Ridiculous assertions that someone is being ripped off or conned
How many times has this scenario played out here? Someone purchases product X, and tries it in their system. They report positive results, that it works as advertised, that they got their money’s worth, that they are happy with the purchase. Then someone, usually having zero experience with the product, replies with something like: “No, you’ve got it all wrong! You’re being ripped off! You’re being conned!
Does anyone else understand how ridiculous and absurd these kinds of assertions are?! The consumer who actually put up their own money and took the time to evaluate the product in their own home/system reports it works as advertised, they are happy with it, that they got their money’s worth. Then someone else claims they were ripped off?!
Imagine an agency investigating consumer fraud getting a complaint like this: “My neighbor is being ripped off!” “No, no, he thinks it’s great, does everything he expected it to. He’s very happy with it, but I just know he’s being conned!” Do you seriously think they’re going to open any kind of investigation into it?
You can disagree with what someone says about the effectiveness of a product all you want, but to say they have been defrauded, when they report the exact opposite, is patently ridiculous.
Understood. In most cases that should and does work fine.
But we are rapidly approaching the point where ’opting out’ of the conflict that is encountered... where the insanity of such projections in weakness of mental capacity, hearing capacity, reasoning capacity and civility in relations... where those projections in/of violence -are being a detriment to the forum and it’s intent. It’s tearing the place apart.
At that point, if the forum is valued by the members, at all...one has to stop turning the other cheek.. and make it clear, that this poorly reasoned position (and continual projection) of ’hatred and violence’ toward others who are working to advance audio...that this insanity - has to be countered.
Canuck audio tames it by having a cable and tweak area for threads. Where any counter to the idea that such things are functional (in attempt or in analysis), is not tolerated.
Meaning.. threads where people discuss tweaks, or mods or cables and so on, if a naysayer posts there, and interrupts the discussion, in any way, they get their posts deleted. And...if the given naysayer can’t hold their tongue, after said deletion-ish warnings..... they will, rapidly, via any repeats in behavior, find themselves banned from the forum. They have to grow up, or get lost.
Sooner or later the wild grass needs to be trimmed, otherwise it will entropically destroy the Raison d’être attempt of taming the wilds of the unknowns in audio.
The maximal aspects of ’the good being the enemy of the great’ are at play here. The nasty group can be more violent, in the real world and in projections on paper or in posting. That fundamental in such projections - it inevitably has to be countered, otherwise we become lesser in connectivity and in our entire society/culture.
If one values audio (as a vehicle to deliver satisfaction via music) do not let the Pol Pots of the mundane world of average intellect and capacity - force their retrograding nightmare upon the fabric of Audio. A little knowledge, is a dangerous thing. Hard core Dunning-Kruger is at play here.
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Albert Einstein.
The dark twist, is that they think they are doing the good in the audio world. I’m pretty sure that Pol Pot thought he was doing the same.
Many come here to learn. To let unproven claims and fantastical benefits go without criticism does us all a disservice. Mockery may cross the line but it has been an accepted practice of discounting emotionally based assumptions. The fishing lure does not have to lure the fish.
One more thing, if your English is not so good please post in your original language and let us translate. I am almost thinking some of these posters are trolls.
I believe you are correct re: trolls. Tubebuffer is a perfect example: aggressive, insulting, arrogant and a remarkable consistency to his inconsistency with the language. Reminds me somewhat of @digitalviper.
There are those here that, without ever trying them, somehow know for absolute certain that particular products are “scams” or “ripoffs”, that there is no possible way that they can have any effect on the sound of anyone's system. That is their opinion, and they are entitled to hold and express it.
However, their actions and behavior go way beyond expressing their own opinion. They are completely intolerant of any differing opinion. Any positive mention of said products offends them so much that they have to suppress it. They do this by incessantly making posts that are mocking, insulting, degrading and provocative to anyone who dares to disagree with them. They become self-appointed censors, and make it clear that if you post positively about certain things, they will make you pay. Many others, who wish to to share their experiences and opinions in a respectful, civilized environment, without vicious personal attacks, decide not to. The censors win, and the forum is degraded.
