damage heavy items.
IMO, this matter could get a lot worse just because of a missing owners manual.

You didn't say who the amp manufacturer is. There are some that produce nicely-printed manuals, but many others for which the PDF you'd print at home is as good OR BETTER than what ships new.

Like most things in life, you play your own hand. At this point, certain facts have occurred and this really boils down to your desired outcome, which you can largely influence.
On one hand, you have your money, the buyer has the amps and a "copy" of the manual, and you can simply say "enough," or "piss off," - your choice. As Lloydc indicates, you substantially performed and damages are likely limited to the potential loss of resale value due to the missing "original" (vs. copied) manual - e.g. small. The likely outcome with this solution is that you will receive negative feedback and the buyer will not bother taking you to court over a stinkin' owner's manual.
On the other hand, you could ask the buyer "how can we resolve this so that you are satisfied and we simply forget feedback?" Be ready for requests ranging from a partial refund to return of the amps and full refund. This outcome probably results in some level of hassle and pain to your wallet, but does not affect your feedback, assuming the buyer agrees.
The cards are dealt, it really boils down to how you want to play it.

I hope I truly never run into this buyer. What next, no warranty card? Yes, the seller had a small miscue. What would happen if the original shipping boxes got damaged in transit? Will that be a reason to demand a refund too?

Unless, the seller advertised the item as a time capsule type piece, 10, and thus, sold at a premium, and the item is were rare and almost one of a kind, I would say the seller has gone beyond the call of duty

I would refund the money, MINUS shipping. The guy is being a prick, plain and simple. Once you get the amps back and verify they work, I would then give the buyer NEGATIVE feedback to let everyone know what a picky bastard he or she is.

He is really just looking for an excuse to get his money back. He is buying USED, so one should expect things like this.

No other lawyers here? Seller substantially performed, so Buyer has no right to reneg or undo the deal after delivery. Damages are calculated based on the financial loss the Buyer incurred due to Seller's inadvertant misrepresentation, which in this case, are trivial, or the difference in price between the value of the item as represented and the value of the item as delivered, which again, is a trivial difference. This is not the same case as a unique antique or collectable, where specific performance can be the applicable standard.

Seems as if the answer depends upon whose ox is being gored. At least with most of you. If it does not matter if the manual is there, why should it matter if the seller's idea of 9/10 is a little different from yours? What difference does a little dent make? It does not affect the performance. Esp if the seller is willing to pay for a can of spary paint. I bet a lot of you would be 'unreasonable' then.

I surely hope the buyer has been reading this thread. He just may come around and realize how unreasonable he's being.

Or not.

All the best,
Nonoise

IMO, the buyer is being an unconscionable jerk. What kind of FB does he have? Any? I'd love to know his A*gon ID so I'd never sell anything to him.

I saw some others here who pointed out YOUR mistake. Yes, you made a tiny, tiny, TINY mistake. But he can easily get a copy of the manual? Was the original printed on gold leaf & engraved by monks or something? I hope I never encounter this character.

How about this: offer to buy him a bottle of Xanax, & maybe pay for a couple of psychiatrist sessions. But If you get the amps back, pray he hasn't wrecked them.

End of rant, & Good Luck!

I once purchased a component from an A'gon seller who by all accounts is conscientious and meticulous in his many transactions, and the descriptions he provides, to a degree that is absolutely extraordinary. In this case his description of the item was precise down to the level of a small smudge near the rear of the component that was invisible unless illuminated and viewed at precisely the right angle. His packing job, on an easy to pack relatively small rectangular electronic component, was so exceptional that it probably took him most of a day to do. Nevertheless, the ad indicated that the manual was included, and it was not. I politely asked about this, and he was unable to find it. So I downloaded the pdf and that was that.

Given that the amps are not vintage collectables, I agree with the comments by Bryon and others that the person is being completely unreasonable, whatever his motivations may be. Unfortunately, though, if you cannot obtain two original manuals ("original" per whatever definition he insists on), you are stuck with having to negotiate some resolution with him. Various approaches to doing that have already been suggested.

Regards and good luck,
-- Al

Thank you to everyone that has commented. I appreciate all the different viewpoints.

Unfortuneatly some get somehing stuck in their craw and can't let go. I think we all possess a little of this trait. Sad to say the ad read "manual included" and therfor if the manual in not there, the sale is not complete. But if you do obtain a manual from the manufacture, don't open the envelope leave it sealed so that he will know it as a factory original, or better yet have it sent directly to him. If it is not available then I would suggest offering him a partial refund for the cost of printing a PDF manual and a little something to compensate him for the trauma he seems to be going thru. But let him have it printed at Kinkos or you may be chasing your tail again with a "I wanted 20# paper and you used 18# copier stock" complaints. Now, personnaly I like to have the original, call it a quirk, but I feel I would be much more upset if it had a knob missing or a dent. After all it is an amp, most are capable of connecting an amp without the instructional DVD. Yes he is being a "pain" but he had expectations based upon the advertisment. Tough call for both sides, good luck, some times a buyer can be a challenge. But after more than 30 years in sales , most situations can be resolved with reasoning and appeal to sensible logic.

I realize that the buyer is technically in the right here, as the item was advertised as coming w/ a manual, but come on -- how much of a manual do you even need for mono blocks? This isn't some complicated A/V receiver or all-in-one disk player, its a power amp for goodness sake. I'm sure the specs are available on the internet & there was probably no schematic in the manual to begin with, so what else is there? How to turn it on or something???

Batch

You didn't know that the manuals were missing? How do you know that they weren't in the box? Maybe they were. Keep us posted if you get the original manuals, and if the buyer still wants to back out. Good luck.

If I put myself in the buyer's shoes I'd feel a bit cheated. Strong word I know but the ad was misleading. Like you though Jax, I wouldn't have any need for the paper manual and your apology would be sufficient.
If this buyer is insistent on the original manual I would cancel the sale and have the amps returned. Move on to the next buyer.

To those who say that the absence of a manual diminishes the value of the amps, I would ask them to provide evidence for that claim for the amps in question.

Hopefully the manufacturer will provide you with a replacement manual. But I wouldn't be surprised if your buyer objected to that, since Audiogon ads say "original accessories" and the replacement manual isn't the "original" manual. That sounds absurd, but so does demanding a refund on the basis of a manual. What is the feedback of the buyer like?

Jax, I agree with you on all counts. I respect that other people feel differently, but frankly I'm surprised you don't have more support on this. IMO, there are only two explanations for the buyer's behavior...

1. Buyer's remorse.
2. OCPD.

Neither one is your problem.

Bryon

On that point, I see clearly wrong ads all the time. In fact, the guy that sold me these exact amps, his ad said they came with "Remote". He checked the "Remote Included" box on his ad when he listed it. Now, of course power amps don't have remotes. However, should I make him give me my money back because he did not ship the remotes?

Of course that's not really the same situation. Yes, the buyer is being more exacting than most of us would be, but there's no real value in speculating about why he's being difficult. You clearly want to do the right thing. If you can't get an original manual from the manufacturer (and you might ask them whether they come one per pair of monoblocks), then have him ship the stuff back to you and refund him all of the money when you have them. I'd make it very clear, though, that if there's a fingerprint on them, you'll send them right back to him. (And I'd arrange to check them out before officially taking delivery.)

Perhaps the buyer has an alterior motive in wanting the deal cancelled and is simply using the lack of manual as his out. If for some reason he was disappointed with the amps (sound, looks, smell, etc.), he may be trying to reverse the sale due to his buyer's remorse. Integrity is subjective, and with some, totally absent.

John