The thought process that one must try all products in order to form an opinion is ridiculous. An impossible condition. To dispute puffery in a court of law insures failure. To dispute it on a forum, well, as one put it so succinctly, a free sandbox. So get over it.
One more thing, if your English is not so good please post in your original language and let us translate. I am almost thinking some of these posters are trolls.
Sadly I have come to the conclusion that many buy based on things other than logic, knowledge and listening beforehand. I used to comment far more about silliness in audio but decided that if someone wants to throw money around and it makes them happy, by all means do so. All have opinions and some have informed opinions and I will leave it to the reader as to where he stands if it even matters.
I am amused at the prices charged on many things and I tip my hat to those who have effective sheep shears.
I never had to research how the food I consumed going through my internal organs and my body takes nutrients and lets out garbage. I go to my favorite restaurant and order my favorite dish to enjoy, never questioning how the cook cooked it and why it tastes good to me. I never wanted to find out how the internet works and how I could type and post my thoughts just as I am doing it now. Perhaps I am not of inquisitive mind, or there are other things that interest me more. One thing is for unshakably sure in audio: I know for whose pleasure I build my system and listen to music. No need for further discussion.
Yeah, I don't understand those who are sooooo concerned about how others spend their money.
Especially those who have not tried something for themselves in their own set ups. But boy oh boy, do they ever know what is a waste of money to them. And because it's a waste of money to them, it's gotta be a waste of money to everyone. And they don't need to try it, because they just know it's a big scam.
Personally, I reserve judgement on something until I have tried it for myself. And for the most part, I don't have any skin in the game. I just try stuff. If it works, great, if it doesn't, I move on.
Too many are very closed minded, and it's not enough for them to have an opinion about something they have not tried, they need to convince others who have tried, and who found a benefit from whatever the thing is, that they are wrong in their findings.
I apologize for comments made by knuckle dragging liberal and I try to buy this site and make button so you can tune these people with such comment out. I proud that you take all this punishment like man and still stand after all this years. You become better audiophile on righteous path to goal of musicality deliver by man upstair.
@jerrybjmany of us have tried these sticks, stones, generators, gems and as one put it goop. Yes some have had success (?) for me only the goop worked but I did not sing from the mountain top and put it in every post (@millercarbon) .
Mind you I sent all the sticks, stones, gems, and generators back to Shiceters that sell that crap.
I have been on the receiving end of some unpleasant comments by some on here.
Though, as many, I'm in pursuit of the best sound I can get from my system.
Many of the tweaks I have added, have made an improvement.
Most of those I cannot explain how it could possibly be.
Some of the additions have had no discernable impact on my music.
I do not tell others how good these ones are. For me, my system, or my ears; no observable difference.
What irks me most are those who argue vehemently, that most of my tweaks cannot possibly work, without having tried them.
I've been belittled, called gullible, insane, a shiller, a patsy, a voodoist, snake oil messiah, a train wreck, inept, diseased, delusional, and in need of a lobotomy.
I have been questioned on my experiences, intent, honesty, sanity, and intelligence.
All over my experiences from products supposed to aid my enjoyment of music.
Yes I see this before. I also see where small group guys get stiffie over products and fall in love like bunch of teen girls and nonstop defend product and tell people that don't like it that it must not be broke in or have wrong cable or vibration not right etc. soon you find they all sell and forget about product like old hag getting rid handbag. These guy need attention to be right more than logical. Lot of idiot here because they sit on bottom all day.
@samuel03I like Geoff and miss him on the forum. Hope he's well. However this article is out there. Maybe he's a genius and knows things we don't. Or not.
I once defended Geoff and his Clever Little Clock in another thread and I am gonna do it one more time. I bought one in 2008. Before I ordered one I talked with Geoff over the phone and I thought he was a nice gentleman. And the clock worked for me. It is still on the audio shelf of mine. It is not going anywhere. I am not telling anyone to get one. Heck, when I was young I seldom listened to mom. I am telling you it worked for me and telling those specific people to leave him alone. Another time, I bought some stuff from him and it turned out I didn’t like its effect on my system. He took it back without any trouble and gave me refund immediately. I like to deal with someone like him. Good day!
I pretty much agree with Tommy. I do not like somebody else telling me whether or not I actually like something, and if I like something they don't, or vice-versa, they'll say I'm being 'scammed'. Fortunately, almost nobody ever says that to me! 😀
As a side note to all who have taken potshots at the appearance of the QSA stones, I won't argue with you there. I can see why millercarbon says they look like little cowpies😉 I still greatly appreciate what they bring sonically, though.
Yet people were calling for a ban of some members here. One in particular from down under.
That's your opinion. Do you have any tolerance or respect for differing ones? Or, like some, do you think it's the only acceptable one, that all others are offensive and must be suppressed/censored/eliminated by constant ridicule, derision, false arguments, accusations and whatever other means are necessary?
Case in point - Nobsound springs - precision made with the parts alone worth more than the $35 they cost. But sound quality improvement value is up there in the $00s or more. A bag of stones for $00s with minimal audible improvement is where it gets hairy for me.
Apples for oranges @tommylionRocks are rocks and if you think colored stones, stick, twigs, cat pee or tin foil hats make your system sound better then good for you. I do not think any less of you or @millercarbon.
That is the only thing to take into consideration.
The inference that everyone needs a HERO to speak up for them is insulting to say the least..
I have NEVER heard of a single person that was ripped off or unhappy at the end of their endeavor with Money back guarantees. Audiophilers are pretty smart.
Insulting? What do you think.. The brawd brush of EVERYONE need help is just a little to "KING" like for me, maybe "Queen" like.
They LOVE to protest on behalf of others, BUT there is no one to protest for..
Picking a fight and the only one in the room is THEM.. LOL
"I can't help it, but if someone if extolling the virtues of a component like a DAC or media server, I am completely on board with that discussion. However, if someone is putting what looks like a stone cow pie with a cheap label on their equipment and exclaiming it's virtues, I am just more skeptical. To me, it just screams "scam". No different than the Clever Little Clock. Without any technical data or supporting scientific basis for what the product is supposed to do, it's just another way for someone to finance their retirement."
That's your opinion. Do you have any tolerance or respect for differing ones? Or, like some, do you think it's the only acceptable one, that all others are offensive and must be suppressed/censored/eliminated by constant ridicule, derision, false arguments, accusations and whatever other means are necessary?
Judging someone or a product is possible AFTER trying the product...
If someone think that the written science with no further experiment explain anything about sounds experience, he is deluded...
Like scapegoating, claiming fraud or scam is the easiest thing to do when we dont want to experiments or dont need to...
I never recommended anything costing more than a few bucks... For me the organized "scam" is sometimes the refusal to experiment and the continuous insistance on "electronical design measured informations" to be the ONLY valid facts to know... The "upgrade urge" everywhere push by all magazines is the most evident potential scam for me....
With no money, i never had the choices anyway, save to experiment with peanuts cost solutions... Total success...
What ticks me off is when someone, disagreeing with what someone else reports, effectively says “You disagree with me, therefore what you’re saying can’t be true. You’re either being deceived, or you are lying.” That is true arrogance.
I can't help it, but if someone if extolling the virtues of a component like a DAC or media server, I am completely on board with that discussion. However, if someone is putting what looks like a stone cow pie with a cheap label on their equipment and exclaiming it's virtues, I am just more skeptical. To me, it just screams "scam". No different than the Clever Little Clock. Without any technical data or supporting scientific basis for what the product is supposed to do, it's just another way for someone to finance their retirement.
Even when presented with incontrovertible evidence many people cannot admit they have been scammed. Evidence actually makes the scammed hold on tighter to their delusions. Facts cannot compete with truths. Just because you're happy doesn't mean everybody else has to agree with you. Think about the allegory -- are you in the cave or in the light?
I, like the OP. has been annoyed by these truths too much repeated that customers are most of the times deceived by their hopes,marketing ploys, and biases and placebos...It is true to say that but audio is a learning road...And most products are good to try if we want to travel the road...No denigrating is needed...
For sure i experienced this truth with ALL products i bought to upgrade my system to some degree especially in the beginning when I was unsatified ...No upgrades in spite of their improvement were working enough though...
The reason is simple:
i was not mature enough in audio to know how to work on the essentials key factors in audio: embedding controls and especially acoustic...
Acoustic experiments are listenings experiments...They dont always lie, and even when they lied you will be able to discern and master the truth which lay behind or in front of the acoustic "lie" anyway ...
We can control acoustic almost "at will" mechanically with Helmhotz method and with passive treatment... Mastering "illusions" from our brain is part of the acoustic experience not his foe....
I dont like to be accused of being conned by myself or conning others using cheap "herkimer diamonds" or S.G. or ionizers for example with my main mechanical acoustical device....
Most people think audio is a string of purchases...
I think audio is a string of experiments...Be them a new purchase or not....
There is a different version: the "I could get the parts and do it myself for 1/10th the (retail) cost" crowd -- people who have very little grasp of amortizing fixed and development costs and covering current costs of running a business. But no, it's all a "rip off". Don't like the price? You don't have to buy. But don't denigrate someone who thinks that the product is worth it to them.
This is a common assertion. It’s an opinion, which is perfectly fine.
The result will likely be questions.
On one end of the spectrum, if X = some well known amplifier, there are many facts out there in many places probably over a period of time that support the claim.
On the other end of the spectrum, if its a relatively unknown product with few or no facts out there to support the claim, be prepared for all kind of responses, including some very strong challenges. If you are not prepared to offer up some facts to support the case and respond to the challenge, best to just keep quiet. You have nothing more you can offer at that point. Trying to censure or silence the challenger will likely accomplish nothing for anybody. If they are being insulting or breaking forum rules, that’s a foul and its fair game to flag the response as such.
Truth or dare. That is the question. Let me say that when I am reading a customer's experience with a product, there is plenty of doubt on both sides. Yes, there are those trying to get rich quick. Then there is a consumer who has poor knowledge about the application of the purchased product. It would be foolish for to buy a streaming device right now, since I know close to nothing about them. If I went ahead and bought one, there would be a very good chance that I would be disappointed. Even worse, is the documentation that would come with such a product, providing someone like myself nothing more than added strife. Ok, so maybe you get a set of speakers and hate them. Does that make them defective? You get my point. Don't worry we all have been cheated by sellers who either are out to get us, or maybe don't even have a clue to what they are selling. Then they are taken back at our complaint.
“I always tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt initially except for obvious scams. Then let things play out over time and see what happens. The best one can shoot for is to make educated decisions based on facts and yes perhaps even opinions, if there is a common pattern to the opinion and enough facts to back it up.”
I agree, and take a similar approach.
What ticks me off is when someone, disagreeing with what someone else reports, effectively says “You disagree with me, therefore what you’re saying can’t be true. You’re either being deceived, or you are lying.” That is true arrogance.
I always tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt initially except for obvious scams. Then let things play out over time and see what happens. The best one can shoot for is to make educated decisions based on facts and yes perhaps even opinions, if there is a common pattern to the opinion and enough facts to back it up.
For example, someone created a thread containing a questionable url in a link on their first post the other day offering information that nobody had asked for. I reported it as an apparent phishing attempt and the thread was quickly removed.
“It’s absurd to act like high end audio is some kind of utopia immune to the world’s sins and that what people say about things they buy or perhaps even are given by others to promote (who knows?) are undeniable facts.”
Accusations about people being schills are thrown around willy nilly, but no one ever provides any actual evidence of it. Truth is, most of the time, we really have no way of knowing if someone is being honest or not in a forum post.
Given that, for the sake of communication and dialog, I’m willing to assume you are being honest when you report something, unless I have real evidence otherwise. That doesn’t mean I’m going to make any decisions based solely on what you say. I also wouldn’t expect anyone else to make decisions based solely on what I say. I expect others to investigate, and try, or decide not to try, things for themselves.
Lancelock when I buy a new gear, I don’t invite my audiobuddy to listen anymore on my new gear. I realize they want your system to sound like theirs.I only invite one of my friend who is very neutral on assessing my system.I agree after all letting this guy audition your stuff , and bad mouth you? Not acceptable.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
